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Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 28 2007,02:07) Quote Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 27 2007,23:35)
Then reject Gods Law like all those nonbelieversBleh typos
I dont reject it I believe in following the fulfilled version.
Which is stricter and narrower.
I dont even wanna talk to you. If its ok for you to throw insults at me I will throw it back. I dont reject Pauls writings either he is just hard to understand like Peter said…. But I think Id rather follow God not Paul. God has made it clear right through the WHOLE bible about his commandments even in Revelations
Like I said above Let the Bible interpret itself… not some History book.
First of all, I must have came across wrong. I apologize.I did not throw any insults at you. I apologize that I came across that way.
I honestly believe I am just proclaiming what Paul and the early Christians believed about the Sabbath in comparison to some of the Ebionite believers.
Usually sabbatarians say “what is wrong with the sabbath?”.
They say this because they realize Most Christians don't have a problem with any of the other commmandments. It is only the sabbath they have a problem with.
Well, I turn that logic back on the sabbatarians. The sabbatarians will acknowledge that Jesus modified (fulfilled) the other commandments into a narrower field, yet it is only the Sabbath they assert was not modified.
So, to sabbatarians I say why is it you believe the Sabbath was the only unfulfilled uneffected commandment?
Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 28 2007,04:24) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 27 2007,23:44) Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 27 2007,23:35) Then reject Gods Law like all those nonbelievers Bleh typos
I dont reject it I believe in following the fulfilled version.Which is stricter and narrower.
By keeping the Sabbath everyday? You are striving to do what God didn't even do! That's why you cannot and never will! You don't think you can out do God do you? God made the other six days to work and that's what you will do.
Yes but God was finished after the 7th.And so are we now that we are Sons of God who are in the Kingdom of God.
Quote I honestly believe I am just proclaiming what Paul and the early Christians believed about the Sabbath in comparison to some of the Ebionite believers. Show me the scripture from the bible that says this
Quote So, to sabbatarians I say why is it you believe the Sabbath was the only unfulfilled uneffected commandment? Well Im not gonna answer that because Im not a Sabbatarian
Hugs
PhoenixQuote (Morning Star @ Feb. 28 2007,04:29) Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 28 2007,04:24) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 27 2007,23:44) Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 27 2007,23:35) Then reject Gods Law like all those nonbelievers Bleh typos
I dont reject it I believe in following the fulfilled version.Which is stricter and narrower.
By keeping the Sabbath everyday? You are striving to do what God didn't even do! That's why you cannot and never will! You don't think you can out do God do you? God made the other six days to work and that's what you will do.
Yes but God was finished after the 7th.And so are we now that we are Sons of God who are in the Kingdom of God.
God is finished? I beg to differ but the new earth and heaven are not here. Heaven and earth are not passed away yet.Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The last enemy is death.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul explicitly refers to the Sabbath as a shadow of Christ, which is no longer binding since the substance (Christ) has come. It is quite clear in those verses that the weekly Sabbath is in view. The phrase “a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day” refers to the annual, monthly, and weekly holy days of the Jewish calendar (cf. 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4, 31:3; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11). If Paul were referring to special ceremonial dates of rest in that passage, why would he have used the word “Sabbath?” He had already mentioned the ceremonial dates when he spoke of festivals and new moons.
The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.
The New Testament never commands Christians to observe the Sabbath.
In our only glimpse of an early church worship service in the New Testament, the church met on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).
Nowhere in the Old Testament are the Gentile nations commanded to observe the Sabbath or condemned for failing to do so. That is certainly strange if Sabbath observance were meant to be an eternal moral principle.
There is no evidence in the Bible of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the time of Moses, nor are there any commands in the Bible to keep the Sabbath before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.
When the Apostles met at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), they did not impose Sabbath keeping on the Gentile believers.
The apostle Paul warned the Gentiles about many different sins in his epistles, but breaking the Sabbath was never one of them.
In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath).
In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers).
The early church fathers, from Ignatius to Augustine, taught that the Old Testament Sabbath had been abolished and that the first day of the week (Sunday) was the day when Christians should meet for worship (contrary to the claim of many seventh-day Sabbatarians who claim that Sunday worship was not instituted until the fourth century).
Sunday has not replaced Saturday as the Sabbath. Rather the Lord's Day is a time when believers gather to commemorate His resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week. Every day to the believer is one of Sabbath rest, since we have ceased from our spiritual labor and are resting in the salvation of the Lord (Hebrews 4:9-11).
Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 28 2007,04:25) Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 28 2007,02:07) Quote Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 27 2007,23:35)
Then reject Gods Law like all those nonbelieversBleh typos
I dont reject it I believe in following the fulfilled version.
Which is stricter and narrower.
I dont even wanna talk to you. If its ok for you to throw insults at me I will throw it back. I dont reject Pauls writings either he is just hard to understand like Peter said…. But I think Id rather follow God not Paul. God has made it clear right through the WHOLE bible about his commandments even in Revelations
Like I said above Let the Bible interpret itself… not some History book.
First of all, I must have came across wrong. I apologize.I did not throw any insults at you. I apologize that I came across that way.
I honestly believe I am just proclaiming what Paul and the early Christians believed about the Sabbath in comparison to some of the Ebionite believers.
Usually sabbatarians say “what is wrong with the sabbath?”.
They say this because they realize Most Christians don't have a problem with any of the other commmandments. It is only the sabbath they have a problem with.
Well, I turn that logic back on the sabbatarians. The sabbatarians will acknowledge that Jesus modified (fulfilled) the other commandments into a narrower field, yet it is only the Sabbath they assert was not modified.
So, to sabbatarians I say why is it you believe the Sabbath was the only unfulfilled uneffected commandment?
Well I don't know who you are speaking of? But I keep the Sabbath the way the Holy Spirit wants me too. Which is the way Jesus kept it.It is the forth commandment of God.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:[WHY?] for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 28 2007,04:36) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 28 2007,04:29) Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 28 2007,04:24) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 27 2007,23:44) Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 27 2007,23:35) Then reject Gods Law like all those nonbelievers Bleh typos
I dont reject it I believe in following the fulfilled version.Which is stricter and narrower.
By keeping the Sabbath everyday? You are striving to do what God didn't even do! That's why you cannot and never will! You don't think you can out do God do you? God made the other six days to work and that's what you will do.
Yes but God was finished after the 7th.And so are we now that we are Sons of God who are in the Kingdom of God.
God is finished? I beg to differ but the new earth and heaven are not here. Heaven and earth are not passed away yet.Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The last enemy is death.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
The law has not passed away; it has been fulfilled.I agree.
The Bible said God was finished.
Then Christ said it was finished.
Yes there is more to come at the end of this age, but I am simply stating scripture.
For this age it is finished and accomplished.
Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 28 2007,04:44) In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul explicitly refers to the Sabbath as a shadow of Christ, which is no longer binding since the substance (Christ) has come. It is quite clear in those verses that the weekly Sabbath is in view. The phrase “a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day” refers to the annual, monthly, and weekly holy days of the Jewish calendar (cf. 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4, 31:3; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11). If Paul were referring to special ceremonial dates of rest in that passage, why would he have used the word “Sabbath?” He had already mentioned the ceremonial dates when he spoke of festivals and new moons. The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.
The New Testament never commands Christians to observe the Sabbath.
In our only glimpse of an early church worship service in the New Testament, the church met on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).
Nowhere in the Old Testament are the Gentile nations commanded to observe the Sabbath or condemned for failing to do so. That is certainly strange if Sabbath observance were meant to be an eternal moral principle.
There is no evidence in the Bible of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the time of Moses, nor are there any commands in the Bible to keep the Sabbath before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.
When the Apostles met at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), they did not impose Sabbath keeping on the Gentile believers.
The apostle Paul warned the Gentiles about many different sins in his epistles, but breaking the Sabbath was never one of them.
In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath).
In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers).
The early church fathers, from Ignatius to Augustine, taught that the Old Testament Sabbath had been abolished and that the first day of the week (Sunday) was the day when Christians should meet for worship (contrary to the claim of many seventh-day Sabbatarians who claim that Sunday worship was not instituted until the fourth century).
Sunday has not replaced Saturday as the Sabbath. Rather the Lord's Day is a time when believers gather to commemorate His resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week. Every day to the believer is one of Sabbath rest, since we have ceased from our spiritual labor and are resting in the salvation of the Lord (Hebrews 4:9-11).
The law of God and the law of Moses are separate.God's law placed inside the ark and Moses Law placed on the side of the ark.
Now what are you going to do with Matthew?
Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.What is Paul saying here?
1Co 9:20 And I became to the Jews a Jew, that I might gain the Jews: To them that are under the law, as if I were under the law, (whereas myself was not under the law,) that I might gain them that were under the law.Paul became as a Jew keeping the feasts AND ANNUAL SABBATHS
1Co 9:21 To them that were without the law, as if I were without the law, (whereas I was not without the law of God, but was in the law of Christ,) that I might gain them that were without the law.
