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To ALL:
Note the glorious promise Paul gave the Thessalonians about Christ's return:
2 Thessalonians 1:3-10:
“3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.”The saints at Thessalonica were enduring persecutions and tribulations (vs. 4). Paul promised them that they would receive rest from their afflictions WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN.
If they were persecuted unto death and did not see the Lord come back to give them rest then Paul was a liar. Paul assured them that they would receive their rest “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.”
This “rest” involved nothing less then the destruction of their persecutors.
Quote
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.There it is brothers and sisters! Paul promised them that the Lord would be revealed from heaven to give them rest from their persecutors and that rest would come by His taking vengence upon their persecutors in “flaming fire.”
Do you realize the implications for us today if Paul's promise failed them? If the Lord was not revealed from heaven to give those saints rest by destroying their persecutors as promised, then we have no reason whatsoever to believe that any promises to us will be kept.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,17:48) To ALL: Note the glorious promise Paul gave the Thessalonians about Christ's return:
2 Thessalonians 1:3-10:
“3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.”The saints at Thessalonica were enduring persecutions and tribulations (vs. 4). Paul promised them that they would receive rest from their afflictions WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN.
If they were persecuted unto death and did not see the Lord come back to give them rest then Paul was a liar. Paul assured them that they would receive their rest “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.”
This “rest” involved nothing less then the destruction of their persecutors.
Quote
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.There it is brothers and sisters! Paul promised them that the Lord would be revealed from heaven to give them rest from their persecutors and that rest would come by His taking vengence upon their persecutors in “flaming fire.”
Do you realize the implications for us today if Paul's promise failed them? If the Lord was not revealed from heaven to give those saints rest by destroying their persecutors as promised, then we have no reason whatsoever to believe that any promises to us will be kept.
thinker
JackSorry, that proves nothing of the time frame!
All those men died being persecuted, so if what you are saying is true then the Lord had favorites.
For Peter and Paul for instance died in Martydom before the Lords appearing and yet they believed they would see his day!
He says “rest with us” and then speaks of future judgment and the time frame again is not found in that text!
Jack it is becoming difficult for me to keep up with your post because this is a subject that you are familiar with and I am limited in time.
I am still working on your other post, but having to many threads and post to respond to is difficult! Be patient!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 30 2009,09:48) To ALL: Note the glorious promise Paul gave the Thessalonians about Christ's return:
2 Thessalonians 1:3-10:
“3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.”The saints at Thessalonica were enduring persecutions and tribulations (vs. 4). Paul promised them that they would receive rest from their afflictions WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN.
If they were persecuted unto death and did not see the Lord come back to give them rest then Paul was a liar. Paul assured them that they would receive their rest “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.”
This “rest” involved nothing less then the destruction of their persecutors.
Quote
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.There it is brothers and sisters! Paul promised them that the Lord would be revealed from heaven to give them rest from their persecutors and that rest would come by His taking vengence upon their persecutors in “flaming fire.”
Do you realize the implications for us today if Paul's promise failed them? If the Lord was not revealed from heaven to give those saints rest by destroying their persecutors as promised, then we have no reason whatsoever to believe that any promises to us will be kept.
thinker
Hi thinker:Quote Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Love in Christ,
MartyWorshippingJesus said:
Quote He says “rest with us” and then speaks of future judgment and the time frame again is not found in that text!
Hi Keith,
You say that the time frame is not found in the text. If this is true then you can't say it's “future” anymore than I can say it is past because according to you “the time frame is not found in the text.”You said that it was their deaths that brought them deliverance from their persecutors. But Paul said it was to be at the apocalypse of Jesus Christ from heaven that would bring them rest. If the apocalypse of Jesus Christ was an event that was still future, then neither the apostle Paul or those saints have realized that rest. They could not be realizing it in heaven now because their rest is to come at the revelation of Jesus Christ from heaven.
WJ:
Quote I am still working on your other post, but having to many threads and post to respond to is difficult! Be patient!
Cool bro! I won't add another thread for a while.I love you man!
Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 30 2009,12:53) WorshippingJesus said: Quote He says “rest with us” and then speaks of future judgment and the time frame again is not found in that text!
