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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 07 2009,06:45) Hi TT,
The dead of Israel are raised as in Ez 37, bones and flesh, to be ruled by their appointed King, Jesus Christ.
Then will Jl 2 find it's fulfillment.
Nick,
Are we still talking about the new earth?
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 07 2009,07:05) Hi TT,
No the time is the Millenium before the new earth is shown in Rev21.
Why are you switching to your supposed millennium when we have been talking about the new earth?Anyway, Peter said that the pouring out of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost was the fulfillment of Joel 2. Sorry.
thinker
Hi TT,
No Peter pointed to a type, a similar manifestation of the outpouring of the Spirit promised in Scripture.
The heavenly signs and general outpouring on Israel as in Joel did not occur at Pentecost.I haven't really been following the discussion on this general topic (why so many new threads?!?!), so I hope I'm not covering old ground.
One of the problems with preterism is that you have to alegorise A LOT of eschatological scripture. So me, having a literalists bent, am never going to be comfortable with it. One thing that is clear to me is that Yeshua is quite explicitly prophesied to reign as King from the throne of David (an Earthly throne) on Mount Zion (Isaiah 2:2-4, Isaiah 9:6-7, Isaiah 24:23, Zech 14:9,16-17, Luke 1:32). It's hard to see how you could read these prophecies with an alegorical understanding, physical locations are named.
Christ is currently not reigning from Mt Zion in Jerusalem. The inhabitants of the Earth are currently not going “up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths” (Zech 14:16). Etc etc…
These prophecies have clearly not yet been fulfilled.
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 07 2009,06:48) Explain how sinners can live on the futurist's notion of the new earth (Is. 65:20). thinker
Yeshua will not hand over the Kingdom to His Father until all rule, authority and power has been abolished, He must reign until all enemies have been put under His feet (1 Cor 15:24-25). This will not occur until after Satan has been loosed a little while to deceive the nations one last time (Rev 20:7), and this will not happen until after the 1000 year reign of Christ has consummated.Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 06 2009,14:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 07 2009,03:59) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 06 2009,11:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 06 2009,08:22) Hi TT,
Indeed the children of Israel will know times of blessing when Jesus rules over them from Jerusalem in the Millenium.
Nick,
It clearly says that children are “brought forth” on the new earth. It says that they will be the “descendants” of the blessed of the Lord. Uh, Nick, the word “descendants” means that there is procreation on the new earth (THIS earth covenantally renewed).There is no getting around these statements.
thinker
JackThen you must accept that the “New Covenant” is the “Old Covenant” renewed.
He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. “They will perish“, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment “they will be changed“. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.” Heb 1:10-12
“Perish” is defined as 1) to destroy a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
“Changed” is defined as 1) to change, to exchange one thing for another, to transform
This has not happened yet Jack!
Blessings Keith
Keith,
I am very glad you pointed out that the word “perish” means “to put out of the way entirely.” This is exactly what Peter said about the pre-flood earth. He said that it “perished.” According to Strong's this means to “destroy FULLY” (# 622). So by your logic the earth we live on today is not the same earth that Noah lived on before the flood. You may as well adopt the theory that sinners will not be punished but annihilated. For the annihilationists apply “apollumi” as you do saying that the unrighteous will “come to an end.”The old and new covenants were the Abrahamic covenant under two administrations.
The earth has indeed been “changed.” It is under Christ now instead of Moses.
Explain how sinners can live on the futurist's notion of the new earth (Is. 65:20).
thinker
JackYou are equivocating and totally ignoring the Text in Hebrew 1:10-12.
Context Jack, the same heavens and earth that he created in verse 10 is the same heavens and earth that will perish and be destroyed in verses 11, 12!
You keep speaking of the earth, but the writer of the Hebrews is speaking of the “Heavens and the earth” which will be destroyed by fire.
The scriptures do not claim that the “earth” (Strong's G1093 – gē) which is defined as the 1) arable land 2) the ground, the earth as a standing place, will be destroyed by water, but by fire.
What it does say is…?
”WHEREBY THE **WORLD (Strong's G2889 – kosmos)**THAT THEN WAS”, being overflowed with water, perished: 2 Peter 3:6
“Kosmos is” is defined as…1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
The water destroyed the then known “world” “kosmos”!
But then Peter goes on to say…
By the same word “the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire“, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:7
Do you see the difference Jack? The day of Judgment has not come yet Jack?
Jack, can you show me anywhere in the scriptures that the “earth (gē) was destroyed by water?
