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Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 28 2007,04:24) Quote Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 28 2007,01:59)
LET THE BIBLE INTERPRET ITSELF!!![/b]I agree with your statement. However, I do have a question for you. Do you think it is necessary to understand the original language the verse is written in? Do you think it is important to understand the culture in which the writers of verse lived?
Hmmm to be honest Im not sure. I learned from everyone… and Doug Batchelor… he taught me the most. The first time I heard of Strong… was through a Zen Master. So hmm yeah you might be right.
Hugs
Phoenix
I am happy to hear you say that. In fact understanding the culture and language of the Hebrews is the first and most important thing one can do to interpret the bible. You see the Eastern cultures (especially the Hebrew culture) were vastly different then those we are used to living in. Trying to understand them from our perspective is a waste of time. They thought and wrote in ways we cannot understand when we think in Western ways. If you are truly ionterested in learning more, I might suggest you google “Ancient Hebrew research Center” and read some of the pieces written by Jeff Benner.“I don't think that is how even the Jews kept the sabbath”.
MS you are right the Jews can't keep the Sabbath spiritually. How could they? They don't believe in the one who made the law spiritual.
Quote (music4two @ Feb. 28 2007,14:31) Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 28 2007,04:24) Quote Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 28 2007,01:59)
LET THE BIBLE INTERPRET ITSELF!!![/b]I agree with your statement. However, I do have a question for you. Do you think it is necessary to understand the original language the verse is written in? Do you think it is important to understand the culture in which the writers of verse lived?
Hmmm to be honest Im not sure. I learned from everyone… and Doug Batchelor… he taught me the most. The first time I heard of Strong… was through a Zen Master. So hmm yeah you might be right.
Hugs
Phoenix
I am happy to hear you say that. In fact understanding the culture and language of the Hebrews is the first and most important thing one can do to interpret the bible. You see the Eastern cultures (especially the Hebrew culture) were vastly different then those we are used to living in. Trying to understand them from our perspective is a waste of time. They thought and wrote in ways we cannot understand when we think in Western ways. If you are truly ionterested in learning more, I might suggest you google “Ancient Hebrew research Center” and read some of the pieces written by Jeff Benner.
The bible was written by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit teaches and guides us. Why do we need man to tell us what the scriptures say. Doesn't the Holy Spirit know what He's doing?If you trust man (Satan's agent) you will be deceived.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:
**1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. **
Quote (music4two @ Feb. 28 2007,00:01) Before one begins to understand the 10 commandments, it would be wise to understand from a Hebrew perspective what a commandment is in their culture.
The Hebrew word for commandment is mits’vah. Most churches today, based on Western understanding of the English translations, lose the real meaning of the word. Mits’vah is not a rule, command, regulation or law. Rather the mits’vah or commandments are directive or guides to help us find our way. It is often used in conjuction with the word tsiyon which is “Zion”. So the commandments are directions to Zion.For a look at one commandment from a Hebrew perspective allow me to post a page from the Ancient Hebrew Research Center.
Exodus 20:7
By: Jeff A. Benner
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vainTake (Strong's #5375)
The Hebrew verb behind this English word is
(nasa) and is a very generic verb used in a wide variety ways in the text. This word has been translated as lift, carry, accept, exalt, regard, obtain, respect and many other ways. In the context of this verse it is the “name” that is being “lifted up.” One lifts up a name by making it known to others. Name (Strong's #8034)
In our modern western culture a name is nothing more than an identifier, really no different than being assigned a number. The Hebrew word for a name is ?? (shem) But, in the Ancient Hebrews culture the “shem” is much more than just a name it is the “breath” of the individual. To the Hebrews the breath is more than just the exchange of air in the lungs it is his “character,” the internal qualities of an individual that make him unique. This idea of the word shem meaning character can be seen in 1 Kings 4:31, “and his fame was in all the nations round about.” Here, the word fame is understood as his “character.”