Hi Keith,
You say that the time frame is not found in the text. If this is true then you can't say it's “future” anymore than I can say it is past because according to you “the time frame is not found in the text.”You said that it was their deaths that brought them deliverance from their persecutors. But Paul said it was to be at the apocalypse of Jesus Christ from heaven that would bring them rest. If the apocalypse of Jesus Christ was an event that was still future, then neither the apostle Paul or those saints have realized that rest. They could not be realizing it in heaven now because their rest is to come at the revelation of Jesus Christ from heaven.
WJ:
Quote I am still working on your other post, but having to many threads and post to respond to is difficult! Be patient!
Cool bro! I won't add another thread for a while.I love you man!
Jack
No such destruction of persecutors happened in that time in fact the killing of Christians increased.Persecution under Nero, 64-68 A.D.
Main article: Great Fire of Rome
The first documented case of imperially-supervised persecution of the Christians in the Roman Empire begins with Nero (37-68). In 64 A.D., a great fire broke out in Rome, destroying portions of the city and economically devastating the Roman population. Nero himself was suspected as the arsonist by Suetonius[14], claiming he played the lyre and sang the 'Sack of Ilium' during the fires. In his Annals, Tacitus (who claimed Nero was in Antium at the time of the fire's outbreak), stated that “to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [or Chrestians[15]] by the populace” (Tacit. Annals XV, see Tacitus on Jesus). Suetonius, later to the period, does not mention any persecution after the fire, but in an previous paragraph unrelated to the fire, mentions punishments inflicted on Christians, defined as men following a new and malefic superstition. Suetonius however does not specify the reasons for the punishment, he just listed the fact together with other abuses put down by Nero[16].[edit] Persecution from the second century to Constantine
By the mid 2nd century, mobs could be found willing to throw stones at Christians, and they might be mobilized by rival sects. The Persecution in Lyon was preceded by mob violence, including assaults, robberies and stonings (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 5.1.7).Further state persecutions were desultory until the third century, though Tertullian's Apologeticus of 197 was ostensibly written in defense of persecuted Christians and addressed to Roman governors.[17] The “edict of Septimius Severus” familiar in Christian history is doubted by some secular historians to have existed outside Christian martyrology.
The first documentable Empire-wide persecution took place under Maximinus Thrax, though only the clergy were sought out. It was not until Decius during the mid-century that a persecution of Christian laity across the Empire took place. Christian sources aver that a decree was issued requiring public sacrifice, a formality equivalent to a testimonial of allegiance to the Emperor and the established order. Decius authorized roving commissions visiting the cities and villages to supervise the execution of the sacrifices and to deliver written certificates to all citizens who performed them. Christians were often given opportunities to avoid further punishment by publicly offering sacrifices or burning incense to Roman gods, and were accused by the Romans of impiety when they refused. Refusal was punished by arrest, imprisonment, torture, and executions. Christians fled to safe havens in the countryside and some purchased their certificates, called libelli. Several councils held at Carthage debated the extent to which the community should accept these lapsed Christians.
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,20:53) WorshippingJesus said:
Quote He says “rest with us” and then speaks of future judgment and the time frame again is not found in that text!
Hi Keith,
You say that the time frame is not found in the text. If this is true then you can't say it's “future” anymore than I can say it is past because according to you “the time frame is not found in the text.”
Exactly Jack because Jesus said…So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them: “It is not for you to know **the times or dates** the Father has set by his own authority“. Acts 1:6, 7
Peter does give us a glimpse of the Lords time..
By the same word “the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire“, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: “With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day“. 2 Peter 3:7, 8
Contextually you still have not answered 2 Peter ch. 3.
But here we see that the “present heavens and earth are *reserved for fire*, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
This has not happened! Peter leaves the door open for thousands of years!
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,20:53) You said that it was their deaths that brought them deliverance from their persecutors.
No I am quoting Paul who said “rest with us”, we know Paul died in Rome as a Martyr, and then he says they will be vindicated when they with the Lord returns taking vengeance on those who do not know God and obey the Lord!You say Jesus returned in the clouds and not to earth, but this passage is saying he is coming in “Flaming fire” to destroy his enemies in the earth!
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,20:53) But Paul said it was to be at the apocalypse of Jesus Christ from heaven that would bring them rest.
