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Hi TT,
Nobody has yet seen the promised signs in the heavens either but I suppose you have allegorised these?Hi TT,
If you are right then face up to the bad news.
The door of Jesus closed in 70 ad and no more can be saved.Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 01 2009,11:11) Quote (georg @ Nov. 01 2009,01:44) If the Thessalonians saw the return of Christ, then what does the book of Revelation prophecy? Georg
Georg,
The Revelation prophecies the destruction of Jerusalem and the apostate Jewish state known in the book as the “whore” and its replacement by the true bride the Lamb's wife. The book was fulfilled in John's own time.Rev. 1:1-3: 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must SHORTLY take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is NEAR.”
Rev. 3:10-11: “`Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is ABOUT TO COME upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. Lo, I come QUICKLY, be holding fast that which thou hast, that no one may receive thy crown.” YLT
See also 11:14, 17:8, 22:6-7, 22:10-12, 22:20
thinker
thinkerThe only reason I can think of for calling the Jews the whore is, you hate Jews. What you said is not only wrong, it makes no sense. Do you know what God calls Israel?
Zec 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
Zec 2:8 ¶ For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.God prophesied he would punish Israel.
Eze 22:15 And I will scatter thee among the heathen, and disperse thee in the countries, and will consume thy filthiness out of thee.
He did, but he also prophesied this.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.
But why bother with scriptures, I forgot, you don't believe scriptures.
Georg
Hi:
thethinker made the following comment:
Quote Do you realize the implications for us today if Paul's promise failed them? If the Lord was not revealed from heaven to give those saints rest by destroying their persecutors as promised, then we have no reason whatsoever to believe that any promises to us will be kept. My concern is that a comment like this may cause someone to abandon the faith, but let me assure God is faithful to his promises. I will post the following just as a warning:
Quote Jud 1:3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5 ¶ I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.Quote Hbr 3:5 And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; Hbr 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Hbr 3:7 ¶ Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Hbr 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Hbr 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Hbr 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known my ways.
Hbr 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hbr 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hbr 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Hbr 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Hbr 3:16 ¶ For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Hbr 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Hbr 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Don't let anyone steal your inheritance.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 01 2009,11:17) Hi TT,
Nobody has yet seen the promised signs in the heavens either but I suppose you have allegorised these?
Nick,
How can you say that nobody ever seen signs in the heavens when YOU WEREN'T THERE? What about Acts 2? Peter said that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was a fulfillment of Joel 2 and signs in the heavens accompanied.Quote But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.’There it is Nick! There were signs in the heavens on Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out. Are you sure you want to stick with your theory that nobody has seen signs in the heavens?
BTW, the note in my Bible says that these signs were eclipses. The ancients did not have a name for an eclipse so they referred to them as the sun being darkened and the moon being turned into blood because of the crimson color of the moon in some eclipses.
Joel and Peter were referring to eclipses which were “signs” to the Jewish people. Peter clearly said that these signs accompanied the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. Again Nick, YOU WEREN'T THERE!
Try again Nick.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 01 2009,11:18) Hi TT,
If you are right then face up to the bad news.
The door of Jesus closed in 70 ad and no more can be saved.
On what do you base your theory. Jesus said that AFTER the tribulation He would gather His elect from the four winds. Salvation continues after ad70 because after ad70 is when the new covenant age began.thinker
Quote (georg @ Nov. 01 2009,12:19) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 01 2009,11:11) Quote (georg @ Nov. 01 2009,01:44) If the Thessalonians saw the return of Christ, then what does the book of Revelation prophecy? Georg
Georg,
The Revelation prophecies the destruction of Jerusalem and the apostate Jewish state known in the book as the “whore” and its replacement by the true bride the Lamb's wife. The book was fulfilled in John's own time.Rev. 1:1-3: 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must SHORTLY take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is NEAR.”
