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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 10 2011,07:27) Terricca……Tell us why Jesus said GOD could “DESTROY” both body and soul (IN) the GRAVE Then. The word Hell there means GRAVE came from the English word Helios (meaning to put in the ground. We simply can not exist without a body for our spirits to exist (IN)> God by simply leaving our bodies in the Grave could destory us, just that simple nothing confusing or complicated about it. The soul the sins Shall Parish, and when a man dies his thoughts “PARISH” and when you Through “PARISH” so do YOU. Man is in a state of “PARISH” when he dies, and will remain that way for ever unless the Lord raises him by creating a new body and adding spirit back into it. Just that simple. Pierre it only get confusing when you start adding all kinds of suppositions to what scripture plainly is saying. There is no existence after a Man's body dies he is gone for ever unless God alone reconstructs a new body and puts spirit back into it. peace and love……………………………………………….gene
Genethe soul is the spirit that God gives to every man,placed in the flesh body they now can act the flesh act to what the soul wants,and on this we will be judged
when the body dies the soul left and return in wait for judgement ,and so there are no longer any action produced on earth his toughts are dead the soul in no longer interact on earth,
and from there the judgement of God will decided if we will live or die(soul)according to what we have done.
Quote Man's body dies he is gone for ever unless God alone reconstructs a new body and puts spirit back into it. you right but the spirit is your soul and resurrected means to be placed in a new body and so ones again be able to serve God,(the soul need a body to be able to act)
if it would not be you what body would you think God would give you ? your old dust?corrupt ?who would remember you fore ever that you where a sinner ?God says I do all thing new,
Pierre
Quote (david @ July 09 2011,13:00) Quote But the “simplest meaning” is what counts and a SOUL is exactly what Genesis says it is , A BODY WITH SPIRIT (IN) IT . This is a living SOUL, nothing more and nothing less.When we begin to add to this then confusion starts to come into the scripture IMO> I agree with Gene that the many definitions are what cause people confusion and they want to simplify things by saying spirit and soul are the same.
To Gene's definiton of soul being a body, I would like to add: a person or animal (that is what a body with spirit is) OR the life of the person or animal.
I agree with the idea there are several definitions for soul.Both those definitions you mention are appropriate for the word soul depending on the context.
Quote (terraricca @ July 09 2011,18:14) Quote (david @ July 10 2011,01:00) Quote But the “simplest meaning” is what counts and a SOUL is exactly what Genesis says it is , A BODY WITH SPIRIT (IN) IT . This is a living SOUL, nothing more and nothing less.When we begin to add to this then confusion starts to come into the scripture IMO> I agree with Gene that the many definitions are what cause people confusion and they want to simplify things by saying spirit and soul are the same.
To Gene's definiton of soul being a body, I would like to add: a person or animal (that is what a body with spirit is) OR the life of the person or animal.
davidGe 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
this is LXX version
there is no word like soul
and because you agree with Gene the rest are in confusion ?Pierre
No, that is an English translation of the Septuagint, which in itself is a Greek translation of the Hebrew.The Hebrew word in Question is Nephesh (or le nefesh).
It means “soul.” The question for the Bible translators is, what does soul mean? “being, person, etc.” And so that is how it is sometimes represented in Bibles.
If you look at the actual Hebrew word that the Greek Septuagint based its translation on, it is Nephesh (soul) isn't it?
The fact that many translate this “being” only gives proof that this is in fact what “soul” means, doesn't it?
Quote (terraricca @ July 09 2011,18:14) Quote (david @ July 10 2011,01:00) Quote But the “simplest meaning” is what counts and a SOUL is exactly what Genesis says it is , A BODY WITH SPIRIT (IN) IT . This is a living SOUL, nothing more and nothing less.When we begin to add to this then confusion starts to come into the scripture IMO> I agree with Gene that the many definitions are what cause people confusion and they want to simplify things by saying spirit and soul are the same.
To Gene's definiton of soul being a body, I would like to add: a person or animal (that is what a body with spirit is) OR the life of the person or animal.
davidGe 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
this is LXX version
there is no word like soul
and because you agree with Gene the rest are in confusion ?Pierre
Pierre,http://ecclesia.org/truth/septuagint-hyperlinked.html
2:7 And God formed the man [of] dust of the earth, and breathed upon his face the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.