But again Paul says “rest with us”. Paul knew he was going to be a Martyr so what you are saying doesn't make sense.Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,20:53) If the apocalypse of Jesus Christ was an event that was still future, then neither the apostle Paul or those saints have realized that rest.
Not true, Paul knew their rest was in Christ just as he was the Ark for Noah when the whole earth was destroyed by a flood, only this time it is reserved for fire. Read the context bro.Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,20:53) They could not be realizing it in heaven now because their rest is to come at the revelation of Jesus Christ from heaven.
No Jack he said “Rest with us”, but their vindication was future for Paul died!Jack history tells us the persecution of the saints continued on for centuries, so if Jesus had returned then why were believers still being killed?
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,20:53) WJ: Quote I am still working on your other post, but having too many threads and post to respond to is difficult! Be patient!
Cool bro! I won't add another thread for a while.I love you man!
Jack
Cool, you need to see a dentist!
Blessing Keith
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote Exactly Jack because Jesus said… So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them: “It is not for you to know **the times or dates** the Father has set by his own authority”. Acts 1:6, 7
Hi Keith,
It is true it was not given them to know UNTIL it happened. They knew generally that it would be in THEIR OWN GENERATION. Jesus told them that after certain events transpired they would know that the kingdom was “near” and “at the doors.” He adds that it would happen in their own generation.Quote 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. WJ:
Quote Contextually you still have not answered 2 Peter ch. 3. But here we see that the “present heavens and earth are *reserved for fire*, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
I gave you a list of preterist commentators on another thread. I will expound a little now.You infer that Peter was speaking about the destruction of ALL ungodly men. Nothing could be further from the truth. Peter knew Isaiah's prophecy of the new earth in chapters 65-66 and he knew it speaks about sinners being present. Neither could Peter have thought that the physical earth would be destroyed. He knew that Isaiah's prophecy suggests that the new earth is still THIS earth.
Jesus called this the “regeneration” (Matt.19:28). We know that regeneration does not involve the destruction of something in the way the futurists suggest. Believers are regenerated and their “old man” has been DESTROYED. Were you annihilated when you were regenerated and your “old man” was destroyed? Of course not!
Note too that Peter invokes the apostle Paul's writings (vss. 14-16). In which of his writings did Paul ever speak about the destruction of the earth in the sense that futurists say it will be destroyed? Paul NEVER wrote about such a destruction as the futurists suggest. Paul said that the whole creation would undergo “REDEMPTION” (Rom. 8). Annihilation is not redemption bro! In fact, Paul said that the whole creation was “eagerly waiting.” Does something eagerly wait for annihilation? Of course not!
So Jesus spoke about it as the “regeneration” and Paul spoke about it as the “redemption.” These ideas are not about annihilation as Isaiah's prophecy substantiates.
Jesus: Regeneration
Paul: Redemption
Isaiah: Sinners and death still present.WJ:
Quote Peter leaves the door open for thousands of years!
Peter was addressing the issue of those who were mocking their expectation of the Lord's return. Hebrews 10:37 says that He would come in a “little while” and “will not delay.” God would not lie to His people and say “a little while” when He knows that He will tarry. Peter told them that THEY were looking for the Lord's return which cannot leave the door open for a thousand years.WJ:
Quote You say Jesus returned in the clouds and not to earth, but this passage is saying he is coming in “Flaming fire” to destroy his enemies in the earth!
Was not Jerusalem burned up? Was not Sodom and Gomorrah burned up in God's wrath? Did God physically come to earth to accomplish these judgments? It was Paul who said that the Lord would descend from heaven and that He would catch UP his people “in the clouds.” How the futurists can infer from this that Jesus is coming to earth is beyond me.
WJ:
Quote No I am quoting Paul who said “rest with us”, we know Paul died in Rome as a Martyr, and then he says they will be vindicated when they with the Lord returns taking vengeance on those who do not know God and obey the Lord!
You are not quoting Paul brother. You are putting words into his mouth. He said that they would have their rest in the single event of the Lord's apocalypse from heaven. Their rest was to come simultaneously with the destruction of their enemies.WJ:
Quote No Jack he said “Rest with us”, but their vindication was future for Paul died!
