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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2007,17:40) Quote (Faith First @ Mar. 02 2007,10:54) Nick Hassen Quote Hi FF,
Are there now any justified doers of the OT Law?Nick. Have a look at your own quote from Romans 2:13. It is from the New Testament!
Quote 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. The law mentioned here is the Ten Commandment Law with the love principal at its heart. They are still relevant to the New Covenant Christian today. See the following.
All Ten Commandments Still In Effect In The New Covenant After The Cross
1. 1Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
See also 1 Cor 6:9, Acts 17:16&23,
Romans 2:22&23, 1John 5:212. Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought
not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone,
graven by art and man's device. See also 1 Cor 12:23. James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by
heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath…..
lest ye fall into condemnation.4. Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and
rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Hebrews 4 4&9 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this
wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
There remaineth therefore a (keeping of a sabbath-see margin) rest
to the people of God.
Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three
sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Acts 13:42&44 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the
next sabbath. And the next sabbath day came almost the
whole city together to hear the word of God.
Isaiha 66:22-23 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will
make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your
seed and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to
another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to
worship before me, saith the LORD.
See also Acts 16:135. Ephesians 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour
thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
See also Romans 1:306. James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill.
Romans 13:9 Thou shalt not kill,…
See also Romans1:297. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye
should abstain from fornication:
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill.
See also 1Cor 6:9, Romans 2:22, Romans 1:29, Romans 13:98. Romans 13:9 Thou shalt not steal…
1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no [man] go beyond and defraud his brother in [any] matter:
See also 1Cor 6:109. Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another
Romans 13:9 Thou shalt not bear false witness10. Romans 13:9 Thou shalt not covet;
See also 1 Cor 6:10, Romans 1:29What says the Bible, the blessed Bible
This my only question be.
The teachings of men so often mislead us
What says the Bible to me?
Hi FF,
Of course we are reminded of the OT Law as we attempt to walk in the Spirit because we are accustomed to sin and unaccustomed to righteousness. We are under the discipline of God and are being trained and our weak arms and legs need to become strengthened.But we no longer aim at righteousness through the OT Law for to do so is to cut ourselves off from the life that comes through faith in Christ.
Heb 12
“8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.9Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
10For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.
11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
12Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble,
13and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.”
Galatians 5
Walk by the Spirit“1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcisio
n, Christ will be of no benefit to you.3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.
9A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.
10I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
12I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.
9A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.
10I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
12I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.”
So we must not interfere with and try and manage that work of God in us but rather cooperarate. Salvation is of GRACE not works
Simply put if you walk according to the spirit you will keep the commandments.Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
When ever I come accross a debate about the law or the commandments, I without doubt find those with legalistic Western outlooks on the subject. They seem to miss the sweetness, tenderness and fatherly aspects of a God who calls us His children.
Perhaps we could benifit from understanding the “law” (torah). We of the Western cultures see law as a set of rules to follow lest we recieve punishment. Our cultures and even out governments teach us that if a law is broken, you are punished. With this outlook ther is no room for teaching. The Hebrew/biblical Torah was wisdom passed on from father to son. If a son with good intentions and heart would attempt to follow the father’s widom and yet failed he would be commended for his effort, and taught how to do better the next time. Only when a child was defiant and rebelious would punishment occur.
We also often see sin from a legal standpoint. If you ask most about sin, they will say it is an act evil or at least a breaking of the law. The biblical definition of sin is missing the mark. It carries the picture of an archer who misses the point he was aiming at. This is not necessarily an act of evil. For this purpose Jesus paid the price for us missing the mark. This was done so that the imature could learn from those mistakes and do better the next time. It is true that we may suffer consequinces from missing the mark, but these are not necessarily punishments from God. Unfortunately many will point at some misfortune that befalls a person and claim that God got them for their sin. First of all how dare they make that asumption and secondly what a bad characterization of God. We certainly do not need to suffer condemnation from our brethren.
God is not waiting with a hammer to smash us at the first sign of failing one of His commandments. In fact the very concept of commandment is not what most in Western cultures understand.
Command (mitsvah)
The word command, as well as commandment, is used to translate the Hebrew word mits'vah but does not properly convey the meaning of mits'vah. The word command implies words of force or power as a General commands his troops. The word mits'vah is better understood as a directive. To see the picture painted by this word it is helpful to look at a related word, tsiyon meaning a desert or a landmark. The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people who traveled the deserts in search of green pastures for their flocks. A nomad uses the various rivers, mountains, rock outcroppings, etc as landmarks to give them their direction. The verb form of mits'vah is tsavah meaning to direct one on a journey. The mits'vah of the Bible are not commands, or rules and regulations, they are directives or landmarks that we look for to guide us. The word tsiyon meaning landmark is also the word translated as Zion, the mountain of God but, not just a mountain, it is the landmark.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_command.htmlWhen God gave the Ten Commandments, they were not,given as merely rules to follow “OR ELSE”. The Hebrews had just come out of generations of slavery with no laws to govern their own society. God gave moses some very simple bits of wisdom to avoid anarchy and to insure the suvival of God’s people.
Can we still see the wisdom in God’s directives? Here you have a new society, basically building the concepts by which they will live. God says, I am your God. I will take care of you. Do not go seeking your wellbeing with another God. Common sense wisdom.
Don’t murder. Makes sense in a society.
Don’t live in envy of everyone else. This will lead to discontent and possibly sin to obtain those things.
Don’t commit adultry. Don’t break up families and cause hate between yourselves. Don’t hurt eachother in that way.
