The Ten Commandments

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2007,23:30)

Hi 94, Matt 5 Context '1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, “ 14-19 ” 14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” The light is that of the Spirit of Christ in us, who are in him, teaching and enabling us to follow him. That light shines forth in love to all that we do and that love produces good fruit. The Law remains as a reminder of what God sees as sinful but now we do not just try and abide by them but let the Spirit work in us to produce good fruit in the will of God while not neglecting to check by the rules that the behaviours are of God. That set of rules was life and death to the Jews but we are no longer in danger of condemnation by them as there is no condemnation for them that are in Christ Jesus but can still learn from them as they remain true, and we still sin.

OK Nick:

Then you agree that Jesus was talking about the ten commandments when he said: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.  For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments (this does not look like just a reminder to me and he did not say these commandments except for the Sabbath commandment) and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them (this does not sound like just a reminder to me), the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

David was not sure if he was talking about the ten commandments or not, and so I am sure glad that we cleared that up.

Now, to proceed Jesus states: “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, thou shall not kill and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of judgment: but I say unto you whoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool shall be in danger of hell fire”.  (Matt. 5:21-22)

“You have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shall not commit adultery: but I say unto you , that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart”. (Matt. 5:28)

And I can go on and show that all of the commandments are taught, but I wanted to show that this is not just a reminder to me.

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven”.  (Matt. 7:21)

“Therefore whosoever hearth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: and the rains descended, and floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house: and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock”.  (Matt. 7:24-25)

Besides the fact that I love him and keep his commandments because of my love for him and humanity, I want to be considers to be a wise man.

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
So if you zealously obey all the commandments except the one to be reborn from above will that save you?

[kenrch]

If you are born from above then you keep the Commandments.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

It's just that simple.

Good night, I mean good morning

I H L,

Ken

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 23 2007,04:14)

Hi 94, So if you zealously obey all the commandments except the one to be reborn from above will that save you?

Yes, Nick, if I could obey them all without violating any of them it would save me, but of course I know that I can not, and you know better than to ask me that question as you know that this word applies to born again believers who do make mistakes, and if it were not for the blood of Jesus not one of would be saved, but I believe that I have made my point whether or not you will admit it.

God Bless

[Is 1:18]

A thought I had, and not an original one I imagine….

Question: Are all men capable of sinning?

Given that 'sin' is defined as trangression of YHWH's Law (1 John 3:4), on what grounds could YHWH hold guilty men accountable for sin if there was no frame of reference for sin (i.e. the law)? Or to put it more succinctly, how could sin be imputed to an unrighteous man not under that law?

If the law is applicable to some groups and not others then 'sin' is not a universal human condition, but the Bible says otherwise:-

Romans 3:9-12
9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;11no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Romans 5:18-21
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Phoenix]

Hi IS

I was pointed to the scriptures in Romans Chapter 3 and to start from Verse 19 and read to the end. This was by my bible tutor (whom I am now in debate with which I think she has gone a bit anti towards me) and I agree with Ken.

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

I wont paste the rest here. but at the end of this chapter it says in the scripture…

31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Like Ken said…. it didnt say we were to render the law “inoperative” but to uphold the law.

Anyway, Ken please help me with this.

My study tutor then replies to me this… we have the Old Testament (Old Agreement) and then we have the New Testament (New Agreement) and then she ends it with a sarcastic “okay?” (so I thought)

LOL. Im not going to argue with her and have decided to drop it but yeah… since she couldnt really explain it in detail to me I assumed that she was telling me that the New Testament means the New Laws therefore the Old Testament or Old Laws are no longer applicable. Right?

Hugs
Phoenix

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
From another thread. You said
“Since all men have sinned, if there were no provision for a resurrection from the dead, then we would all be dead or separated from God forever because “the wages of sin is death” so that is what we have earned by violating God's Law, the Ten Commandments.”

Sin is forgiven in the kingdom and there is ongoing forgiveness available and no condemnation for them who seek to keep their feet clean.

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2007,21:11)

Hi 94, From another thread. You said “Since all men have sinned, if there were no provision for a resurrection from the dead, then we would all be dead or separated from God forever because “the wages of sin is death” so that is what we have earned by violating God's Law, the Ten Commandments.” Sin is forgiven in the kingdom and there is ongoing forgiveness available and no condemnation for them who seek to keep their feet clean.

Hi Nick:

That is true we have to repent when we violate God's law, and if it were not for the blood of Jesus, we could not receive forgiveness, and so we strive to obey but we make mistakes, and I make them all of the time.  I don't like to make them and I try to learn from my mistakes.  But I am not practicing sin wilfully, I am striving to obey God's commandments.

It is wonderful to know that if I make a mistake I am not condemned.  Because Jesus lives I can face tomorrow, and because he lives, all my fear is gone, because I know he holds my future, and life is worth the living just because he lives.