2 Peter 3:5-13 clearly tells us that the heavens and earth (gē) will melt with fervent heat and Hebrews 1:10-12 confirms its destruction by folding it up like an old garment.
When did this happen Jack?
Thats the same heavens and earth that you have claimed Jesus created with his own hands Jack, remember?
WJ
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 06 2009,16:25) I haven't really been following the discussion on this general topic (why so many new threads?!?!), so I hope I'm not covering old ground. One of the problems with preterism is that you have to alegorise A LOT of eschatological scripture. So me, having a literalists bent, am never going to be comfortable with it. One thing that is clear to me is that Yeshua is quite explicitly prophesied to reign as King from the throne of David (an Earthly throne) on Mount Zion (Isaiah 2:2-4, Isaiah 9:6-7, Isaiah 24:23, Zech 14:9,16-17, Luke 1:32). It's hard to see how you could read these prophecies with an alegorical understanding, physical locations are named.
Christ is currently not reigning from Mt Zion in Jerusalem. The inhabitants of the Earth are currently not going “up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths” (Zech 14:16). Etc etc…
These prophecies have clearly not yet been fulfilled.
Hi PaulVery good points. I am finding that the Preterist has to spiritualize just about everything!
In other words the Kingdom of God really has no relevence in the physical at all!
Blessings WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 07 2009,06:52) Hi TT,
The earth has yet to be ruled by the appointed King Jesus.
A few servants await his return to see fulfilled that promise.
But the deceived think it has already happened killing their hopes
If the Lord already returned, which He did, then it fulfilled the hopes of those to whom it was originally promised, that is, the apostolic age Christians. This in turn gives confidence to all Christians in successive ages.On the other hand, if the Lord did not return to the Thessalonian Christians as Paul said He would, then their hopes were dashed and we have no good reason to believe any promises.
It's not difficult to comprehend Bud. “Let no [futurist] steal your promise.”
thinker
Hi TT,
You are deceived if you think Jesus has returned and nobody noticed.
You have no idea of the glory of the king and lord of all.
Yet you also call him your god?Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 06 2009,21:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 07 2009,06:52) Hi TT,
The earth has yet to be ruled by the appointed King Jesus.
A few servants await his return to see fulfilled that promise.
But the deceived think it has already happened killing their hopes
If the Lord already returned, which He did, then it fulfilled the hopes of those to whom it was originally promised, that is, the apostolic age Christians. This in turn gives confidence to all Christians in successive ages.On the other hand, if the Lord did not return to the Thessalonian Christians as Paul said He would, then their hopes were dashed and we have no good reason to believe any promises.
It's not difficult to comprehend Bud. “Let no [futurist] steal your promise.”
thinker
JackYou mean the same Thessalonians that Paul said “rest with us” yet Paul and many of the Christians died a Martyr death?
Why didn't Paul enjoy the same promise that you say the Thessalonians were promised when he said plainly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit…
And to you who are troubled “rest with us“, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1 Thess 1:7
Its because he did not come and their rest was in Christ! The promise was for all those in Christ Jesus!
If the promise was only to those alive in 70AD when he comes then God is playing favorites and should oppologize to all those he let die a martyr death!
So do not believe the Preterist because all those dying a martyr death today makes the Preterist interpretation of the promise a lie!
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 06 2009,21:47) On the other hand, if the Lord did not return to the Thessalonian Christians as Paul said He would, then their hopes were dashed and we have no good reason to believe any promises.
According to Jack, Pauls hopes were dashed, yet we know that is not true because Paul himself knew that he would die a martyr in Rome, and he did!WJ
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 07 2009,08:25) I haven't really been following the discussion on this general topic (why so many new threads?!?!), so I hope I'm not covering old ground. One of the problems with preterism is that you have to alegorise A LOT of eschatological scripture. So me, having a literalists bent, am never going to be comfortable with it. One thing that is clear to me is that Yeshua is quite explicitly prophesied to reign as King from the throne of David (an Earthly throne) on Mount Zion (Isaiah 2:2-4, Isaiah 9:6-7, Isaiah 24:23, Zech 14:9,16-17, Luke 1:32). It's hard to see how you could read these prophecies with an alegorical understanding, physical locations are named.
Christ is currently not reigning from Mt Zion in Jerusalem. The inhabitants of the Earth are currently not going “up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths” (Zech 14:16). Etc etc…
These prophecies have clearly not yet been fulfilled.