Rev. 3:10-11: “`Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is ABOUT TO COME upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. Lo, I come QUICKLY, be holding fast that which thou hast, that no one may receive thy crown.” YLT
See also 11:14, 17:8, 22:6-7, 22:10-12, 22:20
thinker
thinkerThe only reason I can think of for calling the Jews the whore is, you hate Jews. What you said is not only wrong, it makes no sense. Do you know what God calls Israel?
Zec 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
Zec 2:8 ¶ For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.God prophesied he would punish Israel.
Eze 22:15 And I will scatter thee among the heathen, and disperse thee in the countries, and will consume thy filthiness out of thee.
He did, but he also prophesied this.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.
But why bother with scriptures, I forgot, you don't believe scriptures.
Georg
Georg,
The old testament scriptures to which you refer do not apply to the generation which killed Jesus. That generation was apostate and God judged them for rejecting their Messiah. You need to explain why Jesus wept over Jerusalem because of her impending judgment. He said that distress and wrath was to come upon “this people.”“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.”
God would not even spare their pregnant women. What Bible do you read Georg? Oh, I know, you get your theories from all those books on prophecy you read.
thinker
Marty said:
Quote My concern is that a comment like this may cause someone to abandon the faith, but let me assure God is faithful to his promises.
Marty,
What faith if God did not keep His promise to the saints at Thessolonica? I am protecting our faith. I insist that God kept His promise to the Thessalonians; that they would receive rest from persecution at the apocalypse of the Lord Jesus from heaven. I know that I will receive the promises God made to me because he kept His promise to the Thessalonians.Marty:
Quote Don't let anyone steal your inheritance.
Ha! You have recently denied that christians are Abraham's children. And you denied it TWO times. If we are not Abraham's children then we have no inheritance.“And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
You have said that we are not Abraham's children. This implies that we have no promise. So it is you who “steals” the inheritance.
You are a trip man!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 01 2009,14:11) Quote (georg @ Nov. 01 2009,12:19) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 01 2009,11:11) Quote (georg @ Nov. 01 2009,01:44) If the Thessalonians saw the return of Christ, then what does the book of Revelation prophecy? Georg
Georg,
The Revelation prophecies the destruction of Jerusalem and the apostate Jewish state known in the book as the “whore” and its replacement by the true bride the Lamb's wife. The book was fulfilled in John's own time.Rev. 1:1-3: 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must SHORTLY take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is NEAR.”
Rev. 3:10-11: “`Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is ABOUT TO COME upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. Lo, I come QUICKLY, be holding fast that which thou hast, that no one may receive thy crown.” YLT
See also 11:14, 17:8, 22:6-7, 22:10-12, 22:20
thinker
thinkerThe only reason I can think of for calling the Jews the whore is, you hate Jews. What you said is not only wrong, it makes no sense. Do you know what God calls Israel?
Zec 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
Zec 2:8 ¶ For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.God prophesied he would punish Israel.
Eze 22:15 And I will scatter thee among the heathen, and disperse thee in the countries, and will consume thy filthiness out of thee.
He did, but he also prophesied this.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.
But why bother with scriptures, I forgot, you don't believe scriptures.
Georg
Georg,
The old testament scriptures to which you refer do not apply to the generation which killed Jesus. That generation was apostate and God judged them for rejecting their Messiah. You need to explain why Jesus wept over Jerusalem because of her impending judgment. He said that distress and wrath was to come upon “this people.”“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.”
God would not even spare their pregnant women. What Bible do you read Georg? Oh, I know, you get your theories from all those books on prophecy you read.
thinker
Yes, my favorite books on prophecy are Daniel and Revelation.Georg
Georg said:
Quote Yes, my favorite books on prophecy are Daniel and Revelation.
Your futurist views on Daniel and Revelation come from the doctrines off men. Revelation says that the visions of John were to “shortly come to pass.”“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.“
It clearly says “shortly” and “near.” The words “shortly” did not mean a long time to them and near “near” did not mean far off in their future. Paul promised the saints at Thessalonica that they would receive rest from their persecutions “at the apocalypse of the Lord Jesus Christ from heaven.” He said that their enemies would also be destroyed at that time.