Simple wisdom to guide a society. These should not be a burden of overlording laws. These should be points of wisdom for us to learn the character He desires to see in us.So we have a directive from God to learn His wisdom and thereby move toward Zion. To see the landmarks along the way and follow them to our final destination.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2007,18:25) yes
Thank you Nick.But does that include the forth commandment?
Quote (music4two @ Mar. 02 2007,18:46) When ever I come accross a debate about the law or the commandments, I without doubt find those with legalistic Western outlooks on the subject. They seem to miss the sweetness, tenderness and fatherly aspects of a God who calls us His children. Perhaps we could benifit from understanding the “law” (torah). We of the Western cultures see law as a set of rules to follow lest we recieve punishment. Our cultures and even out governments teach us that if a law is broken, you are punished. With this outlook ther is no room for teaching. The Hebrew/biblical Torah was wisdom passed on from father to son. If a son with good intentions and heart would attempt to follow the father’s widom and yet failed he would be commended for his effort, and taught how to do better the next time. Only when a child was defiant and rebelious would punishment occur.
We also often see sin from a legal standpoint. If you ask most about sin, they will say it is an act evil or at least a breaking of the law. The biblical definition of sin is missing the mark. It carries the picture of an archer who misses the point he was aiming at. This is not necessarily an act of evil. For this purpose Jesus paid the price for us missing the mark. This was done so that the imature could learn from those mistakes and do better the next time. It is true that we may suffer consequinces from missing the mark, but these are not necessarily punishments from God. Unfortunately many will point at some misfortune that befalls a person and claim that God got them for their sin. First of all how dare they make that asumption and secondly what a bad characterization of God. We certainly do not need to suffer condemnation from our brethren.
God is not waiting with a hammer to smash us at the first sign of failing one of His commandments. In fact the very concept of commandment is not what most in Western cultures understand.
Command (mitsvah)
The word command, as well as commandment, is used to translate the Hebrew word mits'vah but does not properly convey the meaning of mits'vah. The word command implies words of force or power as a General commands his troops. The word mits'vah is better understood as a directive. To see the picture painted by this word it is helpful to look at a related word, tsiyon meaning a desert or a landmark. The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people who traveled the deserts in search of green pastures for their flocks. A nomad uses the various rivers, mountains, rock outcroppings, etc as landmarks to give them their direction. The verb form of mits'vah is tsavah meaning to direct one on a journey. The mits'vah of the Bible are not commands, or rules and regulations, they are directives or landmarks that we look for to guide us. The word tsiyon meaning landmark is also the word translated as Zion, the mountain of God but, not just a mountain, it is the landmark.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_command.htmlWhen God gave the Ten Commandments, they were not,given as merely rules to follow “OR ELSE”. The Hebrews had just come out of generations of slavery with no laws to govern their own society. God gave moses some very simple bits of wisdom to avoid anarchy and to insure the suvival of God’s people.
Can we still see the wisdom in God’s directives? Here you have a new society, basically building the concepts by which they will live. God says, I am your God. I will take care of you. Do not go seeking your wellbeing with another God. Common sense wisdom.
Don’t murder. Makes sense in a society.
Don’t live in envy of everyone else. This will lead to discontent and possibly sin to obtain those things.
Don’t commit adultry. Don’t break up families and cause hate between yourselves. Don’t hurt eachother in that way.
Simple wisdom to guide a society. These should not be a burden of overlording laws. These should be points of wisdom for us to learn the character He desires to see in us.So we have a directive from God to learn His wisdom and thereby move toward Zion. To see the landmarks along the way and follow them to our final destination.
Maybe you don't understand or maybe (although I said it many times) didn't make it clear. I need scripture not what this guy and that guy said. You don't think Satan has scholars.2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 02 2007,19:03) Maybe you don't understand or maybe (although I said it many times) didn't make it clear. I need scripture not what this guy and that guy said. You don't think Satan has scholars. 2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
I am giving you scripture. Do you think Paul or Mark or John wrote in English? If you want to understand scripture you have to understand it in it's original language. Do you know what the original meaning of the Hebrew or Greek words you quote mean?If you are going to quote English translations of scripture, I can ask if those translatiors were of God or if they are Satan's scholars? With that concept I can discount every single scripture you post by discounting those translators.
Are you a Hebrew ot Greek scholar? If not how do you know the translation you use was not done by Satan's scholars. If you do not like the scholarship of the people I have quoted, then I invite you to research and post your own experts. I give you the opinion of men who have studied the original languages of scripture for decades and you give me your opinion. Whom should I choose.
If you seek to fall back on the leading of the Spirit to discern the meanings, then I can do the same. We are at an impass again. What proof do you have that me or my scholars are not being led by the Spirit in a much better and more reliable way then you are being led? How many decades of ministry, study, wisdom, fruitfullness and walking with God are behind your opinions. Do not missunderstand me. I am not degrading you in anyway. I do see the quality in you. I do also see that perhaps you should consider that not all men are Satan's scholars. I offered an alternative possibility based on the scholarship of a man I have thoroughly researched. At the very least you should be open enough to consider his scholarship and knowledge to be supperior to yours. Only a closed mind rejects, without research, all opinions that are diferent then theirs. In most cases you have to at least look at the info before the Lord can lead you to truth. This is without considering whether you are accurate in your discerning the leading correctly.
If you are unwilling to accept any knowledge other then what you already have decided is true then you are on a dangerous path my friend.Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 02 2007,18:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2007,18:25) yes
Thank you Nick.But does that include the forth commandment?
