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Hi Malcolm,
So a curse only exists where you see the word “curse” written?
The pain of childbirth is not an apparent blessing.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2006,21:12) Hi Malcolm,
So a curse only exists where you see the word “curse” written?
The pain of childbirth is not an apparent blessing.
Is chastisement a curse? It does not seem for the time to be joyous (a blessing) but grievous (a curse) yet afterwards it works the peaceable fruits of righteousness in them upon whom it is exercised. Are trials and temptations which God sends to prove us a curse? No they are necessary in order that an over comer be manifest, a victory be wrought. No battle – no victory. As the old saying goes – no pain no gain.Why was the Law made a curse to us? Because none could keep the Law. Why? Because of the carnal nature which betrayed us. So the nature of sin dragged us down, and imprisoned the souls of the righteous. But the victory over sin which was wrought in Christ Jesus liberated those imprisoned souls and sets us free (our soul – the real us – not our body which is just the vessel) we are right now passed from death unto life.
So the curse of the Law – its effect upon us is lifted.
Yet our souls were not cursed – Adam was not cursed – the ground was cursed for his sake, the body was part of that ground and therefore cursed. But none of us are our bodies, they are a tabernacle earthly for us.GENESIS 8:21
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.So God vowed never to curse the ground again, yet the ground is still cursed. What was the reason given for why He would not ever curse the ground again? Because the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth – because man is now born in sin – shaped in iniquity.
The Law of carnal commandments became a curse based upon a decision, to reject or accept and obey.
So we cannot help our carnal condition which was inherited from Adam, we did not choose to be born this way.
But we do have a choice as to what we will align our soul to. Upon birth it is aligned to the flesh, and has a bias towards sin.
The freedom to choose belongs to all, so man is not cursed, until they decide to become cursed by refusing the Law of God.IMHO
Hi Malcolm:
Was death through disobedience not intended to be a curse?
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Hi Cubes
Sure it was but what dies? the body the earth.
The souls went to the prison house (prior to Jesus' sacrifice and the liberty it brought)
The OT saints who died looking forward to the promise of this, knowing that although their souls might be imprisoned for a season, there was yet hope.
To me a curse is a hopeless situation – if one curses you then unless that one lifts the curse it remains. This is why we are to forgive them that trespass against us, and to strive to do good and to bless those who curse us.
Really people curse themselves by choosing to reject the blessings of God's provided way.
We do our best to encourage them not to go down that road.My point is this – I view physical death as no more than a separation from the natural body and therefore the natural world. A born again believer cannot die – for the soul is always with God, we are right now seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. So we are never separated from the life that is in Him.
Prior to Jesus' victory over death the souls of the righteous went down to the prison house, and were therefore separated from both their maker and their physical bodies. But this separation (or death) was not permanent, Jesus death, burial and resurrection lifted the curse of death and He led captivity captive bringing them back with him to the heavenly realms.
So having just said that – I will allow that the curse of the earth, was effectual upon the soul for a season, those saints went to a place that is described as 'the bosom of Abraham' in the gospels – so it seems that at that time hell (or sheoll) had two areas in it, one for the souls that repented not and the other for those who were of Abraham's seed of promise.So when Jesus was made a curse for us by death in the flesh – it paid the debt that fell upon us, the full debt – for both body and soul. And the only reason that the curse remains on the ground is that God has allowed it for a season until every son of God that is to come forth and be redeemed has done so.
That is the way I see it at present.
Hi Malcolm,
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Thanks for your response. We agree, but I feel that you wrestle over the “(first) death=curse” aspect.
These are my reasons for believing as I do: I feel that man, beast and the creation were cursed to decay and die during the fall, but that this was done in hope of a resurrection and renewal of the creation through faith in Messiah. It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment. Many knew of Messiah yet these died before his appearance… Moses was such a one. He believed as having seen Jesus we are told.Death we agree, is temporary for those in Christ. For the wicked there is the second death, which I believe to be an entirely different experience which no one has as yet experienced, reserved for Satan, his entourage and children. But that is another thread and topic.
Anyhow, (the first) death is a curse because among other things, it is not a blessing but an undesired state and outcome for man; it is negative and we have no control over it. In this regard the creation and children of God all groan and hope in Messiah and eagerly await the fulfilling of the promises found in him.
My Speculations and thoughts follow:
Jesus was in the form of God but laid his glory aside to become one of us. What does it mean to become one of us (human)?The first Adam was created perfectly, had a wife and had one challenge to overcome – to stay away from the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil. He failed. After that, his body and life was subjected to the consequences of the fall and eventually death, and all his descendants since. Time appears to have only worsened things.
It is reasonable to think that the second Adam should be perfect also; he too has one bride (his church) but unlike the 1st Adam, his task was to overcome myriads and ages of the effects of sin and death itself. His task was so much more huge because things were messed up when he got here. The scriptures say that he was and is holy. I do not doubt or question this. However, I wonder whether his state of holiness was not speaking specifically of his spirit and inner man.
What I mean is, I am inclined to think that his body and its needs would be as us post-Fallen nature, rather than Adam pre-Fallen and perfect, for it is the former state that he came to combat, overcome and remedy. It is what he came to know in all its weaknesses and struggles. So holy he was and is, but we are told that he was not comely that we should have desired him and I wonder what else. He went as far as to the cross to experience death on our behalf so that he can be a true advocate for us.