BUT Paul “was not without the law of GOD”. But in the law of Christ.
Is this not two separate laws. Christ fulfilling the law of Moses.Luk 24:44 And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled which are written in the law of Moses and in the prophets and in the psalms, concerning me.
Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 28 2007,04:50) Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 28 2007,04:36) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 28 2007,04:29) Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 28 2007,04:24) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 27 2007,23:44) Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 27 2007,23:35) Then reject Gods Law like all those nonbelievers Bleh typos
I dont reject it I believe in following the fulfilled version.Which is stricter and narrower.
By keeping the Sabbath everyday? You are striving to do what God didn't even do! That's why you cannot and never will! You don't think you can out do God do you? God made the other six days to work and that's what you will do.
Yes but God was finished after the 7th.And so are we now that we are Sons of God who are in the Kingdom of God.
God is finished? I beg to differ but the new earth and heaven are not here. Heaven and earth are not passed away yet.Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The last enemy is death.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
The law has not passed away; it has been fulfilled.I agree.
The Bible said God was finished.
Then Christ said it was finished.
Yes there is more to come at the end of this age, but I am simply stating scripture.
For this age it is finished and accomplished.
All these things are your (or some other man's) ideas. Give me scripture. YOU say God is finished. The word says not until heaven and earth have passed away.
Matt. 5:17-19In our only glimpse of an early church worship service in the New Testament, the church met on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).
Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
Why did the apostles come together?
“… And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came 'together to break bread”…
Does scripture say they came together to worship?
The apostles and early church broke bread everyday.
Act 2:46 And continuing “daily” with one accord in the temple and “breaking bread from house to house”, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart:
Acts 15 taken in context is speaking of Moses' law the Jews were trying to impose on the Gentiles.
Act 15:5 But there arose of the sect of the Pharisees some that believed, saying: They must be circumcised and be commanded to observe the law of Moses.
Abstain from blood? What does that have to do with the Sabbath? Did the apostles tell the Gentiles that it was alright to murder?
Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 28 2007,04:50) Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 28 2007,04:36) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 28 2007,04:29) Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 28 2007,04:24) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 27 2007,23:44) Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 27 2007,23:35) Then reject Gods Law like all those nonbelievers Bleh typos
I dont reject it I believe in following the fulfilled version.Which is stricter and narrower.
By keeping the Sabbath everyday? You are striving to do what God didn't even do! That's why you cannot and never will! You don't think you can out do God do you? God made the other six days to work and that's what you will do.
Yes but God was finished after the 7th.And so are we now that we are Sons of God who are in the Kingdom of God.
God is finished? I beg to differ but the new earth and heaven are not here. Heaven and earth are not passed away yet.Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The last enemy is death.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
The law has not passed away; it has been fulfilled.I agree.
The Bible said God was finished.
Then Christ said it was finished.
Yes there is more to come at the end of this age, but I am simply stating scripture.
For this age it is finished and accomplished.
God rested after creation. And jesus said it is finished and it was Moses' law was fulfilled HIS suffering for all mankind was finished. You are twisting the scriptures because you have no scriptures that say the Sabbath day is void.I'm still waiting for scripture.
I am sorry I dont think I am making myself clear.
God DOES expect us to observe the sabbath, just as he does the other 9 laws.
The difference comes in that EXACTLY like the other 9 laws the exact way one observes the sabbath has been narrowed.
It is an everday way of live. Keeping onself sanctified not just once per week but daily.
I totally agree with Matthew and the Sermon on the Mount it is there where we find Jesus discussing his fulfilled versions of the law.
It is also in Mathew where we find Jesus himself not following the sabbath. Let me clarify!
I think he was following the sabbath, but differently than the way the other Jews kept it.
He was living daily for his Father and even did work on the sabbath. Good things can be done on the sabbath even if that good thing was work.
Would Jesus tell us in one moment that anyone who teaches others to break a commandment is least in heaven and then demonstrate to his disciples how to break the sabbath and let them pick grain?
No, Jesus taught the new fulfilled way to observe the sabbath daily. By doing all things for the glory of God and in all things being sacred and in nothing profane (secular).
Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 28 2007,05:17) I am sorry I dont think I am making myself clear. God DOES expect us to observe the sabbath, just as he does the other 9 laws.
The difference comes in that EXACTLY like the other 9 laws the exact way one observes the sabbath has been narrowed.