Hi kenrch,
Yes, in the way of freedom God would have us follow it. All days are a sabbath to those who rest in Christ from their own spiritual efforts and go into the temple daily.Quote (music4two @ Mar. 02 2007,19:59) Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 02 2007,19:03) Maybe you don't understand or maybe (although I said it many times) didn't make it clear. I need scripture not what this guy and that guy said. You don't think Satan has scholars. 2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
I am giving you scripture. Do you think Paul or Mark or John wrote in English? If you want to understand scripture you have to understand it in it's original language. Do you know what the original meaning of the Hebrew or Greek words you quote mean?If you are going to quote English translations of scripture, I can ask if those translatiors were of God or if they are Satan's scholars? With that concept I can discount every single scripture you post by discounting those translators.
Are you a Hebrew ot Greek scholar? If not how do you know the translation you use was not done by Satan's scholars. If you do not like the scholarship of the people I have quoted, then I invite you to research and post your own experts. I give you the opinion of men who have studied the original languages of scripture for decades and you give me your opinion. Whom should I choose.
If you seek to fall back on the leading of the Spirit to discern the meanings, then I can do the same. We are at an impass again. What proof do you have that me or my scholars are not being led by the Spirit in a much better and more reliable way then you are being led? How many decades of ministry, study, wisdom, fruitfullness and walking with God are behind your opinions. Do not missunderstand me. I am not degrading you in anyway. I do see the quality in you. I do also see that perhaps you should consider that not all men are Satan's scholars. I offered an alternative possibility based on the scholarship of a man I have thoroughly researched. At the very least you should be open enough to consider his scholarship and knowledge to be supperior to yours. Only a closed mind rejects, without research, all opinions that are diferent then theirs. In most cases you have to at least look at the info before the Lord can lead you to truth. This is without considering whether you are accurate in your discerning the leading correctly.
If you are unwilling to accept any knowledge other then what you already have decided is true then you are on a dangerous path my friend.
I'm sorry did I miss one?Quote (music4two @ Mar. 02 2007,18:46)
When ever I come accross a debate about the law or the commandments, I without doubt find those with legalistic Western outlooks on the subject. They seem to miss the sweetness, tenderness and fatherly aspects of a God who calls us His children.Perhaps we could benifit from understanding the “law” (torah). We of the Western cultures see law as a set of rules to follow lest we recieve punishment. Our cultures and even out governments teach us that if a law is broken, you are punished. With this outlook ther is no room for teaching. The Hebrew/biblical Torah was wisdom passed on from father to son. If a son with good intentions and heart would attempt to follow the father’s widom and yet failed he would be commended for his effort, and taught how to do better the next time. Only when a child was defiant and rebelious would punishment occur.
We also often see sin from a legal standpoint. If you ask most about sin, they will say it is an act evil or at least a breaking of the law. The biblical definition of sin is missing the mark. It carries the picture of an archer who misses the point he was aiming at. This is not necessarily an act of evil. For this purpose Jesus paid the price for us missing the mark. This was done so that the imature could learn from those mistakes and do better the next time. It is true that we may suffer consequinces from missing the mark, but these are not necessarily punishments from God. Unfortunately many will point at some misfortune that befalls a person and claim that God got them for their sin. First of all how dare they make that asumption and secondly what a bad characterization of God. We certainly do not need to suffer condemnation from our brethren.
God is not waiting with a hammer to smash us at the first sign of failing one of His commandments. In fact the very concept of commandment is not what most in Western cultures understand.
Command (mitsvah)
The word command, as well as commandment, is used to translate the Hebrew word mits'vah but does not properly convey the meaning of mits'vah. The word command implies words of force or power as a General commands his troops. The word mits'vah is better understood as a directive. To see the picture painted by this word it is helpful to look at a related word, tsiyon meaning a desert or a landmark. The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people who traveled the deserts in search of green pastures for their flocks. A nomad uses the various rivers, mountains, rock outcroppings, etc as landmarks to give them their direction. The verb form of mits'vah is tsavah meaning to direct one on a journey. The mits'vah of the Bible are not commands, or rules and regulations, they are directives or landmarks that we look for to guide us. The word tsiyon meaning landmark is also the word translated as Zion, the mountain of God but, not just a mountain, it is the landmark.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_command.htmlWhen God gave the Ten Commandments, they were not,given as merely rules to follow “OR ELSE”. The Hebrews had just come out of generations of slavery with no laws to govern their own society. God gave moses some very simple bits of wisdom to avoid anarchy and to insure the suvival of God’s people.
Can we still see the wisdom in God’s directives? Here you have a new society, basically building the concepts by which they will live. God says, I am your God. I will take care of you. Do not go seeking your wellbeing with another God. Common sense wisdom.
Don’t murder. Makes sense in a society.
Don’t live in envy of everyone else. This will lead to discontent and possibly sin to obtain those things.
Don’t commit adultry. Don’t break up families and cause hate between yourselves. Don’t hurt eachother in that way.
Simple wisdom to guide a society. These should not be a burden of overlording laws. These should be points of wisdom for us to learn the character He desires to see in us.So we have a directive from God to learn His wisdom and thereby move toward Zion. To see the landmarks along the way and follow them to our final destination.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2007,20:26) Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 02 2007,18:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2007,18:25) yes
Thank you Nick.But does that include the forth commandment?
Hi kenrch,
Yes, in the way of freedom God would have us follow it. All days are a sabbath to those who rest in Christ from their own spiritual efforts and go into the temple daily.
What does rest in Christ mean?You cannot keep everyday like the Sabbath. It's impossible. If you were then you would never get anything done. Worship the Lord in SPIRIT and TRUTH.
Love the Lord thy God with ALL thy MIND and ALL thy soul.
Yes as I have explained I worship God everyday but I can't worship Him everyday like I do on the Sabbath. The whole day is for Jehovah. Not for work, cleaning, loving, TV, or anything but worshiping and FELLOWSHIPING with God.