Lame brother! There is no agreement about the date of Paul's death.WJ:
Quote Jack history tells us the persecution of the saints continued on for centuries, so if Jesus had returned then why were believers still being killed?
You are committing the fallacy of generalization. The succeeding generations of Christians were not specifically promised deliverance from their persecutions. And neither were all Christians in apostolic times promised deliverance from their persecutions. Jesus told the church at Smyrna to be faithful to death. But He told Thyatira to “hold fast til I come.”Again, Jesus told the saints at Thyatira to “hold fast til I come.” This means that they would be living when He came. Paul promised the Thessalonians that they would have their rest in the SINGLE EVENT of His apoaclypse from heaven. He said that their personal enemies would be destroyed simulatanously with their receipt of that rest.
If this promised failed then you have no good reason to believe that anything promised you will surely come to pass.
I won't be posting again until later. I promised my wife that I would paint a room in the house this weekend.
Afterwards I will reply to your other posts.Your friend,
JackQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 31 2009,17:25) Hi TT,
You misunderstand.
As usual.
Nick,
Tell me what I misunderstand. Paul did not say that the Thessalonians would receive rest from their persecutors in order of sequence upon their individual deaths. He said that they would receive rest from their persecutors in the SINGLE event of Christ's apcalypse from heaven. Paul said that their persecutors also would be destroyed at this time.It was all to happen in the SINGLE event of Christ's apocalypse from heaven.
“For in just a very little while, He who is coming will come and will NOT tarry” (Hebrews 10:37, NIV).
Did the promise of His return in a “very little while” fail Nick?
thinker
TO KEITH:
I will not have time today to do any posts in length. I am looking for you to comment specificaly on the “at the apocalypse of the Lord Jesus from heaven” part of Paul's statement. Your commentary on “rest with us” was not valid for several reasons including that you failed to comment on all of it.
Jack
Hi TT,
Now, like those who were upsetting the Thessalonians, you jumped the gun through a misunderstanding.
Like trinity I guess, another misunderstanding.Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,14:48) To ALL: Note the glorious promise Paul gave the Thessalonians about Christ's return:
2 Thessalonians 1:3-10:
“3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.”The saints at Thessalonica were enduring persecutions and tribulations (vs. 4). Paul promised them that they would receive rest from their afflictions WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN.
If they were persecuted unto death and did not see the Lord come back to give them rest then Paul was a liar. Paul assured them that they would receive their rest “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.”
This “rest” involved nothing less then the destruction of their persecutors.
Quote
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.There it is brothers and sisters! Paul promised them that the Lord would be revealed from heaven to give them rest from their persecutors and that rest would come by His taking vengence upon their persecutors in “flaming fire.”
Do you realize the implications for us today if Paul's promise failed them? If the Lord was not revealed from heaven to give those saints rest by destroying their persecutors as promised, then we have no reason whatsoever to believe that any promises to us will be kept.
thinker
That thinking is whacked. They will receive rest at his coming, whether dead or alive. After he comes there will be no more persecutions.Nice twist though.
Rest assured most know the truth of those verses.
Quote 7. rest– governed by “to recompense” ( 2Th 1:6 ). The Greek is literally, “relaxation”; loosening of the tension which had preceded; relaxing of the strings of endurance now so tightly drawn. The Greek word for “rest,” Mat 11:28 , is distinct, namely, cessation from labor. Also, Hbr 4:9 , “A keeping of sabbath.”
with us–
namely, Paul, Silas, and Timothy, the writers, who are troubled like yourselves.
when–
at the time when . . . ; not sooner, not later.
with his mighty angels–
rather as the Greek, “with the angels of His might,” or “power,” that is, the angels who are the ministers by whom He makes His might to be recognized ( Mat 13:41, 52 ). It is not their might, but His might, which is the prominent thought.