Some translations of the septuagint translate it “soul” I guess we should find out what the original word in the septuagint was. But either way, we know the original word in the hebrew from which the septuagint came was Nephesh (soul)
The understanding that the word “soul” can mean the whole person is supported by scriptures.
The Bible speaks of a soul’s doing work. (Leviticus 23:30)
The soul is spoken of as being impatient, irritated, sleepless, fearful, and depressed. (Judges 16:16; Job 19:2; Psalm 119:28; Acts 2:43; 1 Thessalonians 5:14)
Referring to a soul as a person, Romans 13:1 states: “Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities.”
And at 1 Peter 3:20, we read: “In Noah’s days, . . . a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.”
Nothing in these scriptures indicates that the soul is some immaterial entity that lives on after death, or that it is the spirit.
David
you do not understand ,or do you ?and deviate from the argument ?
The Hebrew word נפש (nephesh) is important for the Old Testament (and biblical) doctrine of man. The term appears over 750 times in the OT and is translated in the Authorized Version most frequently as “soul,” “life,” “person,” “creature,” or “-self.” The word is found in all OT genres (narrative, poetry, prophecy, etc.) and may have either a literal or metaphorical sense. A נפש can be living or dead. It can be counted as an individual entity or distinguished from other individual entities. A human being or an animal may be distinguished as a נפש. When predicated of humans, a נפש can think, feel, desire, act, and sin. One commonly finds a plea for the deliverance of one’s נפש from danger or death in the Psalms. Keeping these observations regarding the syntactic and semotactic environment of נפש in view is essential for establishing a proper semantic value for נפש and for developing a proper OT anthropology.
The word נפש is predicated of human beings in primarily two ways. Less commonly, the term refers to the animating principle of a physical entity, that is, “breath” (Gen. 35:19; 1 Kings 17:21; Job 41:13) or the existential quality or state of “life” (Gen. 9:4; 19:17; Lev. 17:11; Deut. 9:23; 1 Sam. 20:1). More commonly, the term refers to a human being as a unified entity. This includes both the immaterial and also the material dimensions of an entity. Most likely, when Moses describes both man (Gen. 2:7) and animal (Gen. 1:20; 2:19) as a “living creature” (נפש חיה) he’s referring to the entire entity, not merely to some immaterial aspect. In the Psalms and Proverbs, a נפש can “wait,” “be afflicted,” “desire,” “despair,” “long for,” “grow weary,” “fear,” “hunger,” “think,” etc., which involve both the physical as well as the spiritual aspects of man (Pss. 33:20; 35:13; 42:1, 6; 84:2; 107:5, 26; Prov. 2:10; 23:2, 7). In Genesis 46:15-22 and Exodus 12:15, 19, the term נפש is used for countable entities, that is, individual persons who may be constituted a group of persons or be distinguished from a group of persons. This accounts for passages that employ נפש as synonymous or in parallel with a personal pronoun. For example, in Numbers 23:10 Balaam the prophet exclaims, “Let me [literally, “my nephesh”] die the death of the upright, and let my end be like his!” (emphasis added) The Psalmist prays, “Oh, guard my soul [נפשי], and deliver me!” (Ps. 25:20a). Isaiah 46:1-2 provides another interesting example in which the antecedents of נפש (plural) are false gods:
Pierre
What about animals? Are they souls? Consider how the Bible describes the creation of animals.
“Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls,” God commanded.
On the next creative day, God said: “Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.” (Genesis 1:20, 24) Therefore, all living creatures—human or animal—are souls.
That is the first and easiest definition of “soul” — either a person or an animal.
It's the second main definition that gets people confused. That second idea is that a soul is the: life of the person or animal.
At Job 33:22, we read: “His soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those inflicting death.” Here, the terms “soul” and “life” are used in parallel, one amplifying the meaning of the other.
“Soul,” then, can also refer to the life that one enjoys as a living soul, or person.
Hence, the Scriptures refer to Moses’ enemies who were seeking to take his life as “all the men who were hunting for [his] soul.” (Exodus 4:19)
And concerning Jesus Christ, the Bible says: “The Son of man came . . . to give his soul [life] a ransom in exchange for many.”—Matthew 20:28.