What is wrong with giving God a whole day. The one, He said He wanted, the seventh day. NOt the first day. Nor 2-6 either but the seventh day.
If you were to try to keep the Sabbath Holy unto the Lord would that be wrong?
You couldn't if you tried because your flesh will rise up and your mind will begin to drift. We must discipline our minds. You flesh doesn't want to serve God. But after you have subjected your mind to your spirit's will then you will be in for a delight!!!!!
IHL,
kenrch
Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 02 2007,20:49) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2007,20:26) Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 02 2007,18:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2007,18:25) yes
Thank you Nick.But does that include the forth commandment?
Hi kenrch,
Yes, in the way of freedom God would have us follow it. All days are a sabbath to those who rest in Christ from their own spiritual efforts and go into the temple daily.
What does rest in Christ mean?You cannot keep everyday like the Sabbath. It's impossible. If you were then you would never get anything done. Worship the Lord in SPIRIT and TRUTH.
Love the Lord thy God with ALL thy MIND and ALL thy soul.
Yes as I have explained I worship God everyday but I can't worship Him everyday like I do on the Sabbath. The whole day is for Jehovah. Not for work, cleaning, loving, TV, or anything but worshiping and FELLOWSHIPING with God.
What is wrong with giving God a whole day. The one, He said He wanted, the seventh day. NOt the first day. Nor 2-6 either but the seventh day.
If you were to try to keep the Sabbath Holy unto the Lord would that be wrong?
You couldn't if you tried because your flesh will rise up and your mind will begin to drift. We must discipline our minds. You flesh doesn't want to serve God. But after you have subjected your mind to your spirit's will then you will be in for a delight!!!!!
IHL,
kenrch
Hi kenrch,
God uses willing vessels to do the works of Christ and it is not by might nor by power but by the Spirit. We put the lamp on the hill but the light is Christ within us and not of ourselves.We are not focussed just on avoiding sin or on doing works of our righteousness but are available when the wind of the Spirit comes and the light burden of the opportunities he gives arises.
Anything we do in our own strength can have some uses for God but we can do all things through Him who strengthens us, in His perfect season.
Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 02 2007,20:27) Quote (music4two @ Mar. 02 2007,19:59) Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 02 2007,19:03) Maybe you don't understand or maybe (although I said it many times) didn't make it clear. I need scripture not what this guy and that guy said. You don't think Satan has scholars. 2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
I am giving you scripture. Do you think Paul or Mark or John wrote in English? If you want to understand scripture you have to understand it in it's original language. Do you know what the original meaning of the Hebrew or Greek words you quote mean?If you are going to quote English translations of scripture, I can ask if those translatiors were of God or if they are Satan's scholars? With that concept I can discount every single scripture you post by discounting those translators.
Are you a Hebrew ot Greek scholar? If not how do you know the translation you use was not done by Satan's scholars. If you do not like the scholarship of the people I have quoted, then I invite you to research and post your own experts. I give you the opinion of men who have studied the original languages of scripture for decades and you give me your opinion. Whom should I choose.
If you seek to fall back on the leading of the Spirit to discern the meanings, then I can do the same. We are at an impass again. What proof do you have that me or my scholars are not being led by the Spirit in a much better and more reliable way then you are being led? How many decades of ministry, study, wisdom, fruitfullness and walking with God are behind your opinions. Do not missunderstand me. I am not degrading you in anyway. I do see the quality in you. I do also see that perhaps you should consider that not all men are Satan's scholars. I offered an alternative possibility based on the scholarship of a man I have thoroughly researched. At the very least you should be open enough to consider his scholarship and knowledge to be supperior to yours. Only a closed mind rejects, without research, all opinions that are diferent then theirs. In most cases you have to at least look at the info before the Lord can lead you to truth. This is without considering whether you are accurate in your discerning the leading correctly.
If you are unwilling to accept any knowledge other then what you already have decided is true then you are on a dangerous path my friend.
I'm sorry did I miss one?Quote (music4two @ Mar. 02 2007,18:46)
When ever I come accross a debate about the law or the commandments, I without doubt find those with legalistic Western outlooks on the subject. They seem to miss the sweetness, tenderness and fatherly aspects of a God who calls us His children.Perhaps we could benifit from understanding the “law” (torah). We of the Western cultures see law as a set of rules to follow lest we recieve punishment. Our cultures and even out governments teach us that if a law is broken, you are punished. With this outlook ther is no room for teaching. The Hebrew/biblical Torah was wisdom passed on from father to son. If a son with good intentions and heart would attempt to follow the father’s widom and yet failed he would be commended for his effort, and taught how to do better the next time. Only when a child was defiant and rebelious would punishment occur.
We also often see sin from a legal standpoint. If you ask most about sin, they will say it is an act evil or at least a breaking of the law. The biblical definition of sin is missing the mark. It carries the picture of an archer who misses the point he was aiming at. This is not necessarily an act of evil. For this purpose Jesus paid the price for us missing the mark. This was done so that the imature could learn from those mistakes and do better the next time. It is true that we may suffer consequinces from missing the mark, but these are not necessarily punishments from God. Unfortunately many will point at some misfortune that befalls a person and claim that God got them for their sin. First of all how dare they make that asumption and secondly what a bad characterization of God. We certainly do not need to suffer condemnation from our brethren.
God is not waiting with a hammer to smash us at the first sign of failing one of His commandments. In fact the very concept of commandment is not what most in Western cultures understand.