8. In flaming fire–
Greek, “In flame of fire”; or, as other oldest manuscripts read, “in fire of flame.” This flame of fire accompanied His manifestation in the bush ( Exd 3:2 ); also His giving of the law at Sinai ( Exd 19:18 ). Also it shall accompany His revelation at His advent ( Dan 7:9, 10 ), symbolizing His own bright glory and His consuming vengeance against His foes ( Hbr 10:27 12:29 2Pe 3:7, 10 ).
taking–
literally, “giving” them, as their portion, “vengeance.”
know not God–
the Gentiles primarily ( Psa 79:6 Gal 4:8 1Th 4:5 ); not of course those involuntarily not knowing God, but those wilfully not knowing Him, as Pharaoh, who might have known God if he would, but who boasted “I know not the Lord” ( Exd 5:2 ); and as the heathen persecutors who might have known God by the preaching of those whom they persecuted. Secondarily, all who “profess to know God but in works deny Him” ( Tts 1:16 ).
obey not the gospel–
primarily the unbelieving Jews ( Rom 10:3, 16 ); secondarily, all who obey not the truth ( Rom 2:8 ).
Christ–
omitted by some of the oldest manuscripts, and retained by others. Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Commentary on 2 Thessalonians 1
———————————————————-
Quote 2Th 1:5-10 Having mentioned their persecutions and tribulations, which they endured principally for the cause of Christ, the apostle proceeds to offer several things for their comfort under them; as,
I. He tells them of the present happiness and advantage of their sufferings, v. 5. Their faith being thus tried, and patience exercised, they were improved by their sufferings, insomuch that they were counted worthy of the kingdom of God. Their sufferings were a manifest token of this, that they were worthy or meet to be accounted Christians indeed, seeing they could suffer for Christianity. And the truth is, Religion, if it is worth any thing, is worth every thing; and those either have no religion at all, or none that is worth having, or know not how to value it, that cannot find in their hearts to suffer for it. Besides, from their patient suffering, it appeared that, according to the righteous judgment of God, they should be counted worthy of the heavenly glory: not by worthiness of condignity, but of congruity only; not that they could merit heaven, but they were made meet for heaven. We cannot by all our sufferings, any more than by our services, merit heaven as a debt; but by our patience under our sufferings we are qualified for the joy that is promised to patient sufferers in the cause of God.
II. He tells them next of the future recompence that shall be given to persecutor and persecuted.
1. In this future recompence there will be, (1.) A punishment inflicted on persecutors: God will recompense tribulation to those that trouble you, v. 6. And there is nothing that more infallibly marks a man for eternal ruin than a spirit of persecution, and enmity to the name and people of God: as the faith, patience, and constancy of the saints are to them an earnest of everlasting rest and joy, so the pride, malice, and wickedness of their persecutors are to them an earnest of everlasting misery; for every man carries about with him, and carries out of the world with him, either his heaven or his hell. God will render a recompence, and will trouble those that trouble his people. This he has done sometimes in this world, witness the dreadful end of many persecutors; but especially this he will do in the other world, where the portion of the wicked must be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth. (2.) A reward for those that are persecuted: God will recompense their trouble with rest, v. 7. There is a rest that remains for the people of God, a rest from sin and sorrow. Though many may be the troubles of the righteous now, yet God will deliver them out of them all. The future rest will abundantly recompense all their present troubles. The sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed. There is enough in heaven to countervail all that we may lose or suffer for the name of Christ in this world. The apostle says, To you who are troubled rest with us. In heaven, ministers and people shall rest together, and rejoice together, who suffer together here; and the meanest Christian shall rest with the greatest apostle: nay, what is far more, if we suffer for Christ, we shall also reign with him, 2 Tim. 2:12.
2. Concerning this future recompence we are further to observe,
(1.) The certainty of it, proved by the righteousness and justice of God: It is a righteous thing with God (v. 6) to render to every man according to his works. The thoughts of this should be terrible to wicked men and persecutors, and the great support of the righteous and such as are persecuted; for, seeing there is a righteous God, there will be a righteous recompence. God’s suffering people will lose nothing by their sufferings, and their enemies will gain nothing by their advantages against them.
(2.) The time when this righteous recompence shall be made: When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, v. 7. That will be the day of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God; for then will God judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath appointed, even Jesus Christ the righteous Judge. The righteousness of God does not so visibly appear to all men in the procedure of his providence as it will in the process of the great judgment-day. The scripture has made known to us the judgment to come, and we are bound to receive the revelation here given concerning Christ. As,
[1.] That the Lord Jesus will in that day appear from heaven. Now the heavens retain him, they conceal him; but then he will be revealed and made manifest. He will come in all the pomp and power of the upper world, whence we look for the Saviour.
