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Hi ,
Acts 7
” 51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”
Stoning was a punishment for serious matters. For which crime was Stephen stoned? Saying the Son of man was at the right hand of God?
Or was it just that he exposed the antichrist spirit, the leaven of the Pharisees, in the listeners, who then could not help themselves in their rush to murder him?
We are dust – Adam was dust – he also dust as you say.
Yet Adam was not formed in like manner as we are.
And we are like Adam in every way when we are born except not as he was before sin entered in.
In other words – Adam as a man was unique in his coming to be.
As is Christ – no other human has a birth like either of these two Adams.Hi Malcolm,
God call the descendants of Adam dust too.
All sons of men are dust.
Jb 34
” 15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. “Ps 103
” 14For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.”Ecc 3
” 19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.”
Jesus was also a son of man, and born of woman.
Okay
What about Enoch, Elijah and Jesus?
I do not see them turning to dust again.
As far as I see, Jesus was raised in the flesh.
God did not suffer His Holy One to see corruption…Quote (malcolm ferris @ Sep. 26 2006,12:20) Okay What about Enoch, Elijah and Jesus?
I do not see them turning to dust again.
As far as I see, Jesus was raised in the flesh.
God did not suffer His Holy One to see corruption…
Hi Malcolm,
The scriptures posted are not speaking of our destiny but our ORIGINS as far as flesh goes.All flesh is the dust from the earth. It does certainly also return to dust as did the flesh of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who yet live in the eyes of God.
The flesh of Jesus did not corrupt but was transformed on his ascension to God to a heavenly body which we will resemble.
Quote The scriptures posted are not speaking of our destiny but our ORIGINS as far as flesh goes. Our flesh has a destiny beyond returning to the dust from which is was formed. That is the hope of every Christian.
Our flesh was never destined to die but to come to eternal life.
It returns to the earth as a result of sin and the death that entered into the body as a consequence.Quote The flesh of Jesus did not corrupt but was transformed on his ascension to God to a heavenly body which we will resemble. Firstly – he had a heavenly body before he ever came to earth.
The earthly body he had on earth was taken up in a glorified form to Heaven.
That same Jesus in the same glorified body will return to earth soon.
In that same glorified earthly body he will rule and reign a thousand years with his saints.Quote All flesh is the dust from the earth.
It does certainly also return to dust as did the flesh of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who yet live in the eyes of God.True Abraham and all the saints live in the eyes of God, yet they without us are not made perfect.
They live and all look to the day when the sons of God shall be manifest fully upon this earth.
As I read it – God is equally capable of redeeming and saving our flesh as he is our soul and spirit.
All three thus completely redeemed form a manifest son of God.So the question at issue here is the nature of Jesus' own flesh and blood body.
And the answer requires some understanding as to how any human life comes to be formed in flesh.
Not so much an understanding as in medical terms of what occurs – rather a deeper insight.I TIMOTHY 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.God was manifest in flesh, his flesh was God's flesh. He was God's body, His tabernacle.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.ACTS 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.According to Paul we are saved by the blood of God. That is what Jesus' blood was – God's blood.
Blood is a carrier for the life of the body. Jesus' life was God's life – he was God's Son.I JOHN 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.He was the Word of God manifest in human flesh to show forth the life of the Son of God who came only to declare his Heavenly Father.
HEBREWS 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.This bears investigation as to what is meant by the term “the seed of Abraham”. It would appear at first to mean a lineage that came from Abraham. In other words Jesus would therefore be literally a son of Abraham – and Abraham would be his ancestral patriarch. But this conflicts with the scriptures that tell us he is the Son of God. Has he now 2 fathers? One of the flesh and one of the Spirit? Hardly. He is not like us in this way – for one only was his Father : God.
GALATIANS 3:6-7
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.Abraham's faith is what made him righteous in God's estimation. His faith in what God had promised to him.
So he is a patriarch to all who, in like fashion, believe God's promised Word to them.GALATIANS 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.Christ is accounted as Abraham's faith seed – we see this is not a natural seed of human lineage but rather a spiritual seed, of faith in the promised Word.
GALATIANS 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.So we cannot therefore use a statement that Jesus took on him the seed of Abraham and not the nature of angels to mean that he was a literal seed of Abraham through Mary. It means he was the visible expression of the son of God which, prior to this had been invisible to man and with his Father, and was now made both visible and tangible in human form. In the substance of flesh like unto our own.
HEBREWS 11:1-3
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.Jesus was OF faith – He was promised by the WORD of God to come forth.
He was made from the unseen to prove that unseen – invisible God – to manifest the life of his Father.
He was substance of that which the whole of the old testament hoped for and looked afar of to see.
He was the Royal Seed, the faith seed of Abraham – and we – if we are in Christ are also of that same seed by the same faith in the same Word of God revealed.Hi Malcolm,
You say
“Our flesh has a destiny beyond returning to the dust from which is was formed. That is the hope of every Christian.
Our flesh was never destined to die but to come to eternal life.”Does our flesh inherit eternal life?
Can the natural inherit the spiritual?
Is resurrection into our natural body?
Does the perishable not become clothed with the imperishable?
Does scripture say Jesus had a heavenly body before He came to earth?
Or rather was he not the image of God Who is spirit?The answers are in here and differ from yours IMHO
1Cor 15
“35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”
Mk 12
” 25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. “The flesh is not our inheritance.
Hi Malcolm,
You say
“God was manifest in flesh, his flesh was God's flesh. He was God's body, His tabernacle.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.”God was not ever OF flesh but lived in the tent of flesh of His Son from the Jordan.
“One of the flesh and one of the Spirit? Hardly. He is not like us in this way – for one only was his Father : God”
The Son of God came and partook of flesh by God and Mary thus also becoming Son of Man..We are like Jesus. Jesus was the Son of man. We are the sons of men. Jesus is the Son of God. We, thanks to Jesus are sons of God.