Also, when I make a mistake, I acknowledge that I have made a mistake and ask for forgiveness. (1 John 1:6-10) Some that I have met along the way will not admit that they make mistakes (Perhaps their pride gets in the way).

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Jesus gave us his own commandments which are written according to the spirit of the OT Law, and on our hearts.
To love God and neighbour is fulfilling the Law..
Matt 7
12″In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, ” YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Romans 13:8
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Gal 6
2Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

Jas 2
8If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.

[david]

Quote

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:

It's doubtful that anyone thought Jesus came to destroy the prophets, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, etc.
When Jesus mentioned the law and the prophets, is it not reasonable that he was referring to the how the Jews broke up the Hebrew scriptures (the first 5 books being referred to as the law and the rest being spoken of as the prophets. (I realize there was also the writings, Psalms to Chronicles, but that seems to often be included in “the prophets” for some reason.)

MATTHEW 7:12
““All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.”

MATTHEW 22:40
“On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.””

LUKE 16:16
““The Law and the Prophets were until John. From then on the kingdom of God is being declared as good news, and every sort of person is pressing forward toward it.”

JOHN 1:45
“Philip found Na·thańa·el and said to him: “We have found the one of whom Moses, in the Law, and the Prophets wrote, Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Naźa·reth.””

ROMANS 3:21
“But now apart from law God’s righteousness has been made manifest, as it is borne witness to by the Law and the Prophets;”

“the Law and the Prophets,” in the Bible, seems to be used as a generic term meaning the entire Hebrew Scriptures and not simply the first and second sections of those Scriptures (Mt 5:17; 7:12; 22:40; Lu 16:16). When Paul referred to “the Law,” he quoted from Isaiah.—1Co 14:21; Isa 28:11.

The phrase “the law and the prophets” does not seem to indicate the Mosaic Law. I believe it is referring to the whole of the Hebrew scriptures.

[david]

“Another Jewish term for the Jewish Bible/Old Testament is Tanakh, which is short for Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketubim, or Law, Prophets and Writings, the three major divisions of the Hebrew Bible.”–Wickipedia

“In the Gospels, Jesus refers to two parts of the TaNaKh by name — the Law and the Prophets. In one verse, Jesus also mentions the Psalms, in conjunction with the Law and the Prophets. The Psalms are included the third part of TaNaKh, the Writings. The Writings were the last group of books to be accepted but clearly the Psalms were authoritative by the time of Jesus.”–http://gbgm-umc.org/UMW/bible/lawproph.stm

We do understand that the phrase: “law and the prophets” refers to the Hebrew scriptures (old testament) don't we?

[david]

“(1) the Torah or Law, the five books of the Pentateuch, i.e., Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy; (2) the Prophets, consisting of Joshua, Judges, First and Second Samuel, First and Second Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve (or Minor) Prophets; (3) the Writings (Hagiographa), a heterogeneous group to which belong (a) Psalms, Proverbs, and Job, (b) the Scrolls (Megillot), consisting of the Song of Solomon (Song of Songs), Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, and Esther, and  Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, and First and Second Chronicles.”
–The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18
You say
“Question: Are all men capable of sinning?”
Yes

Given that 'sin' is defined as trangression of YHWH's Law (1 John 3:4), on what grounds could YHWH hold guilty men accountable for sin if there was no frame of reference for sin (i.e. the law)?

Sin was always sin but conscience ruled till the law defined it as such.
God does not need a law to work by and men too can live according to righteousness in God's eyes without knowledge of the Law.

Rom 2
” 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) “

“Or to put it more succinctly, how could sin be imputed to an unrighteous man not under that law?”

Conscience thus rules without Law.
Sin is not always imputed.

Ps 32
” 1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.”

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2007,09:02)

God does not need a law to work by and men too can live according to righteousness in God's eyes without knowledge of the Law.

This wasn't true 3,000 years ago.
There were over 600 laws. Any one of which, if broken,
would leave you unrighteous in God's eyes.

Tim

[kenrch]

Question: What did Jesus mean in Matt. 5:17-19?

Where did Jesus do away with any of the Ten commandments?

What commandments was Jesus talking about when He said “if you love Me keep my commandments” John 14:15.

1Jo 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

What law did Paul keep?

**1Co 9:21  To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.**

“NOT without law to God [the Ten Commandment law of God] but under the law to Christ”. Under the law of Christ.  The law that Jesus is the messiah and fulfilled the ritual sacrifical law Luke 24:44.  Isn't Paul speaking of two sets of law?  One he says he is NOT without, *proving that Paul kept the ten commandment Law of God. And the other set fall under the law of Jesus being fulfilled.*

What is so hard to understand?  Isn't the scripture plain?  Isn't it simple?

My favorite because it shows that the remnant of the true church keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Explain Rev. 12:17 away.  There is only one thing anyone can try to say and that is He is speaking of Jews.
Jesus said the Sabbath was made for MAN not just Jews.