All Hebrew names are words with meaning and these words reflects their characters. For instance, Eve (Hhavah in Hebrew) means “life” because she is the mother of all the living (Hhay, a related word to Hhavah, see Genesis 3:20). The names for God is no different. The name Yahweh means “he exists” and God (Elohiym) means “one of power and authority.” Some other names of God include “Jealous” (Exodus 34:14), “One” (Zechariah 14:9 which literally reads “his name is one”), Holy (Isaiah 57:15) and others. What is God's name? Most will answer with Yahweh or God but we must remember that a name or shem in Hebrew is the character of the individual so the correct question should be “What is God's character?”Vain (Strong's #7723)
The third word that we need to understand correctly is the word “vain.” This is the Hebrew word (sheva). This word literally means “empty” and vain actions are empty of substance. This word can also be understood as “falsely” in the sense of being empty of its true substance. This idea can be seen in Exodus 23:1, “You shall not utter a false report.” The word “false” is the very same Hebrew word (sheva).
Now that we have a more complete understanding of the words in the passage we are able to make a more Hebraic interpretation.
You shall not represent the character of Elohiym FalselySo, what does this mean? In another study we saw that when it says “God created man in his own image” it is in fact saying that God had placed within us a representation of himself. This representation is his shem or character and we are to show this character to others. If however, we represent that character falsely, in other words live our lives contrary to the character of God, then we are violating this command.
I hope that sheds a bit of light on the subject.
Thanks for saving me some typing.The bible was written by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit teaches and guides us. Why do we need man to tell us what the scriptures say. Doesn't the Holy Spirit know what He's doing?
If you trust man (Satan's agent) you will be deceived.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:
**1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. **
Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 28 2007,14:30) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 28 2007,06:11) thanks I would like you to consider this:
Polycarp and Ignatius were disciples of John the Apostle.
Polycarp and Ignatius teach the view on the sabbath that I am sharing.
Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna at the time revelations was written.
Polycarp received praise from Jesus in the following verses.
To the Church in Smyrna
Revelations 2
8″To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.
MS I go only by the word that was written by the Holy Spirit.The Spirit that bears witness that I am a child of the living God.
Paul said that wolves would enter the church right after he leaves. And they did Satan didn't waste anytime. I can't trust the writings of the “early fathers” or the many writers today.
Act 20:29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;
Worship God ALL day.
My point here is that Jesus gave approval to Polycarp.Do you see this?
Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 28 2007,15:11) Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 28 2007,14:30) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 28 2007,06:11) thanks I would like you to consider this:
Polycarp and Ignatius were disciples of John the Apostle.
Polycarp and Ignatius teach the view on the sabbath that I am sharing.
Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna at the time revelations was written.
Polycarp received praise from Jesus in the following verses.
To the Church in Smyrna
Revelations 2
8″To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.
MS I go only by the word that was written by the Holy Spirit.The Spirit that bears witness that I am a child of the living God.
Paul said that wolves would enter the church right after he leaves. And they did Satan didn't waste anytime. I can't trust the writings of the “early fathers” or the many writers today.
Act 20:29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;
Worship God ALL day.
My point here is that Jesus gave approval to Polycarp.Do you see this?
Not quite like the church of Philadelphia were they?Why was that?
Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.I don't know who was bishop of this or that church. i don't know who the early church fathers were. To men's writings I'm ignorant and I like it that way.
I believe the Holy Spirit knows what He is doing. The Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit. He guides me to ALL truth.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
I trust no man. Only the Spirit and the word. To me this is why there is so much confusion Satan has placed his ministers in the church many centuries ago.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 28 2007,14:59) The bible was written by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit teaches and guides us. Why do we need man to tell us what the scriptures say. Doesn't the Holy Spirit know what He's doing? If you trust man (Satan's agent) you will be deceived.