[2.] He will be revealed with his mighty angels (v. 7), or the angels of his power: these will attend upon him, to grace the solemnity of that great day of his appearance; they will be the ministers of his justice and mercy in that day; they will summon the criminals to his tribunal, and gather in the elect, and be employed in executing his sentence.
[3.] He will come in flaming fire, v. 8. A fire goeth before him, which shall consume his enemies. The earth, and all the works that are therein, shall be burnt up, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. This will be a trying fire, to try every man’s work,—a refining fire, to purify the saints, who shall share in the purity, and partake of the felicity, of the new heaven and the new earth,—a consuming fire to the wicked. His light will be piercing, and his power consuming, to all those who in that day shall be found as chaff.
[4.] The effects of this appearance will be terrible to some and joyful to others.
First, They will be terrible to some; for he will then take vengeance on the wicked. 1. On those that sinned against the principles of natural religion, and rebelled against the light of nature, that knew not God (v. 8), though the invisible things of him are manifested in the things that are seen. 2. On those that rebel against the light of revelation, that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men love darkness rather than light. This is the great crime of multitudes-the gospel is revealed to them, and they will not believe it; or, if they pretend to believe it, they will not obey it. Note, Believing the truths of the gospel is in order to our obeying the precepts of the gospel: there must be the obedience of faith. To such persons as are here mentioned the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ will be terrible, because of their doom, which is mentioned, v. 9. Here observe, (1.) They will then be punished. Though sinners may be long reprieved, yet they will be punished at last. Their misery will be a proper punishment for their crimes, and only what they have deserved. They did sin’s work, and must receive sin’s wages. (2.) Their punishment will be no less than destruction, not of their being, but of their bliss; not that of the body alone, but both as to body and soul. (3.) This destruction will be everlasting. They shall be always dying, and yet never die. Their misery will run parallel with the line of eternity. The chains of darkness are everlasting chains, and the fire is everlasting fire. It must needs be so, since the punishment is inflicted by an eternal God, fastening upon an immortal soul, set out of the reach of divine mercy and grace. (4.) This destruction shall come from the presence of the Lord, that is, immediately from God himself. Here God punishes sinners by creatures, by instruments; but then he will take the work into his own hands. It will be destruction from the Almighty, more terrible than the consuming fire which consumed Nadab and Abihu, which came from before the Lord. (5.) It shall come from the glory of his power, or from his glorious power. Not only the justice of God, but this almighty power, will be glorified in the destructio
n of sinners; and who knows the power of his anger? He is able to cast into hell.Secondly, It will be a joyful day to some, even to the saints, unto those that believe and obey the gospel. And then the apostle’s testimony concerning this day will be confirmed and believed (v. 10); in that bright and blessed day, 1. Christ Jesus will be glorified and admired by his saints. They will behold his glory, and admire it with pleasure; they will glorify his grace, and admire the wonders of his power and goodness towards them, and sing hallelujahs to him in that day of his triumph, for their complete victory and happiness. 2. Christ will be glorified and admired in them. His grace and power will then be manifested and magnified, when it shall appear what he has purchased for, and wrought in, and bestowed upon, all those who believe in him. As his wrath and power will be made known in and by the destruction of his enemies, so his grace and power will be magnified in the salvation of his saints. Note, Christ’s dealings with those who believe will be what the world one day shall wonder at. Now, they are a wonder to many; but how will they be wondered at in this great and glorious day; or, rather, how will Christ, whose name is Wonderful, be admired, when the mystery of God shall be finished! Christ will not be so much admired in the glorious esteem of angels that he will bring from heaven with him as in the many saints, the many sons, that he will bring to glory. Matthew Henry Commentary on 2 Thessalonians 1
Quote B. The persecuted Thessalonians and their persecutors. 1. (5-7) The persecution and tribulation of the Thessalonians set the righteousness of God on display.