Mar 2:27  And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

We are ONE in Christ they are no Jews or just Gentiles we are ONE in Jesus.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Rom 11:16  And if the firstfruit is holy, so is the lump: and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17  But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree;

SabbathSunday:  

Sabbath is the seventh day of the Creation week.
(Genesis 2:2).
Sunday is the first day of the week
(Matthew 28:1).  

Sunday is a man-made day of rest.
“Constantine the Great made a law for the whole empire (A.D. 321) that Sunday should be kept as a day of rest”
(Encyclopedia Americana, article “Sabbath”).  
“Elohim blessed the seventh day and sanctified it”
(Genesis 2:3).
Sunday is a working day, a secular day
(Exodus 20:9).

“You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify”
(Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, page 111).  
“Yahweh blessed the sabbath-day and hallowed it”
(Exodus 20:11).
He called it “my holy day”
(Isaiah 58:13).
Sunday is not a holy day.
“The Catholic Church of its own infallible authority created Sunday a holy day to take the place of the Sabbath.”
(Kansas City Catholic, February 9, 1893).  
“The seventh day is the sabbath of Yahweh, thy Elohim”
(Exodus 20:10).  Sunday was originally kept in honor of the sun god. “Let all judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades rest on the venerable day of the Sun”
(Constantine's Law).  
Sabbath was instituted by Yahweh in the beginning of Creation (Genesis 2:3).
The first Sunday law was passed by Emperor Constantine on March 7, A.D. 321.  

***Sabbath stands as a memorial of the great creation work of the first week of time and pays homage to the Creator.
(Exodus 20:11). “The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church”***
(Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, by Mgr. Segur, page 213).  
**Observing Sunday as the day of worship, acknowledges papal authority instead of the authority of Yahweh.**  
**”The Son of Man [Messiah] is Master also of the Sabbath”
(Mark 2:28). Sunday observance indicates the authority of the pope, who thought “to change times and laws”
and “who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called Elohim . . . so that he as the Almighty sitteth in the temple of Yahweh showing himself that he is the Mighty One”
(Daniel 7:25, KJV; II Thessalonians 2:3-4).  

Sunday is a Catholic institution and so the Roman Church and Protestants claim it as their own day of worship.

As I said I could say you should not murder or any of the other nine Commandments.  But when it comes to the forth MAN LOOK OUT!  WHY? The forth, is a commandment of GOD Just as all the other nine are. When you keep the Sabbath you are saying that God is creator and YOUR GOD.  What does Sunday say?  That you are following the Pope and her daughter's.  Sunday the first day of the week (their are no names for the other six days in the bible) is a Catholic doctrine just ask any Catholic priest.

Can you say you don't have to keep the other nine?  Remember to keep the Sabbath day Holy unto the LORD.  Where does it say anywhere to keep the first day holy?

You can only claim ignorance so long.  The Sabbath is a blessing not a burden as Satan would have you believe.

Trangression of the law is sin.  Are they only nine laws.  The first four commandments show that you love God.  The Sabbath is the forth Commandment.  The last six commandments show love for your brother.  Where is this wrong?

1Jo 3:4  Every one that doeth sin doeth also lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

How important is keeping the law?

Mat 7:20  Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Mat 7:21  “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22  On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23  And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, *you workers of lawlessness.**

Which law is Jesus (your saviour) speaking of ?  He is certainly not speaking of the law that HE fulfilled! Luke 24:44

I thank Jesus that I have forgiveness when I slip and fall (miss the mark). l certainly would not deliberately break any of the Commandments.  Would you?

[NickHassan]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 25 2007,11:39)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2007,09:02) God does not need a law to work by and men too can live according to righteousness in God's eyes without knowledge of the Law. This wasn't true 3,000 years ago. There were over 600 laws. Any one of which, if broken, would leave you unrighteous in God's eyes. Tim

Hi Tim,
There was no written law from Adam to Moses.
I will bring up the threads that are relevant.

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2007,18:09)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 25 2007,11:39) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2007,09:02) God does not need a law to work by and men too can live according to righteousness in God's eyes without knowledge of the Law. This wasn't true 3,000 years ago. There were over 600 laws. Any one of which, if broken, would leave you unrighteous in God's eyes. Tim Hi Tim, There was no written law from Adam to Moses. I will bring up the threads that are relevant.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
Do you know the Law of Love?
Do you recognise it is the image of the 10 commandments?
Do you fulfill the letter of the Old Law or the Spiritual Law of Christ?
How do you fulfill sabbath demands?
Jesus was asked about the law and conspicuously did not mention the sabbath.

Why?

Because he is Lord of the Sabbath.
We rest in him in God spiritually daily.
So would you accuse us of sin?

[Phoenix]

Hi Nick

Jesus also said he didnt come here to abolish the laws.
So in answer to your question to Ken

Quote

So would you accuse us of sin?

Yes. You broke one law… you break them all

Hugs
Phoenix

[NickHassan]

Hi P,
So what do you do on Saturday that distinguishes it from other days?

[Author]

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