Jesus was tempted in everyway we are but did not sin. And because He was flesh (son of man) He knew the temptation of the flesh of which we war against every waking moment.
Heb 4:15 For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Luk 24:7 saying that the Son of man must be delivered up into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
Jesus, Son of God and Son of man. If He were not then His sacrifice would not be valid.
Quote Does our flesh inherit eternal life? No we inherit the earth (our mortal body restored) to live ever after in it with our Lord.
The body does not inherit us – it is an inheritance.
Even as we inherit certain traits in the flesh from our parents – we do not inherit our parents.Quote Can the natural inherit the spiritual? The flesh coming to eternal life simply means that we inhabit the body with eternal life – never to die again.
When God created the Heavens and the Earth (remember Heaven was also created)
Did He intend the earth to be just a temporary thing? No
The earth was to be as we see it at the end in Revelation.
A place of eternal peace and prosperityQuote Is resurrection into our natural body?
Does the perishable not become clothed with the imperishable?The perishable is made imperishable in the resurrection.
Made a fitting vessel for the imperishable life it contains.
We are given a body commensurate to the life that it will be a vessel of.
This world is not annihilated but the present fashion of this world is changed.
The present fashion of this world is unto corruption and perishable
The fashion of the new heavens and new earth will be unto incorruption and imperishabilityQuote Does scripture say Jesus had a heavenly body before He came to earth? Angels have bodies – would the son of God or God be without one?
EZEKIEL 1:26-28
And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.REVELATION 4:2-3
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.These are visions of the same thing, the glory of the throne of God.
Ezekiel saw what looked like a man seated upon the throne. John the revelator saw one seated on a throne.Quote Or rather was he not the image of God Who is spirit? Angels are spirit beings also and have bodies heavenly
Interesting idea that God or His son have no bodies in Heaven yet Heaven is full of angels that do
There are bodies celestial and bodies terrestrial
What image was Jesus the son of God in – which image we are made in as sons of God?
He was in a spirit body so as to be the visible manifestation of the invisible God.Quote Mk 12
” 25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. “
The flesh is not our inheritance.This is merely stating that they shall not have sex glands, but will be genderless in this respect even as the angels are presently.
It is not a statement that they do not have earthly glorified bodies.Quote God was not ever OF flesh but lived in the tent of flesh of His Son from the Jordan. That is correct – God is not OF flesh – but His son became – or was made in flesh – or took upon himself flesh.
Was housed with, clothed in flesh. And God identified Himself completely with him as His Father – making this His own flesh and blood.
So inasmuch as God can have a body – Jesus was that body – the tabernacle of God.
Inasmuch as God could die He did so through the agency of His son Jesus Christ.Hi Malcolm,
You say
“No we inherit the earth (our mortal body restored)”
What is a restored human body?
Is it an imperishable one like to the man from heaven?
If so do you have any evidence Adam had such a body?“The perishable is made imperishable in the resurrection.”
Is that what scripture says or rather does it not say the imperishable is put on over the perishable?
1Cor 15
” 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. “
Hi Malcolm,
You say
“Angels are spirit beings also and have bodies heavenly”
Where does scripture say angels have bodies?
I know they are seen on earth as with bodies but does that make a statement about them having heavenly bodies?Again just because God was seen in a vision with a form does not make a statement that He has a body. He is spirit.
Hi Malcolm,
You say
“Inasmuch as God could die He did so through the agency of His son Jesus Christ.”God cannot die.
God in Christ remained with him in death and raised him to be with him, and us, forever.We are made in the image of God, but God does not exist in our image, and we would be unwise to try and see God through our eyes of flesh as being just like us. We are of dust.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2006,22:23) Hi Malcolm,
You say
“No we inherit the earth (our mortal body restored)”
What is a restored human body?
Is it an imperishable one like to the man from heaven?
If so do you have any evidence Adam had such a body?“The perishable is made imperishable in the resurrection.”
Is that what scripture says or rather does it not say the imperishable is put on over the perishable?
1Cor 15
” 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. “
Quote What is a restored human body?
Is it an imperishable one like to the man from heaven?
If so do you have any evidence Adam had such a body?Adam did not come to this state.
He could have but before he came to the tree of life he fell by the tree of death.
Man was initially made in a transient state – not eternal yet but with a potential to become so.
And in this state they were in a position and condition of innocence until the transgression.Quote Is that what scripture says or rather does it not say the imperishable is put on over the perishable? That is what a glorified earthly body is – it is still earthly but is now glorified with the imperishable nature so as to never perish.
So what was corruptible – due to the present nature of sin – is incorruptible due to the glory of the Spirit of God upon it.Hi Malcolm,
So you read 1 Cor 15 as saying imperishable qualities are added to this old body of dust.
Does anyone else agree with this interpretation?Quote Where does scripture say angels have bodies? REVELATION 5:11
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;Did John to a voice count here or a head count? When he turned to see the voice that spoke with him in Rev 1 he saw a person in a body.
Did john see a bunch of ethereal wisps – little clouds or whatever? No he saw what he recognized to be angels.REVELATION 7:1-2
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,John was seeing angels here – where? In Heaven – and what was he seeing? Wisps of ether?
REVELATION 8:2-3
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.According to John these angels were engaged in activities typically performed by bodies. They were standing – blew trumpets – held censers with incense…
I KINGS 22:19
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.I know they are seen on earth as with bodies but does that make a statement about them having heavenly bodies?
Again just because God was seen in a vision with a form does not make a statement that He has a body. He is spirit.LUKE 24:37-39
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.Evidently then a spirit can be seen and appears in a form like ours when seen. It doesn't say here they supposed they had seen a vision.
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