I think these are some of the most rediculous statements I have ever seen posted on any of the dozen boards I have seen.Why do you post in English? That is not the Holy Language of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit wrote in ancient Hebrew pictographs . You should not use translations made by Satan's agents.
It is helpfull in one respect. I can discount everything you say and so can everyone else, since you are one of Satan's agenst. (your words not mine) We all might as well stop posting because everything everyone has to say is coming from Satan's Agents.
Get over it!!!!
Well brothers and sisters I must go to the grocery on this forth day of the week. And with me will be God for His Spirit dwells in me. But while I'm reading labels and deciding what to buy etc. My mind will not be entirely on my Father as on HIS day.
May the Holy Spirit guide ALL of us as we seek truth,
Ken
Quote (music4two @ Feb. 28 2007,15:36) Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 28 2007,14:59) The bible was written by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit teaches and guides us. Why do we need man to tell us what the scriptures say. Doesn't the Holy Spirit know what He's doing? If you trust man (Satan's agent) you will be deceived.
I think these are some of the most rediculous statements I have ever seen posted on any of the dozen boards I have seen.Why do you post in English? That is not the Holy Language of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit wrote in ancient Hebrew pictographs . You should not use translations made by Satan's agents.
It is helpfull in one respect. I can discount everything you say and so can everyone else, since you are one of Satan's agenst. (your words not mine) We all might as well stop posting because everything everyone has to say is coming from Satan's Agents.
Get over it!!!!
AH! I'm sorry you feel that way. In fact I'm sadden that you feel that way. But more I'm fear for your salvation because you trust in man instead of the Spirit of God.1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and “ye need not that any man teach you”: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
You deny the very words oF God?
I really must go.
Latter IHL,
Ken
Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 28 2007,15:46) Quote (music4two @ Feb. 28 2007,15:36) Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 28 2007,14:59) The bible was written by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit teaches and guides us. Why do we need man to tell us what the scriptures say. Doesn't the Holy Spirit know what He's doing? If you trust man (Satan's agent) you will be deceived.
I think these are some of the most rediculous statements I have ever seen posted on any of the dozen boards I have seen.Why do you post in English? That is not the Holy Language of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit wrote in ancient Hebrew pictographs . You should not use translations made by Satan's agents.
It is helpfull in one respect. I can discount everything you say and so can everyone else, since you are one of Satan's agenst. (your words not mine) We all might as well stop posting because everything everyone has to say is coming from Satan's Agents.
Get over it!!!!
AH! I'm sorry you feel that way. In fact I'm sadden that you feel that way. But more I'm fear for your salvation because you trust in man instead of the Spirit of God.1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and “ye need not that any man teach you”: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
You deny the very words oF God?
I really must go.
Latter IHL,
Ken
I am saddened for you and fear your salvatin is in peril because you just used an English version of the Bible that was translated by an Agent of Satan. (man)
Secondly you interpet within yourself what the Holy Spirit is telling you and you cannot be trusted because you are an agent of satan. (your words not mine)Why don't you admit your hipocracy. What you are really saying is that anyone who does not agree with your edicts of what the Holy Spirit is saying must be learning from man who is an agent of Satan. By what wild stretch of the imagination are you the authority on what is being said by the Holy Spirit to others. Jeff Benner, who worte the info I posted can as easily say that the Holy Spirit told him his interpretation of the ancient Hebrew is correct as you can say yours is. I can as easily say that the Pictographs I have interpreted are as much taught by the Holy Spirit as anything you have posted.
Hi Music
Quote I am happy to hear you say that. In fact understanding the culture and language of the Hebrews is the first and most important thing one can do to interpret the bible. You see the Eastern cultures (especially the Hebrew culture) were vastly different then those we are used to living in. Trying to understand them from our perspective is a waste of time. They thought and wrote in ways we cannot understand when we think in Western ways. If you are truly ionterested in learning more, I might suggest you google “Ancient Hebrew research Center” and read some of the pieces written by Jeff Benner. Im sorry Youre not listening to me. I said Let the Bible interpret itself. Why would I waste my time reading what other people write. We are in the End Times NOW why am I going to waste time reading something outside the Bible. All the Answers are in the Bible. Not in some history book. I cant understand why people bring in all these other people whose names are NOT even in the bible and claim… that we should acknowledge them. NO!