It is an everday way of live. Keeping onself sanctified not just once per week but daily.
I totally agree with Matthew and the Sermon on the Mount it is there where we find Jesus discussing his fulfilled versions of the law.
It is also in Mathew where we find Jesus himself not following the sabbath. Let me clarify!
I think he was following the sabbath, but differently than the way the other Jews kept it.
He was living daily for his Father and even did work on the sabbath. Good things can be done on the sabbath even if that good thing was work.
Would Jesus tell us in one moment that anyone who teaches others to break a commandment is least in heaven and then demonstrate to his disciples how to break the sabbath and let them pick grain?
No, Jesus taught the new fulfilled way to observe the sabbath daily. By doing all things for the glory of God and in all things being sacred and in nothing profane (secular).
MS did Jesus change the day. He said the Sabbath is made for man. Why? You cannot keep the Sabbath day everyday. You cannot with your whole mind worship God while working or making love to your wife. Sure God vists with me everyday but the work days or with my wife my mind is simply not on God. I cannot and you cannot worship God with everything you are on work days. When the new heaven and earth comes then yes but until then this heaven and earth have not passed away.No I don't think I can. Not the way you describe it.
I don't think that is how even the Jews kept the sabbath.
In fact, I believe a christian carpenter humming a hymn to his God while he sands the surface of a table is for more in line with the truth than a Jew who walked passed the sick person on the road not wanting to get near him to avoid being unclean on the sabbath.
Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 28 2007,05:31) No I don't think I can. Not the way you describe it. I don't think that is how even the Jews kept the sabbath.
In fact, I believe a christian carpenter humming a hymn to his God while he sands the surface of a table is for more in line with the truth than a Jew who walked passed the sick person on the road not wanting to get near him to avoid being unclean on the sabbath.
I appreciate your honesty. I also appreciate that you know that the Ten Commandments are spiritual and not done away with as some churches teach. I know you are not saying I'm right and you are wrong.The Father wants us to worship Him with everything we are. When the new heaven and earth comes then the old heaven and earth would have passed away God will be all in all.
This is one of the things the Sabbath day points to of course as I said it also says that God is your creator and God.
Please pray about it and try to keep the Sabbath. I know I'm blessed by worshiping God all day. It is a delight!
Yes as I said God will vist me during the week. Out of no where a voice will say “I love you Ken” with the chills and all my hair standing up.
It's like for now Dad calls during the week and we vist Him on the day He said. But one day we will go and live with Our Father in His Mansion.
Try the Sabbath but I warn you your flesh will rise up against you. It did for me at first but I learned to discipline my mind and stay in the Spirit longer and longer each Sabbath.
Good night brother,
IHL,
Ken
thanks
I would like you to consider this:
Polycarp and Ignatius were disciples of John the Apostle.
Polycarp and Ignatius teach the view on the sabbath that I am sharing.
Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna at the time revelations was written.
Polycarp received praise from Jesus in the following verses.
To the Church in Smyrna
Revelations 2
8″To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.Hi kenrch,
What are the commandments of Jesus?
The ten commandments?
He never spoke of the ten as being his commandments and he gave us moreYou must be born again.
Love one another AS I HAVE LOVED YOU-that is unto death.So are there twelve?
Hi Nick
Quote So are there twelve? Getting back to what you said a few pages back…
Quote Matt 22
“36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
The first 4 Commandments deal with the Love for God
The remainding 6 deal with the Love for your Neighbour or FellowmenHugs
PhoenixQuote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2007,06:14) Hi kenrch,
What are the commandments of Jesus?
The ten commandments?
He never spoke of the ten as being his commandments and he gave us moreYou must be born again.
Love one another AS I HAVE LOVED YOU-that is unto death.So are there twelve?
Yes Nick you must be born again. You keep saying what Jesus did not say. Why don't you accept what He did say.Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 28 2007,06:11) thanks I would like you to consider this:
Polycarp and Ignatius were disciples of John the Apostle.
Polycarp and Ignatius teach the view on the sabbath that I am sharing.
Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna at the time revelations was written.
Polycarp received praise from Jesus in the following verses.
To the Church in Smyrna
Revelations 2
8″To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.
MS I go only by the word that was written by the Holy Spirit.The Spirit that bears witness that I am a child of the living God.
Paul said that wolves would enter the church right after he leaves. And they did Satan didn't waste anytime. I can't trust the writings of the “early fathers” or the many writers today.
Act 20:29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;
Worship God ALL day.
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