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Quote You say
“Inasmuch as God could die He did so through the agency of His son Jesus Christ.”God cannot die.
That's right Nick – I said inasmuch as He can by agency of His son show His love to us all – so He did
JOHN 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.JOHN 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.Jesus – as a man – showed forth the greatest love a man can have – and in so doing showed us also the greater love of God.
He could not lay down His own literal life for He is eternal – immortal.
So He sent His only begotten son who was His life expressed in a son.Quote God in Christ remained with him in death and raised him to be with him, and us, forever. PSALMS 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.ACTS 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.You say God in Christ remained with him in death – did God in Christ go to hell therefore?
This verse makes no sense in this case for if He was with him then how could he leave him there?
If I leave something somewhere then it is not where I presently am.Quote We are made in the image of God, but God does not exist in our image, and we would be unwise to try and see God through our eyes of flesh as being just like us. We are of dust. We can only know God as He makes Himself known, we can only see what He shows us of Himself.
When He shows us a likeness of a man – composed of light – do we assume He is like us? I don't and I am sure you don't either.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2006,23:18) Hi,
Jesus far more often calls himself 'Son of Man' than 'Son of God' in scripture.
What does it mean?
Does it mean he is really one of us or is it just a meaningless title?
I believe one of the reasons he uses this title over and over is because it is the messianic title used so much in the Book of Enoch. I believe he was identifying himself as the “Elect one” written of in that book everytime he said it.This would not have escaped the notice of the scribes.
Hi Malcolm,
Where does scripture say Christ went to Hell?
Hell has two meanings.
He spoke to the “spirits in prison”when he was “made alive in the spirit”
Do you think he meant meant the bosom of Abraham??“did God in Christ go to hell therefore?”
Hi mercy,
Scripture says there is no mercy towards the evil angels but only weak men and since Tartarus is where the angels are kept then there was no point in going there.Hi Malcolm,
You say
“So He sent His only begotten son who was His life expressed in a son.”The Son has life in himself and only expressed the life of God from the anointing with God's Spirit in the Jordan.
Unless he went to proclaim rather than preach. To let them know that their evil plans of destroying the messianic seed line had failed.
Hi mercy,
I think it more likely related to those men from Noah's time who also are saved by obedience to the gospel which Jesus preached to them.You could be right, I honestly don't have a perspective yet formed. I suppose this is boils down to the debate over the state of the soul at death.
Quote (Mercy @ Sep. 29 2006,09:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2006,23:18) Hi,
Jesus far more often calls himself 'Son of Man' than 'Son of God' in scripture.
What does it mean?
Does it mean he is really one of us or is it just a meaningless title?
I believe one of the reasons he uses this title over and over is because it is the messianic title used so much in the Book of Enoch. I believe he was identifying himself as the “Elect one” written of in that book everytime he said it.This would not have escaped the notice of the scribes.
Hi mercy,
I agree.
The Jews rightly called themselves children of God. [Deut 14.1]
Jesus however showed they were rather sons of Satan because they obeyed himBut they all got upset when he said he was THE Son of God so they knew what it meant perhaps also from Prov 30.4.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 29 2006,11:14) Hi Malcolm,
Where does scripture say Christ went to Hell?
Hell has two meanings.
He spoke to the “spirits in prison”when he was “made alive in the spirit”
Do you think he meant meant the bosom of Abraham??“did God in Christ go to hell therefore?”
Quote Where does scripture say Christ went to Hell?
Hell has two meanings.EPHESIANS 4:8-10
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)Quote He spoke to the “spirits in prison” when he was “made alive in the spirit” I PETER 3:19-20
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.Quote Do you think he meant meant the bosom of Abraham?? Jesus went to both groups upon his death, to those who did not repent
and to those who had faith such as Abraham, Moses, David …Quote “did God in Christ go to hell therefore?” You missed my meaning here – God was not in Christ when he died and went to the lower parts of the earth.
God cannot die. God is not a man. Jesus was a man and could die.
God does not literally have flesh and blood. Jesus did.