Command (mitsvah)
The word command, as well as commandment, is used to translate the Hebrew word mits'vah but does not properly convey the meaning of mits'vah. The word command implies words of force or power as a General commands his troops. The word mits'vah is better understood as a directive. To see the picture painted by this word it is helpful to look at a related word, tsiyon meaning a desert or a landmark. The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people who traveled the deserts in search of green pastures for their flocks. A nomad uses the various rivers, mountains, rock outcroppings, etc as landmarks to give them their direction. The verb form of mits'vah is tsavah meaning to direct one on a journey. The mits'vah of the Bible are not commands, or rules and regulations, they are directives or landmarks that we look for to guide us. The word tsiyon meaning landmark is also the word translated as Zion, the mountain of God but, not just a mountain, it is the landmark.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_command.htmlWhen God gave the Ten Commandments, they were not,given as merely rules to follow “OR ELSE”. The Hebrews had just come out of generations of slavery with no laws to govern their own society. God gave moses some very simple bits of wisdom to avoid anarchy and to insure the suvival of God’s people.
Can we still see the wisdom in God’s directives? Here you have a new society, basically building the concepts by which they will live. God says, I am your God. I will take care of you. Do not go seeking your wellbeing with another God. Common sense wisdom.
Don’t murder. Makes sense in a society.
Don’t live in envy of everyone else. This will lead to discontent and possibly sin to obtain those things.
Don’t commit adultry. Don’t break up families and cause hate between yourselves. Don’t hurt eachother in that way.
Simple wisdom to guide a society. These should not be a burden of overlording laws. These should be points of wisdom for us to learn the character He desires to see in us.So we have a directive from God to learn His wisdom and thereby move toward Zion. To see the landmarks along the way and follow them to our final destination.
Exodus 24:12 (New American Standard Bible)Now the LORD said to Moses, “Come up to Me on the mountain and remain there, and I will give you the stone tablets with the law and the commandment which I have written for their instruction.”
Now you tell me what God mean
s by the words Commandment and law.
How about the words “holy”. “Saboth”You can throw out scripture all day long but if you do not know the meaning of the words what is the point?
I gave you meanings of the words law and commandment.Do I need to retranslate every scripture for you?
Now the LORD said to Moses, “Come up to Me on the mountain and remain there, and I will give you the stone tablets with the wisdom from your father and the directions toward Zion which I have written for their instruction.”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2007,20:55) Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 02 2007,20:49) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2007,20:26) Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 02 2007,18:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2007,18:25) yes
Thank you Nick.But does that include the forth commandment?
Hi kenrch,
Yes, in the way of freedom God would have us follow it. All days are a sabbath to those who rest in Christ from their own spiritual efforts and go into the temple daily.
What does rest in Christ mean?You cannot keep everyday like the Sabbath. It's impossible. If you were then you would never get anything done. Worship the Lord in SPIRIT and TRUTH.
Love the Lord thy God with ALL thy MIND and ALL thy soul.
Yes as I have explained I worship God everyday but I can't worship Him everyday like I do on the Sabbath. The whole day is for Jehovah. Not for work, cleaning, loving, TV, or anything but worshiping and FELLOWSHIPING with God.
What is wrong with giving God a whole day. The one, He said He wanted, the seventh day. NOt the first day. Nor 2-6 either but the seventh day.
If you were to try to keep the Sabbath Holy unto the Lord would that be wrong?
You couldn't if you tried because your flesh will rise up and your mind will begin to drift. We must discipline our minds. You flesh doesn't want to serve God. But after you have subjected your mind to your spirit's will then you will be in for a delight!!!!!
IHL,
kenrch
Hi kenrch,
God uses willing vessels to do the works of Christ and it is not by might nor by power but by the Spirit. We put the lamp on the hill but the light is Christ within us and not of ourselves.We are not focussed just on avoiding sin or on doing works of our righteousness but are available when the wind of the Spirit comes and the light burden of the opportunities he gives arises.
Anything we do in our own strength can have some uses for God but we can do all things through Him who strengthens us, in His perfect season.
Ok Nick then don't keep the Sabbath day. Keep to your traditions Mark 7:7-8Quote (music4two @ Mar. 02 2007,21:00) Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 02 2007,20:27) Quote (music4two @ Mar. 02 2007,19:59) Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 02 2007,19:03) Maybe you don't understand or maybe (although I said it many times) didn't make it clear. I need scripture not what this guy and that guy said. You don't think Satan has scholars. 2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
I am giving you scripture. Do you think Paul or Mark or John wrote in English? If you want to understand scripture you have to understand it in it's original language. Do you know what the original meaning of the Hebrew or Greek words you quote mean?If you are going to quote English translations of scripture, I can ask if those translatiors were of God or if they are Satan's scholars? With that concept I can discount every single scripture you post by discounting those translators.
Are you a Hebrew ot Greek scholar? If not how do you know the translation you use was not done by Satan's scholars. If you do not like the scholarship of the people I have quoted, then I invite you to research and post your own experts. I give you the opinion of men who have studied the original languages of scripture for decades and you give me your opinion. Whom should I choose.
If you seek to fall back on the leading of the Spirit to discern the meanings, then I can do the same. We are at an impass again. What proof do you have that me or my scholars are not being led by the Spirit in a much better and more reliable way then you are being led? How many decades of ministry, study, wisdom, fruitfullness and walking with God are behind your opinions. Do not missunderstand me. I am not degrading you in anyway. I do see the quality in you. I do also see that perhaps you should consider that not all men are Satan's scholars. I offered an alternative possibility based on the scholarship of a man I have thoroughly researched. At the very least you should be open enough to consider his scholarship and knowledge to be supperior to yours. Only a closed mind rejects, without research, all opinions that are diferent then theirs. In most cases you have to at least look at the info before the Lord can lead you to truth. This is without considering whether you are accurate in your discerning the leading correctly.
If you are unwilling to accept any knowledge other then what you already have decided is true then you are on a dangerous path my friend.