I believe Paul was right and you are wrong.
thinker
Constitutionalist said:
Quote That thinking is whacked. They will receive rest at his coming, whether dead or alive. After he comes there will be no more persecutions.
Con,
Your thinking is whacked. If they received their rest when they died then they did not receive it at His coming. They received it before His coming. And what is your proof for saying that there will be no more persecutions when He comes?thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 01 2009,14:11) Quote (georg @ Nov. 01 2009,12:19) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 01 2009,11:11) Quote (georg @ Nov. 01 2009,01:44) If the Thessalonians saw the return of Christ, then what does the book of Revelation prophecy? Georg
Georg,
The Revelation prophecies the destruction of Jerusalem and the apostate Jewish state known in the book as the “whore” and its replacement by the true bride the Lamb's wife. The book was fulfilled in John's own time.Rev. 1:1-3: 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must SHORTLY take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is NEAR.”
Rev. 3:10-11: “`Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is ABOUT TO COME upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. Lo, I come QUICKLY, be holding fast that which thou hast, that no one may receive thy crown.” YLT
See also 11:14, 17:8, 22:6-7, 22:10-12, 22:20
thinker
thinkerThe only reason I can think of for calling the Jews the whore is, you hate Jews. What you said is not only wrong, it makes no sense. Do you know what God calls Israel?
Zec 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
Zec 2:8 ¶ For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.God prophesied he would punish Israel.
Eze 22:15 And I will scatter thee among the heathen, and disperse thee in the countries, and will consume thy filthiness out of thee.
He did, but he also prophesied this.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.
But why bother with scriptures, I forgot, you don't believe scriptures.
Georg
Georg,
The old testament scriptures to which you refer do not apply to the generation which killed Jesus. That generation was apostate and God judged them for rejecting their Messiah. You need to explain why Jesus wept over Jerusalem because of her impending judgment. He said that distress and wrath was to come upon “this people.”“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.”
God would not even spare their pregnant women. What Bible do you read Georg? Oh, I know, you get your theories from all those books on prophecy you read.
thinker
thinkerDid not Jesus say, “repent for the kingdom is at hand?”
Are you suggesting we are living in God's kingdom now?
When was Satan put away?
When were the seven trumpets blown?
When were the seven bowls poured out?
If AD 70 is the year when all things were fulfilled; how long is your millennium?
Was it the Jewish religion that deceived the whole world, or was it the Catholic religion? I think you are the only one that believes the Jews are the whore.
John died at the end of the first Century; explain to me how all the prophesies of the book of Revelation were fulfilled.Georg
Georg said:
Quote Are you suggesting we are living in God's kingdom now?
Georg,
Paul said that we have been transferred into the kingdom of God's dear Son,Colossians 1:13:
Quote For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, Satan was bound when he was cursed in the garden and was loosed for the “little season” between Christ's first and second comings. He was judged in ad70 and consequently cast into the lake of fire.
BTW, the word “chilias” is plural. It literally reads “thousands of years.” Satan was bound for the entire old testament period. There is no future “millennium.” The millenniums (plural) are the old testament period.
The last trumpet sounded and the last bowl was poured out when Christ returned in ad70. In the Olivet discourse He told His disciples that they would live to see all these things.
We are in the new heaven and earth, that is, the covenantally renewed heaven and earth. According to Isaiah 65-66 the new earth is THIS earth. To be made “new' simply means “regenerated” or “redeemed.”
thinker
Hi TT,
Naah.
You seem to have lost most of your devoted followers as you wander off into speculation.If Jesus has returned the door has been closed to the wedding feast and you are lost, your faith is in vain.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 01 2009,14:56) Hi TT,
Naah.
You seem to have lost most of your devoted followers as you wander off into speculation.If Jesus has returned the door has been closed to the wedding feast and you are lost, your faith is in vain.
NHGood point!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 02 2009,06:53) Georg said: Quote Are you suggesting we are living in God's kingdom now?