God does have a tabernacle – Jesus is that tabernacle.
Before corruption could set into the body of Jesus the spirit of Life came into him and he rose from the dead.
God raised this Jesus Christ up from the grave and glorified him.Quote The Son has life in himself and only expressed the life of God from the anointing with God's Spirit in the Jordan. So you are saying he was only the son of God from Jordan?
Quote You could be right, I honestly don't have a perspective yet formed.
I suppose this is boils down to the debate over the state of the soul at death.The state of the soul after death – one of two choices really
Either saved or condemned.
So not much has changed in that respect before or after the resurrection.The question is has the resurrection of Jesus made any other difference.
The answer of course – yes.
He who believes in Jesus shall never die, has passed from death into life.
So the state of the soul upon death of the flesh? Must be life or Jesus lied.The question is what is this 'life' that Jesus spoke of ? Is it a state of limbo?
If so – how is this different from the former state of affairs?REVELATION 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.He has the keys of hell and death. With which he opened the doors to many who had slept in the dust of the earth.
MATTHEW 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.To what end where these saints raised? Merely to be put back into the earth again?
Or to be led captive by their king into Glory when he ascended on high?And as for death – it now no longer holds the souls of the redeemed in hell – for they are made free by the blood of the Lamb.
They have been liberated from the bondage of sin that held them in the flesh to glorious liberty in the Spirit of God.Quote (malcolm ferris @ Sep. 29 2006,20:52) Quote The Son has life in himself and only expressed the life of God from the anointing with God's Spirit in the Jordan. So you are saying he was only the son of God from Jordan?
No,
He was the Son who was sent into the world.[Prov 30]Quote (malcolm ferris @ Sep. 29 2006,21:15) Quote You could be right, I honestly don't have a perspective yet formed.
I suppose this is boils down to the debate over the state of the soul at death.The state of the soul after death – one of two choices really
Either saved or condemned.
So not much has changed in that respect before or after the resurrection.The question is has the resurrection of Jesus made any other difference.
The answer of course – yes.
He who believes in Jesus shall never die, has passed from death into life.
So the state of the soul upon death of the flesh? Must be life or Jesus lied.The question is what is this 'life' that Jesus spoke of ? Is it a state of limbo?
REVELATION 1:18
If so – how is this different from the former state of affairs?
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.He has the keys of hell and death. With which he opened the doors to many who had slept in the dust of the earth.
MATTHEW 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.To what end where these saints raised? Merely to be put back into the earth again?
Or to be led captive by their king into Glory when he ascended on high?And as for death – it now no longer holds the souls of the redeemed in hell – for they are made free by the blood of the Lamb.
They have been liberated from the bondage of sin that held them in the flesh to glorious liberty in the Spirit of God.
Hmmm Malcolm,
WE should not state as fact what is not written.Quote Hmmm Malcolm,
WE should not state as fact what is not written.Quote The state of the soul after death – one of two choices really
Either saved or condemned.
So not much has changed in that respect before or after the resurrection.DEUTERONOMY 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:JOHN 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.Believe and live or doubt and die…
Quote The question is has the resurrection of Jesus made any other difference.
The answer of course – yes.
He who believes in Jesus shall never die, has passed from death into life.
So the state of the soul upon death of the flesh? Must be life or Jesus lied.MATTHEW 22:31-32
But as touching the resurrection of the dead,
have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac,
and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.Is Jesus here saying that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were already resurrected?
Obviously not, was he saying that they were already in Heaven?
Why then would Jesus have to come and die for sin? No he is saying that they are living
that their faith in God's Word as revealed to them put their souls into the category of those who shall inherit eternal life.He is saying that the patriarchs lived, and had life, that God was their God even yet.
That He would not therefore abandon them but was determined to lose none.JOHN 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,
that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.And this is the will of him that sent me,
that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him,
may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.So here is the complete will of the Father in two statements
The first stating that all that were written in the Lambs book of life will be saved.
Is Abraham, Isaac and Jacob included in this group? I think so.