Hugs
PhoenixQuote (Phoenix @ Feb. 28 2007,16:26) Hi Music Quote I am happy to hear you say that. In fact understanding the culture and language of the Hebrews is the first and most important thing one can do to interpret the bible. You see the Eastern cultures (especially the Hebrew culture) were vastly different then those we are used to living in. Trying to understand them from our perspective is a waste of time. They thought and wrote in ways we cannot understand when we think in Western ways. If you are truly ionterested in learning more, I might suggest you google “Ancient Hebrew research Center” and read some of the pieces written by Jeff Benner. Im sorry Youre not listening to me. I said Let the Bible interpret itself. Why would I waste my time reading what other people write. We are in the End Times NOW why am I going to waste time reading something outside the Bible. All the Answers are in the Bible. Not in some history book. I cant understand why people bring in all these other people whose names are NOT even in the bible and claim… that we should acknowledge them. NO!
Hugs
Phoenix
Well, I respect the writings of the early Christian writers. I do not consider them to be scripture. I use them to determine the course of performance.Example: I go to church and hear the pastor say that women are not to wear a head covering because Jesus is their covering and that back then Paul was only speaking of some custom. Yet, when you actually go and research what the early Christians at Corinth actually believed and practiced you discover that they truly took Paul's words literally and that woman are to wear the head covering. In fact historically Christian woman have been wearing a head covering up until the last few generations. Women wore hats up until the fifties.
I don't think all the early church fathers were heretics, these men died martyrs deaths. These men were disciples of the apostles. Some of these men actually received praise within our bibles. example: Clement of Rome in Phillipians chapter 4.
The idea of sola scriptura is a lie. It is obvious reading the scriptures that the believers were to follow both the written and the spoken teachings of the apostles. This issue becomes more troublesome once one realizes our scriptures have shrank in size over the centuries.
Our bibles touch apon many subjects but never provide solid teachings on several doctrines. Such as the doctrine of hades. This has caused huge confusion especially among those groups who take the bible and try to use it expressly to interpret itself, while ignoring all other evidence and witnesses to help clarify an issue. This cause beliefs like “soul sleep” that the Church of God and the JW's teach.
The truth is our bibles have changed over the milleniums. The apostles taught out of the Septuagiant. We use the masoretic text. The septuagint bible was the churches bible until 600 AD when the Roman Church switched to the masoretic text. The Masoretic text was not finished until 100 AD.
The septuagint contains several books of the apocrypha. The writers of the New Testament quote or teach from these books quite often. In fact up until the last 100 years ALL bibles included the apocrypha, even the King James version.
Jesus even quotes from the Septuagint. A Masoretic prototype existed at Jesus time yet he chose to quote from the Septuagint. Ponder this.
Even key doctrines hinge on the Septuagint version. Example: In the septuagint the verse in Isaiah that states “The virgin will conceive” actually reads “young woman” in the masoretic text. The translators fudge in order to match the New Testemant. Is this honestly seeking truth? Yet, in the Septuagint it reads “Virgin”.
Simply, read the all the quotes in the new testament that quote the Old testament and then go back and look and you will see most of them don't match. Why? Because we switched Old Testaments.
The Septuagint is an older version. It is not some sloppy translation like many have been led to believe. In fact once the dead sea scrolls were discovered there was initial reports stating how they matched our masoretic bibles so closely. Now a more somber tone has been set as the truth came out. The dead sea scrolls give support to the Septaugint and not the Masoretic text.
food for thought.
Hi Music
Hmmm I havent seen you prove much (in fact anything) with scriptures of the bible. I take it you dont believe in the bible?? Its amazing… why are you here?