Which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
a. Which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God: God’s righteous judgment was at work among the Thessalonians, beginning at the house of God (1 Peter 4:17), and purifying them as followers of Jesus. The good result – showing them worthy of the kingdom of God – was manifest evidence that God was good in allowing them to suffer the persecutions and tribulations described in 2 Thessalonians 1:4.
i. We usually think that God is absent when we suffer, and that our suffering calls God’s righteous judgment into question. Paul took the exact opposite position and insisted that their suffering was evidence of the righteous judgment of God. Where suffering is coupled with righteous endurance, God’s work is done. The fires of persecution and tribulation were like the purifying fires of a refiner, burning away the dross from the gold, bringing forth a pure, precious metal.
ii. The idea behind counted worthy is not “seen as worthy” but “reckoned as worthy” as in a judicial decree. Paul’s prayer is that the worthiness of Jesus may be accounted to them.
b. Since it is a righteous thing with God: Many people question the righteousness of God’s judgment. They believe that God’s love and His judgment contradict each other. But God’s judgment is based on the great spiritual principle that it is a righteous thing with God to repay those who do evil. Since God is righteous, He will repay all evil, and it will all be judged and accounted for either at the cross or in hell.
i. The judgment of God means that there is nothing unimportant in my life. Everything is under the eye of a God I must answer to.
ii. “A world in which justice was not done at last would not be God’s world at all.” (Hiebert)
c. To repay with tribulation those who trouble you: God was also shown as righteous when those who persecuted the Thessalonians were repaid with tribulation according to their evil works. They probably believed they did God a favor when they persecuted the Christians, but the righteous God would repay them and not reward them.
i. “Often retribution is pictured as overtaking men in the world to come, but there are not wanting passages which indicated that it may operate in the here and now (e.g., Rom. 1:24, 26, 28).” (Morris)
ii. We can see a statement like 1 Thessalonians 1:6 in much the same context as those passages in the Psalms where the writer happily wishes ill upon his enemies – they are a prayer of entrusting the judgment of these enemies to God, instead of personally taking the initiative.
iii. The tribulation upon these persecutors of God’s people is not like a purifying fire. It is like the fire of a pure and holy judgment.
d. And to give you who are troubled rest: The Thessalonian Christians were persecuted and had tribulation; and God used it for His glory. But the time of persecution would not last. A day of rest is promised for every believer.
2. (8-10) The coming day of judgment for both the persecuted and their persecutors.
In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
a. In flaming fire taking vengeance: This is what the day of judgment will be like for those who persecuted the Thessalonians. For the persecutors, those who do not know God, and those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, that will be a day of vengeance and everlasting destruction.
i. In flaming fire: It isn’t the fire that makes hell what it is. In the fiery furnace, the three Jewish young men were completely comfortable, as long as the Lord was with them in the fire (Daniel 3). What truly characterizes hell is that there, people are from the presence of the Lord, in the sense of being apart from anything good or blessed in God’s presence. From the presence of the Lord sums up the Bible’s understanding of hell. Nothing must be said more about its horrors, other than hell will be completely devoid of God and every aspect of His character, except one: His unrelenting holy justice.
ii. It is not wrong for God to take vengeance; we understand this when understand what the word means in the ancient Greek language. “The word rendered ‘vengeance’ has no associations of vindictiveness. It is a compound based on the same root as the word rendered ‘righteous’ in vv. 5, 6, and it has the idea of a firm administration of unwavering justice.” (Morris) The idea is the application of full justice on the offender; nothing more and nothing less.
iii. Everlasting destruction: We must not be moved from the idea that the punishment of the wicked is everlasting. As the blessings of heaven are eternal, the penalty of hell is also eternal. “The perpetual duration of this death is proved from the fact that its opposite is the glory of Christ. This is eternal and has no end.” (Calvin)
b. To be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe: For the persecuted saints, those who believe, they will have God glorified in them on that Day, and they will see and admire Jesus more than ever.