Hi Paul,
You have not been folowing it too closely. I have interpreted Isaiah's new earth quite literally. Even more literally that Keith.Isaiah said that people would travel from islands to learn about the Lord. But Keith says that the new earth has no sea. If the new earrth has no sea then how can it have islands? Isaiah said that death and sinners are present in the new earth. Keith rejects this. Isaiah said that they will “bring forth children” in the new earth. I am still waiting for Keith to answer.
I have not allegorized Isaiah's prophecy of the new earth. I have explained many statements within their old covenant context. This means that I must not generalize their fulfillment.
thinker
Paul said:
Quote Christ is currently not reigning from Mt Zion in Jerusalem. The inhabitants of the Earth are currently not going “up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths” (Zech 14:16). Etc etc…
This prophecy was NOT Messianic and has indeed been fulfilled.thinker
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 07 2009,08:31) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 07 2009,06:48) Explain how sinners can live on the futurist's notion of the new earth (Is. 65:20). thinker
Yeshua will not hand over the Kingdom to His Father until all rule, authority and power has been abolished, He must reign until all enemies have been put under His feet (1 Cor 15:24-25). This will not occur until after Satan has been loosed a little while to deceive the nations one last time (Rev 20:7), and this will not happen until after the 1000 year reign of Christ has consummated.
Paul,
You did not answer my question.thinker
WorshippingJesus,Nov. wrote:[/quote]
WorshippingJesus said:Quote Context Jack, the same heavens and earth that he created in verse 10 is the same heavens and earth that will perish and be destroyed in verses 11, 12!
Keith,
My original post was deleted before I finished it. So I will have to be brief now. The same language in Hebrews 1:11-12 is used in Isaiah 34 to speak about the destruction of the Edomites. It was fulfilled. So your treatment of Hebrews 1:11-12 proves nothing.WJ:
Quote ”WHEREBY THE **WORLD (Strong's G2889 – kosmos)**THAT THEN WAS”, being overflowed with water, perished: 2 Peter 3:6 “Kosmos is” is defined as…1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
The water destroyed the then known “world” “kosmos”!
Look again Keith. Peter said that the heavens and the earth in verse 5 was the “world” that perished in verse 6. He said that the “world” was flooded with water. Was it an “order or government” that was flooded with water” Keith?And when God made a covenant to never destroy the earth again He was NOT referring to governments? Come on! He said that He would never destroy “every living thing”,
Quote Genesis 8:21-22 (New King James Version)
21 And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.22 “While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
Cold and heat,
Winter and summer,
And day and night
Shall not cease.”Peter said that the heavens and the earth of verse 5 was the “world” that perished in verse 6. It was not an “order” or “arrangement” or “governmments.” It was EVERY LIVING THING. Peter says that this is the “heavens and the earth”, that is, the “world” that perished. Yet the heavens and the earth were not annihilated were they Keith. The fossil record indicates that the earth which is now is the SAME earth that perished. So “perish” cannot mean annihilation whether by water or by fire.
And God said that He would never again destroy EVERY LIVING THING and that as long as the EARTH remains the seasons will continue. So it was the EARTH tha perished.
There are sinners outside the gates of the city in the new earth Keith (Rev. 22:14-15). They escaped the judgment but still have their part in the lake of fire (21:8). Isaiah also says that sinnners are present in the new earth (56:20).
Jesus CLEARLY said that some would be taken [in judgment] and others left (Matt. 24:40-41).
You slipped up big time in failing to notice that the heavens and the earth in 2 Peter 3:5 was the “world” that perished in verse 6. The earth was not annihilated was it Keith?
thinker
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote Its because he did not come and their rest was in Christ! The promise was for all those in Christ Jesus!
So you're saying that the statement “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven” may be interpreted metaphorically then? It simply means “rest IN Christ?”May non-futurists take your allegorical approach to other scriptures about the Lord's coming?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,16:56) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Its because he did not come and their rest was in Christ! The promise was for all those in Christ Jesus!
So you're saying that the statement “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven” may be interpreted metaphorically then? It simply means “rest IN Christ?”May non-futurists take your allegorical approach to other scriptures about the Lord's coming?
thinker
JackInterpret it the way you like, but Paul knew he was gonna die a martyrs death and in fact did, so it is you that is saying the promise failed by your own interpretation of the text!
BTW, there is nothing metaphorical about resting in Christ.
Is being in Christ and Christ being in us metephorical?
WJ
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