I'm sorry did I miss one?Quote (music4two @ Mar. 02 2007,18:46)
When ever I come accross a debate about the law or the commandments, I without doubt find those with legalistic Western outlooks on the subject. They seem to miss the sweetness, tenderness and fatherly aspects of a God who calls us His children.Perhaps we could benifit from understanding the “law” (torah). We of the Western cultures see law as a set of rules to follow lest we recieve punishment. Our cultures and even out governments teach us that if a law is broken, you are punished. With this outlook ther is no room for teaching. The Hebrew/biblical Torah was wisdom passed on from father to son. If a son with good intentions and heart would attempt to follow the father’s widom and yet failed he would be commended for his effort, and taught how to do better the next time. Only when a child was defiant and rebelious would punishment occur.
We also often see sin from a legal standpoint. If you ask most about sin, they will say it is an act evil or at least a breaking of the law. The biblical definition of sin is missing the mark. It carries the picture of an archer who misses the point he was aiming at. This is not necessarily an act of evil. For this purpose Jesus paid the price for us missing the mark. This was done so that the imature could learn from those mistakes and do better the next time. It is true that we may suffer consequinces from missing the mark, but these are not necessarily punishments from God. Unfortunately many will point at some misfortune that befalls a person and claim that God got them for their sin. First of all how dare they make that asumption and secondly what a bad characterization of God. We certainly do not need to suffer condemnation from our brethren.
God is not waiting with a hammer to smash us at the first sign of failing one of His commandments. In fact the very concept of commandment is not what most in Western cultures understand.
Command (mitsvah)
The word command, as well as commandment, is used to translate the Hebrew word mits'vah but does not properly convey the meaning of mits'vah. The word command implies words of force or power as a General commands his troops. The word mits'vah is better understood as a directive. To see the picture painted by this word it is helpful to look at a related word, tsiyon meaning a desert or a landmark. The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people who traveled the deserts in search of green pastures for their flocks. A nomad uses the various rivers, mountains, rock outcroppings, etc as landmarks to give them their direction. The verb form of mits'vah is tsavah meaning to direct one on a journey. The mits'vah of the Bible are not commands, or rules and regulations, they are directives or landmarks that we look for to guide us. The word tsiyon meaning landmark is also the word translated as Zion, the mountain of God but, not just a mountain, it is the landmark.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_command.htmlWhen God gave the Ten Commandments, they were not,given as merely rules to follow “OR ELSE”. The Hebrews had just come out of generations of slavery with no laws to govern their own society. God gave moses some very simple bits of wisdom to avoid anarchy and to insure the suvival of God’s people.
Can we still see the wisdom in God’s directives? Here you have a new society, basically building the concepts by which they will live. God says, I am your God. I will take care of you. Do not go seeking your wellbeing with another God. Common sense wisdom.
Don’t murder. Makes sense in a society.
Don’t live in envy of everyone else. This will lead to discontent and possibly sin to obtain those things.
Don’t commit adultry. Don’t break up families and cause hate between yourselves. Don’t hurt eachother in that way.
Simple wisdom to guide a society. These should not be a burden of overlording laws. These should be points of wisdom for us to learn the character He desires to see in us.So we have a directive from God to learn His wisdom and thereby move toward Zion. To see the landmarks along the way and follow them to our final destination.
Exodus 24:12 (New American Standard Bible)Now the LORD said to Moses, “Come u
p to Me on the mountain and remain there, and I will give you the stone tablets with the law and the commandment which I have written for their instruction.”Now you tell me what God means by the words Commandment and law.
How about the words “holy”. “Saboth”You can throw out scripture all day long but if you do not know the meaning of the words what is the point?
I gave you meanings of the words law and commandment.Do I need to retranslate every scripture for you?
Now the LORD said to Moses, “Come up to Me on the mountain and remain there, and I will give you the stone tablets with the wisdom from your father and the directions toward Zion which I have written for their instruction.”
And what does that change?Quote (music4two @ Mar. 02 2007,18:46) When ever I come accross a debate about the law or the commandments, I without doubt find those with legalistic Western outlooks on the subject. They seem to miss the sweetness, tenderness and fatherly aspects of a God who calls us His children. Perhaps we could benifit from understanding the “law” (torah). We of the Western cultures see law as a set of rules to follow lest we recieve punishment. Our cultures and even out governments teach us that if a law is broken, you are punished. With this outlook ther is no room for teaching. The Hebrew/biblical Torah was wisdom passed on from father to son. If a son with good intentions and heart would attempt to follow the father’s widom and yet failed he would be commended for his effort, and taught how to do better the next time. Only when a child was defiant and rebelious would punishment occur.
We also often see sin from a legal standpoint. If you ask most about sin, they will say it is an act evil or at least a breaking of the law. The biblical definition of sin is missing the mark. It carries the picture of an archer who misses the point he was aiming at. This is not necessarily an act of evil. For this purpose Jesus paid the price for us missing the mark. This was done so that the imature could learn from those mistakes and do better the next time. It is true that we may suffer consequinces from missing the mark, but these are not necessarily punishments from God. Unfortunately many will point at some misfortune that befalls a person and claim that God got them for their sin. First of all how dare they make that asumption and secondly what a bad characterization of God. We certainly do not need to suffer condemnation from our brethren.
God is not waiting with a hammer to smash us at the first sign of failing one of His commandments. In fact the very concept of commandment is not what most in Western cultures understand.