The second statement then tells us that all who see the son and believe will be saved.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are too late to qualify for this group as their lives were already lived out.
But they are deemed to be in the group of the Living because they believed in God
And looked forward to the promise of the Messiah to come.Quote The question is what is this 'life' that Jesus spoke of ? Is it a state of limbo?
If so – how is this different from the former state of affairs?REVELATION 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.He has the keys of hell and death. With which he opened the doors to many who had slept in the dust of the earth.
MATTHEW 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.To what end where these saints raised? Merely to be put back into the earth again?
Or to be led captive by their king into Glory when he ascended on high?Don't need scriptures for this as I already gave them above but here are some more anyway…
HEBREWS 12:22-3
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,What have we who are in the Spirit of God come to? Heavenly Jerusalem.
Those who are written in Heaven. The spirits of justified men made perfect.
Who are these just men made perfect?
Are they not the risen saints of the old covenant.
Who now await the arrival of their brethren in the new covenant?EPHESIANS 4:8-10
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)JOB 19:25-27
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.Interestingly (but off topic) Job KNEW not thought, not hoped but knew positively by revelation from God –
That he would see the Messiah in the flesh – in his own flesh and blood body.Quote And as for death – it now no longer holds the souls of the redeemed in hell – for they are made free by the blood of the Lamb.
They have been liberated from the bondage of sin that held them in the flesh to glorious liberty in the Spirit of God.Do I really need scripture for this? Ah well for the sake of completeness….
I PETER 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.JAMES 1:21
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.I PETER 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.GALATIANS 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.Hades before and after the resurrection
The parable of Lazurus and the rich man illustrates the two divisions that formerly existed in hades, which was also termed the lower parts of the earth.
This is found in the 16th chapter of Luke verses 19-31. In which we find the rich ruler in a place of torment on one side of the equation and Lazurus in a place of comfort in the “bosom of Abraham” on the other side.Between them both is an uncrossable gulf. This place of comfort which is referred to a “Abraham's bosom” is also called by Jesus Paradise in Luke 23:43
Hades before the resurrection
LUKE 23:39-43
And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.We see here two men with Jesus in crucifixion. One goes with him to paradise, the other – takes his place with Judas who hung himself on a tree.
Yet Jesus did not go directly up to his Father in Heaven upon death but first descended to the lower parts of the earth.
EPHESIANS 4:8-10
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)Here he preached to the souls in prison, to those who did not repent in the days of the flood. To the lost who were doomed to a certain dreadful fiery judgment to come.
I PETER 3:19-20
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.How did he come to be in this place? The place of torment?
Because he was made sin for us to pay our penalty. He hung on a tree and became accursed. Even though there he knew no sin.
This is how it was that he came to be first in the torment region of Hades.But did he remain here? No
He could not be held in this place as there was no guilt on him that could keep him there. So he did what none other could do before him. Crossed the gulf between these two divisions of Hades and went to meet his faithful servants who had slept in the ground from the time of Eden onwards.And from here he led these captives as his prize into glory after a short stopover on the earth in which many saw their risen bodies (Mt 27:52)
So upon the resurrection there was a significant change in the destination of the souls of the righteous upon death…Hades after the resurrection
Sin Jesus' death burial and resurrection death has been swallowed up in victory for the believer. We can no longer die but have passed from death into life through Christ who died for us. We find now that paradise for the believer has shifted locations.
From a place under the earth – where the comforted righteous waited for a coming Messiah.
To a place in the presence of God (2 Cor 12:1-4)The question remains is there still a paradise under the earth? I do not believe so, there is I believe a place referred to as “under the altar” mentioned in the book of Revelation chapter 6 verses 9-11 in which we find a group who are given white robes. This group appears to be the orthodox Jewish believers whose eyes were blinded for our sakes that the Gentiles might be brought in. For the Christian saints are not given white robes after death but are advised by Jesus to buy of him white clothing that we might not be found naked – rather ready when he comes.
So there is a little bit of a scriptural background to support my former posts on this subject.
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