i. “To raise up such a number of poor, sinful, despicable worms out of the dust into such a sublime state of glory and dignity, will be admirable.” (Poole)
ii. We will admire what God has done in others and in us. “Those who look upon the saints will feel a sudden wonderment of sacred delight; they will be startled with the surprising glory of the Lord’s work in them; ‘We thought He would do great things, but this! This surpasseth conception!’ Every saint will be a wonder to himself. ‘I thought my bliss would be great, but not like this!’ All his brethren will be a wonder to the perfected believer. He will say, ‘I thought the saints would be perfect, but I never imagined such a transfiguration of excessive glory would be put upon each of them. I could not have imagined my Lord to be so good and gracious.’ ” (Spurgeon)
c. Because our testimony among you was believed: This shows the difference between one destined for judgment and one destined for glory. The difference is belief in the message Paul preached (our testimony), the simple gospel of Jesus Christ.
i. Paul knew what it was like to be transformed from a persecutor to the persecuted. He believed the testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and it changed his life. David Guzik Study Guide for 2 Thessalonians 1
Quote CHAPTER 1: THE PERSECUTION v.1 Silvanus here again is Silas. “Church” comes from a Greek word meaning “the called-out ones”.
v.3 “Meet” here means “proper.” Faith is increased through the knowledge of God, which comes through the study of His Word. Our spiritual growth is dependent on our study of the Bible.
v.4 The church was being persecuted, probably by the Judaizing teachers who had troubled the other young churches.
v.5 The Thessalonians were being troubled by man, not by God. God's wrath will be poured out on the world that has rejected His Son, not on His Church. God uses our sufferings to mature us (Romans 8:17-18; 1 Peter 4:12; 2 Timothy).
v.7-9 The punishment of those who don't know God will be banishment from both His presence and the glory of His power.
v.11 Paul prayed for the Thessalonians, that: 1. God would count them worthy of their calling (Luke 21:36). 2. God would bless them as He wanted to bless them. 3. The name of Jesus would be glorified through the witness of their transformed lives.
CHAPTER 2: THE DAY OF JUDGMENT
v.1 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
v.2 Paul told the Thessalonians not to be troubled in mind or spirit, nor by a letter supposedly from him claiming that the day of the Lord had come. The Christians were being taught that the day of God's wrath was upon them, and that they were in the Tribulation period.
v.3 The “day” referred to here is the Day of Judgment. “Falling away” comes from the Greek word for “depart.” This may refer to the Rapture of the Church, for the Day of Judgment will come after the Rapture. It may be a reference to people departing from the faith, for Paul spoke of another departure (1 Timothy 4:1) and used the same Greek word. However, in 1 Timothy Paul added the words “depart from the faith” instead of “depart” alone.
v.4 The Day of Judgment won't come until the Antichrist has set himself upon a throne in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15-20; Revelation 13:14; Isaiah 16).
v.7 “Letteth” means “hinders.” The Holy Spirit in the believers is hindering the Antichrist from revealing himself. Once the Holy Spirit's restraining power through the Church is removed, the Antichrist will make his move.
v.8 “Wicked” means “lawless.”
v.13 Acts 13:48.
v.15 The traditions Paul wanted the Thessalonians to adhere to were the teachings he gave them in person and by letter.
CHAPTER 3: EXHORTATIONS
v.1-2 Paul asked the Thessalonians to pray: 1. that the Word of God would flow freely through Him, and 2. that God would deliver him from unreasonable men.
v.6-12 Some of the brethren in the church weren't working to support themselves. Paul used himself as an example, for when he was in Thessalonica he paid his own expenses by working.
v.17 Paul brought attention to his signature, so they'd be able to identify his epistles and not be misled by false letters.
Chuck Smith Study Guide for 2 Thessalonians
Quote (georg @ Nov. 01 2009,01:44) If the Thessalonians saw the return of Christ, then what does the book of Revelation prophecy? Georg
What an excellent post.Quote (georg @ Nov. 01 2009,01:44) If the Thessalonians saw the return of Christ, then what does the book of Revelation prophecy? Georg
Georg,
The Revelation prophecies the destruction of Jerusalem and the apostate Jewish state known in the book as the “whore” and its replacement by the true bride the Lamb's wife. The book was fulfilled in John's own time.Rev. 1:1-3: 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must SHORTLY take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is NEAR.”
Rev. 3:10-11: “`Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is ABOUT TO COME upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. Lo, I come QUICKLY, be holding fast that which thou hast, that no one may receive thy crown.” YLT
See also 11:14, 17:8, 22:6-7, 22:10-12, 22:20
thinker
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