SO, THOSE ARE THE TWO BASIC SCRIPTURAL USES OF THE WORD SOUL:
1. PERSON OR ANIMAL
2. LIFE OF THE PERSON OR ANIMAL.Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2011,09:07) David you do not understand ,or do you ?and deviate from the argument ?
The Hebrew word נפש (nephesh) is important for the Old Testament (and biblical) doctrine of man. The term appears over 750 times in the OT and is translated in the Authorized Version most frequently as “soul,” “life,” “person,” “creature,” or “-self.” The word is found in all OT genres (narrative, poetry, prophecy, etc.) and may have either a literal or metaphorical sense. A נפש can be living or dead. It can be counted as an individual entity or distinguished from other individual entities. A human being or an animal may be distinguished as a נפש. When predicated of humans, a נפש can think, feel, desire, act, and sin. One commonly finds a plea for the deliverance of one’s נפש from danger or death in the Psalms. Keeping these observations regarding the syntactic and semotactic environment of נפש in view is essential for establishing a proper semantic value for נפש and for developing a proper OT anthropology.
The word נפש is predicated of human beings in primarily two ways. Less commonly, the term refers to the animating principle of a physical entity, that is, “breath” (Gen. 35:19; 1 Kings 17:21; Job 41:13) or the existential quality or state of “life” (Gen. 9:4; 19:17; Lev. 17:11; Deut. 9:23; 1 Sam. 20:1). More commonly, the term refers to a human being as a unified entity. This includes both the immaterial and also the material dimensions of an entity. Most likely, when Moses describes both man (Gen. 2:7) and animal (Gen. 1:20; 2:19) as a “living creature” (נפש חיה) he’s referring to the entire entity, not merely to some immaterial aspect. In the Psalms and Proverbs, a נפש can “wait,” “be afflicted,” “desire,” “despair,” “long for,” “grow weary,” “fear,” “hunger,” “think,” etc., which involve both the physical as well as the spiritual aspects of man (Pss. 33:20; 35:13; 42:1, 6; 84:2; 107:5, 26; Prov. 2:10; 23:2, 7). In Genesis 46:15-22 and Exodus 12:15, 19, the term נפש is used for countable entities, that is, individual persons who may be constituted a group of persons or be distinguished from a group of persons. This accounts for passages that employ נפש as synonymous or in parallel with a personal pronoun. For example, in Numbers 23:10 Balaam the prophet exclaims, “Let me [literally, “my nephesh”] die the death of the upright, and let my end be like his!” (emphasis added) The Psalmist prays, “Oh, guard my soul [נפשי], and deliver me!” (Ps. 25:20a). Isaiah 46:1-2 provides another interesting example in which the antecedents of נפש (plural) are false gods:
Pierre
Pierre, I did not deviate from the argument. I spent two posts responding to what you said about LXX. (which you didn't then respond to.)
After that, I started discussing “the soul,” what is it? which I think is the title of this thread.“The Hebrew word נפש (nephesh) is important for the Old Testament (and biblical) doctrine of man. The term appears over 750 times in the OT and is translated in the Authorized Version most frequently as “soul,” “life,” “person,” “creature,” or “-self.””–Pierre.
So, the original word (nephesh) is translated as “soul, life, person, creature, self.”
IN OTHER WORDS, THEY ALL MEAN THE SAME BASIC THING. Soul (nephesh) means “life, person, creature, animal, etc.”
Or, to put it in the order I like to define it: “person, or animal, life of the person or animal,”
Quote (david @ July 10 2011,16:17) “The Hebrew word נפש (nephesh) is important for the Old Testament (and biblical) doctrine of man. The term appears over 750 times in the OT and is translated in the Authorized Version most frequently as “soul,” “life,” “person,” “creature,” or “-self.””–Pierre. So, the original word (nephesh) is translated as “soul, life, person, creature, self.”
IN OTHER WORDS, THEY ALL MEAN THE SAME BASIC THING. Soul (nephesh) means “life, person, creature, animal, etc.”
Or, to put it in the order I like to define it: “person, or animal, life of the person or animal,”
Davidok ,we are on the same line,
so now why is Jesus separate the flesh from the soul ?