Here to lure people to believe you? Because they believe in God and not SATAN. Music, are you saying this because you are angry because you cant prove Ken wrong that you have to throw nasty remarks at him?? Are you angry because he throws scripture after scripture at you that you have to TWIST it to say the bible was interpreted by MAN (satans so called agents). Shame on you man. This is the perfect example of someone who cant stand the bible!!
Whoever it was that told me to “reject the epistle of paul”
Acts 17:2 As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Paul still observed the Sabbath.. No?
Acts 18:4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
I believe this is Paul that observed the Sabbath. No? Also take note… its not just JEWS its Greeks as well!!!
Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
Tell me why would Jesus say that??? Why did he ask us to pray that the abomination will not take place on a Sabbath?? hmm??? I will tell you why…. because he expects the Sabbath to be still observed in the End Times!!!! thats why. And are you doing it? NO!!!
Hugs
PhoenixHi MS
Well youre the Genius.
Why have you not gone out and re PUBLISHED the Septuagint then huh? If its so much better than the bible then where is it?? Why is it still sitting under dust?
Sorry Im not convinced
Hugs
PhoenixQuote (Phoenix @ Feb. 28 2007,17:13) Hi MS Well youre the Genius.
Why have you not gone out and re PUBLISHED the Septuagint then huh? If its so much better than the bible then where is it?? Why is it still sitting under dust?
Sorry Im not convinced
Hugs
PhoenixNo need for me to do that, it isn't sitting under dust.
The eastern churches never changed their old testament only the Catholics and Protestants and all their offspring.
Btw, I really don't want to make you angry. I honestly, just want positive dialogue. If the way I write misrepresents myself as coming across as arrogant then I apologize.
I have a hard time communicating in this medium. There is no way for my body language, tone of voice or facial expressions to help contribute in this area.
I am just sharing information. I can't do anything more but pray. You can reject or look into as you will. I do not feel like I am in any kind of competition.
Hi MS
Nope you write fine I just get sick of hearing about things that are not mentioned in the bible. I will reject that book simply because its just another translation of the bible bit like the Quran. Tell me do you trust the Quran too? Im not being smart either. Im annoyed though
Hugs
PhoenixQuote (Phoenix @ Feb. 28 2007,17:28) Hi MS Nope you write fine I just get sick of hearing about things that are not mentioned in the bible. I will reject that book simply because its just another translation of the bible bit like the Quran. Tell me do you trust the Quran too? Im not being smart either. Im annoyed though
Hugs
Phoenix
Their is a huge difference in your comparison. It would be more logically sound for me to compare the masoretic text with the Quran since there use became more standard at approximately the same time.Jesus and the apostles used the Septuagint.
This isn't debatable this is fact. Evidence on practically every page of the New Testament.
The Septuagint includes more books and has slightly different wordings in key passages.
You also mentioned that you are tired of hearing the testamonies of men not even in the bible. I mentioned both Polycarp and Clement. Clement is mentioned by name. You haven't responded to that.
Since Clement is mentioned in the bible, since he is given praise by Paul and since he is qualified by the passage his name is written in the book of life then would you consider for a moment at least hearing what he had to say?
Phillipians 4
3Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 28 2007,17:33) UGH Sorry not Quran the Torah I was meant to say
Oh ok that makes more sense.However, the Torah is what you use. The masoretic version of the first five books of the bible.
Maybe, you mean Talmud? If so I may reference it from a historic point of view, but like all other ancient writings I deffinately don't think it is scripture. The talmud has horrible things to say about Jesus that I can't repeat.
Clement? Im not even sure of. I was going to respond to your Polycarp statement. but I thought NO because incase you didnt notice Youre changing the Topic am I right?
This is about the 10 commandments. Dont waste my time. You know the commandments are to be kept but it is so typical for a believer of satan to divert things
Hugs
Phoenix
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