Command (mitsvah)
The word command, as well as commandment, is used to translate the Hebrew word mits'vah but does not properly convey the meaning of mits'vah. The word command implies words of force or power as a General commands his troops. The word mits'vah is better understood as a directive. To see the picture painted by this word it is helpful to look at a related word, tsiyon meaning a desert or a landmark. The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people who traveled the deserts in search of green pastures for their flocks. A nomad uses the various rivers, mountains, rock outcroppings, etc as landmarks to give them their direction. The verb form of mits'vah is tsavah meaning to direct one on a journey. The mits'vah of the Bible are not commands, or rules and regulations, they are directives or landmarks that we look for to guide us. The word tsiyon meaning landmark is also the word translated as Zion, the mountain of God but, not just a mountain, it is the landmark.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_command.htmlWhen God gave the Ten Commandments, they were not,given as merely rules to follow “OR ELSE”. The Hebrews had just come out of generations of slavery with no laws to govern their own society. God gave moses some very simple bits of wisdom to avoid anarchy and to insure the suvival of God’s people.
Can we still see the wisdom in God’s directives? Here you have a new society, basically building the concepts by which they will live. God says, I am your God. I will take care of you. Do not go seeking your wellbeing with another God. Common sense wisdom.
Don’t murder. Makes sense in a society.
Don’t live in envy of everyone else. This will lead to discontent and possibly sin to obtain those things.
Don’t commit adultry. Don’t break up families and cause hate between yourselves. Don’t hurt eachother in that way.
Simple wisdom to guide a society. These should not be a burden of overlording laws. These should be points of wisdom for us to learn the character He desires to see in us.So we have a directive from God to learn His wisdom and thereby move toward Zion. To see the landmarks along the way and follow them to our final destination.
Hi music4two,
I like your definition of commandments, as pertains to the law, beind directives or guidelines.
However, whenever anybody broke any of these directives, their punishment was usually death. That kind of makes them again look a lot like pretty stern commandments.I could give you many scriptures where the result of breaking one of these commandments or another resulted in thousands of people being put to death. But I am sure that you already know these scriptures.
Again, I like the way you interpret the Hebrew meaning of these words. I have gone to the ancient Hebrew site that you posted myself, and I am attempting to study in a new light. But regardless of what we call them, the commandments, the results of dissobeying them remains the same.
Tim
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2007,21:04) Hi kenrch, hmmm.
Good cowboys do not always shoot from the hip but identify the target first.
My target is to get as close to God as I canHi Nick:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Are you a Jew or a gentile?Since I God has circumsized my heart, it would make me a spiritual jew.
God Bless
This is a paraphrase of many sources I have studied so I do not lay claim to all the concepts or words.
“There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD. (Leviticus 23:3)
Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (Ex 20:8-11)
From the above verses 5 things are clear components of the Sabbath
1.It is a day of rest from work for people and animals.
2.It will be on the 7th day of the week.
3.The day is to be kept holy.
4.The day is blessed by God.
5.It is a commemoration of creation.
The word “Sabbath”, “shabbat” means “to cease from work or activity”. The Sabbath is a 24 hour day of ceasing from work, a day of rest.
The Sabbath day is to be kept holy. Many try to associate the tern “Holy” with some spiritual context. The Hebrew word translated holy simply means “to be set apart”. In most cases to be set apart for a special purpose. The Sabbath is set apart from all the other days of the week.
The fourth commandment connects the seventh day Sabbath with the seventh day of creation, making the Sabbath a commemoration of creation.
By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. (Genesis 2:2-3)
The word “rested” above, is the Hebrew word “Shabat” the root of “Shabbat/Sabbath”
Of course God does not need rest; he was setting a pattern for the benefit of his creation. Six days are for working but the seventh day is a day of rest, a Sabbath. God recognized that all creation needs a rest. Not only do our bodies need to rest one day out of each week, but also so do the animals. God also commanded to give the land a rest every seven years (Leviticus 25:4). God, who created man, knew that a man's body required one day in seven to rest. This fits perfectly with that which I have posted in the past concerning the way God functions towards His creation. God functions correctly toward His creation by directing them to rest one day per week. Both them and their animals. In fact God even directs them to allow the land to lay fallow (unused) every 7 years to rejuevenate.
The fourth commandment is a commemoration of this day of rest. As I have posted before a commandment is a direction or landmark to guide us toward Zion.
Some say that the use of the term “Remember the Sabbath” also adds some spiritual significance.
God first told Israel to observe the Sabbath at some point prior to Israel's arrival at Mount Sinai and after they crossed the Red Sea as shown in Exodus 16.23.
(Moses) said to them, “This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD.
This could possibly be the reason God used the words “remember the Sabbath”in the 10 commandments. Perhaps after 400 years of captivity the Hebrews forgot the practice.
God does bless this day and those that honor it. The spiritual aspect of the Sabbath is found in the following verse.
“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the LORD , and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.” The mouth of the LORD has spoken. (Isaiah 58:13-14)
“Blessed is the man who does [what is right], the man who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil.” (Isaiah 56:2)
Six days a week we are about our lives working and taking care of our common needs. The seventh is to be set asside to remember that it was the Lord that created us and to honor Him.
Those who keep the Sabbath acknowledge that God is the creator of the universe.
In conclussion, the Sabbath is a decree from God to his people to insure that they are taken care of physically both they and the remainder of His creation. In addition it is a sign and reminder to His people that He created the universe. It is a sign of the creation covenant between God and His creation.
Because God uses the term “Commandment” many add some aspect of Western cultural “law” concept to this statement. Commandment means direction or landmarks to find Zion (heaven).