Georg,
Paul said that we have been transferred into the kingdom of God's dear Son,Colossians 1:13:
Quote For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, Satan was bound when he was cursed in the garden and was loosed for the “little season” between Christ's first and second comings. He was judged in ad70 and consequently cast into the lake of fire.
BTW, the word “chilias” is plural. It literally reads “thousands of years.” Satan was bound for the entire old testament period. There is no future “millennium.” The millenniums (plural) are the old testament period.
The last trumpet sounded and the last bowl was poured out when Christ returned in ad70. In the Olivet discourse He told His disciples that they would live to see all these things.
We are in the new heaven and earth, that is, the covenantally renewed heaven and earth. According to Isaiah 65-66 the new earth is THIS earth. To be made “new' simply means “regenerated” or “redeemed.”
thinker
thinkerYou don't do your name justice.
Does it not say, “Satan was bound so he could deceive the world no more?”
Why not explain to us what the trumpets and the bowls mean, and when exactly they were fulfilled.
To say, you are confused, is putting it mildly.
Georg
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 01 2009,14:24) Marty said: Quote My concern is that a comment like this may cause someone to abandon the faith, but let me assure God is faithful to his promises.
Marty,
What faith if God did not keep His promise to the saints at Thessolonica? I am protecting our faith. I insist that God kept His promise to the Thessalonians; that they would receive rest from persecution at the apocalypse of the Lord Jesus from heaven. I know that I will receive the promises God made to me because he kept His promise to the Thessalonians.Marty:
Quote Don't let anyone steal your inheritance.
Ha! You have recently denied that christians are Abraham's children. And you denied it TWO times. If we are not Abraham's children then we have no inheritance.“And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
You have said that we are not Abraham's children. This implies that we have no promise. So it is you who “steals” the inheritance.
You are a trip man!
thinker
Hi thethinker:As I have already told you I am not a child of Abraham. He and I are brothers and joint heirs with Christ.
God is my Father, and so whose child am I? In fact, Jesus, Abraham, and I are brothers in that God is the Father of our spirit.
How will this overthrow the faith of anyone. It is the truth. Only you do not understand that we are the seed of Abraham because we are believers.
Maybe the following will help you to understand this: It is in Isaac that his seed is called. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosover believeth should not perish but have everlating life.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thethinker @ Nov. 02 2009,06:53) Georg said: Quote Are you suggesting we are living in God's kingdom now?
Georg,
Paul said that we have been transferred into the kingdom of God's dear Son,Colossians 1:13:
Quote For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, Satan was bound when he was cursed in the garden and was loosed for the “little season” between Christ's first and second comings. He was judged in ad70 and consequently cast into the lake of fire.
BTW, the word “chilias” is plural. It literally reads “thousands of years.” Satan was bound for the entire old testament period. There is no future “millennium.” The millenniums (plural) are the old testament period.
The last trumpet sounded and the last bowl was poured out when Christ returned in ad70. In the Olivet discourse He told His disciples that they would live to see all these things.
We are in the new heaven and earth, that is, the covenantally renewed heaven and earth. According to Isaiah 65-66 the new earth is THIS earth. To be made “new' simply means “regenerated” or “redeemed.”
thinker
thinkerIs not this supposed to happen in the millennium?
Isa 11:6 ¶ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Have you been watching “Wild Kingdom” lately?
Annnnd, when did this occur, or did it?
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
I suggest you do some real thinking.
Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 02 2009,06:56) Hi TT,
Naah.
You seem to have lost most of your devoted followers as you wander off into speculation.If Jesus has returned the door has been closed to the wedding feast and you are lost, your faith is in vain.
Nick,
First, I did not know I had “devoted followers.” Second, I do not seek the approval of men which should have been evident long before now. Your assertion that my faith is vain because I do not participate in the wedding feast is fallacious. Do the children of the marriage participate in the wedding feast?Isaiah prophesied that the wife would bear children for her Husband (Christ/God) and that they ALL would be taught by God (Isaiah 54). The apostolic church was Christ's wife. We are the children of the marriage. Just as the wife is under the covenant of promise so are her children.
You do show your ignorance of the holy scriptures.
thinker
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