Pierre
Pierre, just to be clear, this is what I am arguing against:
Quote gene is the soul not the spirit of men ?yes it is
–Pierre.
I do not believe the soul and spirit are the same at all, in any way.
Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2011,09:27) Quote (david @ July 10 2011,16:17) “The Hebrew word נפש (nephesh) is important for the Old Testament (and biblical) doctrine of man. The term appears over 750 times in the OT and is translated in the Authorized Version most frequently as “soul,” “life,” “person,” “creature,” or “-self.””–Pierre. So, the original word (nephesh) is translated as “soul, life, person, creature, self.”
IN OTHER WORDS, THEY ALL MEAN THE SAME BASIC THING. Soul (nephesh) means “life, person, creature, animal, etc.”
Or, to put it in the order I like to define it: “person, or animal, life of the person or animal,”
Davidok ,we are on the same line,
so now why is Jesus separate the flesh from the soul ?
Pierre
Hi Pierre, if you could quote the scripture you are talking about?Quote (david @ July 10 2011,16:27) Pierre, just to be clear, this is what I am arguing against: Quote gene is the soul not the spirit of men ?yes it is
–Pierre.
I do not believe the soul and spirit are the same at all, in any way.
Davidok explain what you believe then
Pierre
You do know that “flesh” and “soul” aren't the exact same meaning. It's like saying “body” and “person.” Not the same thing.
Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2011,09:29) Quote (david @ July 10 2011,16:27) Pierre, just to be clear, this is what I am arguing against: Quote gene is the soul not the spirit of men ?yes it is
–Pierre.
I do not believe the soul and spirit are the same at all, in any way.
Davidok explain what you believe then
Pierre
Well, we've already been over what soul (nephesh) means:As you say:
““soul,” “life,” “person,” “creature,” or “-self.”
Is this the way the word “spirit” is used?
Quote (david @ July 10 2011,16:28) Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2011,09:27) Quote (david @ July 10 2011,16:17) “The Hebrew word נפש (nephesh) is important for the Old Testament (and biblical) doctrine of man. The term appears over 750 times in the OT and is translated in the Authorized Version most frequently as “soul,” “life,” “person,” “creature,” or “-self.””–Pierre. So, the original word (nephesh) is translated as “soul, life, person, creature, self.”
IN OTHER WORDS, THEY ALL MEAN THE SAME BASIC THING. Soul (nephesh) means “life, person, creature, animal, etc.”
Or, to put it in the order I like to define it: “person, or animal, life of the person or animal,”
Davidok ,we are on the same line,
so now why is Jesus separate the flesh from the soul ?
Pierre
Hi Pierre, if you could quote the scripture you are talking about?
davidMt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Pierre
Quote (david @ July 10 2011,16:30) You do know that “flesh” and “soul” aren't the exact same meaning. It's like saying “body” and “person.” Not the same thing.
davidagreed
Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2011,09:33) Quote (david @ July 10 2011,16:28) Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2011,09:27) Quote (david @ July 10 2011,16:17) “The Hebrew word נפש (nephesh) is important for the Old Testament (and biblical) doctrine of man. The term appears over 750 times in the OT and is translated in the Authorized Version most frequently as “soul,” “life,” “person,” “creature,” or “-self.””–Pierre. So, the original word (nephesh) is translated as “soul, life, person, creature, self.”
IN OTHER WORDS, THEY ALL MEAN THE SAME BASIC THING. Soul (nephesh) means “life, person, creature, animal, etc.”
Or, to put it in the order I like to define it: “person, or animal, life of the person or animal,”
Davidok ,we are on the same line,
so now why is Jesus separate the flesh from the soul ?
Pierre
Hi Pierre, if you could quote the scripture you are talking about?
davidMt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Pierre
It always comes down to this scripture, the one and only scripture that uses the word “soul” in a way that seems to disagree with what I believe.I know this will seem like a stretch, but in this one instance, soul, instead of meaning “life,” seems to mean “future life prospects.” And no, I can't provide any other scriptures to support that. But based on every other scripture that uses “soul” to mean “person” or “life of the person” this scripture seems to use “soul” to mean “future life of the person.”
It's talking about being fearful of God, who can not only destroy the life (present life) but can destroy all future prospects of future life, in Gehenna. (Or, “hell” as this bible translates it)
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