To put this concept in modern terms;
The LORD says to set asside the seventh day of the week for this special purpose: For you and your animals to rest and recouperate from your labors. This is for your physical wellbeing. For your spiritual wellbeing use this day to commemorate that the LORD your God created the universe and all that is in it. Observing these two things will be a guide and help to you in reaching your eternal home in Zion.Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 02 2007,21:25) Quote (music4two @ Mar. 02 2007,18:46) When ever I come accross a debate about the law or the commandments, I without doubt find those with legalistic Western outlooks on the subject. They seem to miss the sweetness, tenderness and fatherly aspects of a God who calls us His children. Perhaps we could benifit from understanding the “law” (torah). We of the Western cultures see law as a set of rules to follow lest we recieve punishment. Our cultures and even out governments teach us that if a law is broken, you are punished. With this outlook ther is no room for teaching. The Hebrew/biblical Torah was wisdom passed on from father to son. If a son with good intentions and heart would attempt to follow the father’s widom and yet failed he would be commended for his effort, and taught how to do better the next time. Only when a child was defiant and rebelious would punishment occur.
We also often see sin from a legal standpoint. If you ask most about sin, they will say it is an act evil or at least a breaking of the law. The biblical definition of sin is missing the mark. It carries the picture of an archer who misses the point he was aiming at. This is not necessarily an act of evil. For this purpose Jesus paid the price for us missing the mark. This was done so that the imature could learn from those mistakes and do better the next time. It is true that we may suffer consequinces from missing the mark, but these are not necessarily punishments from God. Unfortunately many will point at some misfortune that befalls a person and claim that God got them for their sin. First of all how dare they make that asumption and secondly what a bad characterization of God. We certainly do not need to suffer condemnation from our brethren.
God is not waiting with a hammer to smash us at the first sign of failing one of His commandments. In fact the very concept of commandment is not what most in Western cultures understand.
Command (mitsvah)
The word command, as well as commandment, is used to translate the Hebrew word mits'vah but does not properly convey the meaning of mits'vah. The word command implies words of force or power as a General commands his troops. The word mits'vah is better understood as a directive. To see the picture painted by this word it is helpful to look at a related word, tsiyon meaning a desert or a landmark. The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people who traveled the deserts in search of green pastures for their flocks. A nomad uses the various rivers, mountains, rock outcroppings, etc as landmarks to give them their direction. The verb form of mits'vah is tsavah meaning to direct one on a journey. The mits'vah of the Bible are not commands, or rules and regulations, they are directives or landmarks that we look for to guide us. The word tsiyon meaning landmark is also the word translated as Zion, the mountain of God but, not just a mountain, it is the landmark.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_command.htmlWhen God gave the Ten Commandments, they were not,given as merely rules to follow “OR ELSE”. The Hebrews had just come out of generations of slavery with no laws to govern their own society. God gave moses some very simple bits of wisdom to avoid anarchy and to insure the suvival of God’s people.
Can we still see the wisdom in God’s directives? Here you have a new society, basically building the concepts by which they will live. God says, I am your God. I will take care of you. Do not go seeking your wellbeing with another God. Common sense wisdom.
Don’t murder. Makes sense in a society.
Don’t live in envy of everyone else. This will lead to discontent and possibly sin to obtain those things.
Don’t commit adultry. Don’t break up families and cause hate between yourselves. Don’t hurt eachother in that way.
Simple wisdom to guide a society. These should not be a burden of overlording laws. These should be points of wisdom for us to learn the character He desires to see in us.So we have a directive from God to learn His wisdom and thereby move toward Zion. To see the landmarks along the way and follow them to our final destination.
Hi music4two,
I like your definition of commandments, as pertains to the law, beind directives or guidelines.
However, whenever anybody broke any of these directives, their punishment was usually death. That kind of makes them again look a lot like pretty stern commandments.I could give you many scriptures where the result of breaking one of these commandments or another resulted in thousands of people being put to death. But I am sure that you already know these scriptures.
Again, I like the way you interpret the Hebrew meaning of these words. I have gone to the ancient Hebrew site that you posted myself, and I am attempting to study in a new light. But regardless of what we call them, the commandments, the results of dissobeying them remains the same.
Tim
I agree. If you remember in my discription of the Torah I did say this. “Only when a child was defiant and rebelious would punishment occur.” those who adamantly refuse to follow the diectives from God and place themselves in rebelion agains His word are punished. Even unto death. the problem occurs when some judgemental souls see a person not followeing God's diections they often assume these folks are in rebellion when they might just be immature and still learning how to stay on course. God is very very long suffereing and will not act untill He knows (judging by the heart) that a person has turned away for good. fortunately God is the only one who has the right or ability to judge this matter. (though there are many who would usurp that position)Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 02 2007,21:04) And what does that change?
You know I posted information on here for those who might find interest. You seem to have such anger toward anyone resembling a human teacher that you imediately go to the attack. I brought in the Hebrew meanings of words not to argue with you but to add a richness to the discussion and a beter understanding of the terms under discussion. If you will go back and read you will see that my original post about the Hebrew was not diected toward you in any way, yet you seem to take affront to it because it quotes an outside “human” source. My posts have been under constant attack from you and it's getting really old.
Anyone can quote scriptures and claim a spiritual understanding of them. An honest man will not only listen to his spirit, but will research the matter and read what others have discoverd about the subject before coming to a conclusion. A man that loves the word will want the fullest and most compleat understanding of the words God has spoken.
If you have a problem with human teachers, I suggest it is your problem. If all you want out of life is you, your English bible and God, that's fine. it is unfortunate for you that God designed you to also have man in your life. It is not good that man should be alone, but your constant berating and judgemental attitude toward anyone trying to teach or just give out information, will eventually make you very much alone and I am very sad for you. Remember no one is an island unto himself. God designed every joint to supply and fit together. you are designed to give help but also to recieve it. Believe me. you do not posses all the truth yet. there are others that can teach you much.
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