He had to have experienced the myriads of actual temptations that we do. And how could he do this unless his body was subjected to the same conditions and drives that ours go through. God could do all this miraculously but somehow chose to use the old route by having Jesus be born of the righteous virgin Mary. It seemed this was necessary for our sake, to help us identify with him and have confidence in him, also that he should be a champion on our behalf as far as the devil is concerned, and finally to atone and be our high priest/advocate with the Father. He was born of the holy spirit and yet, of a woman. Why? Had flesh no part in him genetically, then he could not have been said to have come in the flesh or to have laid aside his glory and form as (a) God to become one of us.
The Father is the potter and we are the clay so he could do it any way he sees best, and we are ok with that. However, I have heard it said that if Jesus overcame for not being really human but a God appearing to look like a man, then God would not have played fair sending someone better equipped than we are to win the fight for which he had to know we were never in a position to win anyhow, then being displeased with us for failing … this then undermines for those to whom it matters, the glory that Jesus wrought for us for which he is forever exalted.
Now having said all that, Let me say emphatically that I have no clue how God formed his only begotten son, Yeshua, in the blessed virgin's womb. But like you, I believe that he was conceived of his Father's holy spirit and is holy and did not sin, that he came in the flesh and we are redeemed by no other name but his. Amen!
Hi Cubes
Some excellent thoughts.
Quote We agree, but I feel that you wrestle over the “(first) death=curse” aspect. Again I believe it comes back to an understanding of what death actually is – death is separation. That which we call death – Jesus and Paul called sleeping. (John 11:11, 1 Thess 4:14) Death is the separation of the soul from God our father. That is how the Pharisees could be said to be dead while they yet lived, we were all at one time in darkness, in death, lost in sin – and from the time of our coming forth onto the earth – begin to move towards that destination in our bodies.
Jesus said: he that believeth in me though he were dead yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. He also said: he that believes in me cannot die for he has passed from death into life. Once our fallen soul is restored back to fellowship with God through Jesus Christ our Lord we cannot die.
So the fleshly curse does not count for death to us! That is why I say the real you and the real me is not flesh – that is a tabernacle for us.Now the soul was trapped because of sin in the flesh – trapped in a fallen body and inherited a fallen nature – our human spirit being inclined towards the flesh – this is called the carnal man or outer man.
This is why we must be born anew by the Spirit of God, and our spirit renewed and conformed to this image. Our soul – inner man is renewed day by day whilst the outer man perishes.I do not believe our souls were cursed directly but inherited a fallen nature – which is I concede a cursed thing indeed. Yet the soul, the inner man, though trapped in this condition was not hopelessly lost but is redeemable still and cannot (I believe) be lost, for God will lose none of His.
Quote These are my reasons for believing as I do: I feel that man, beast and the creation were cursed to decay and die during the fall, but that this was done in hope of a resurrection and renewal of the creation through faith in Messiah. It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment. Many knew of Messiah yet these died before his appearance… Moses was such a one. He believed as having seen Jesus we are told. Yes sin in the garden caused the soul of man to be trapped in a fallen body, the body was cursed and carried with it a pitfall for the souls contained within, in that they were trapped in the prison house of sheoll. Yet from the outset the promise of the woman's seed gave hope. And these all looked forward to the promise of that coming Messiah who would release them from the prison house into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
Quote Death we agree, is temporary for those in Christ. For the wicked there is the second death, which I believe to be an entirely different experience which no one has as yet experienced, reserved for Satan, his entourage and children. But that is another thread and topic. I agree with what I believe you to be saying here, but would elaborate that this 'first death' as you term is here – death in the flesh is not strictly death to us – we do not die – have passed from death into life.
Quote Anyhow, (the first) death is a curse because among other things, it is not a blessing but an undesired state and outcome for man; it is negative and we have no control over it. In this regard the creation and children of God all groan and hope in Messiah and eagerly await the fulfilling of the promises found in him. The first death is not in effect to us as stated before and so, although we sleep in Christ (as far as the body is concerned) we are not in the first death at all but are found to be in the first resurrection Revelation 20:5-6. So although we can refer to those who have passed on as being the dead in Christ, in that they are separated from the body. But the body is not the real us as I have previously said, the real us does not die but assumes another tabernacle, an heavenly, and waits for the time that the sons of God shall be raised in glorious bodies in the resurrection.
Quote Jesus was in the form of God but laid his glory aside to become one of us. What does it mean to become one of us (human)?
The first Adam was created perfectly, had a wife and had one challenge to overcome – to stay away from the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil. He failed. After that, his body and life was subjected to the consequences of the fall and eventually death, and all his descendants since. Time appears to have only worsened things.It is reasonable to think that the 2nd Adam should be perfect also; he too has one bride (his church) but unlike the 1st Adam, his task was to overcome myriads and ages of the effects of sin and death itself. His task was so much more huge because things were messed up when he got here. The scriptures say that he was and is holy. I do not doubt or question this. However, I wonder whether his state of holiness was not speaking specifically of his spirit and inner man.
What I mean is, I am inclined to think that his body and its needs would be as us post-Fallen nature, rather than Adam pre-Fall and perfect, for it is the former state that he came to combat, overcome and remedy. It is what he came to know in all its weaknesses and struggles. So holy he was and is, but we are told that he was not comely that we should have desired him and I wonder what else. He went as far as to the cross to experience death on our behalf so that he can be a true advocate for us.I look at the word perfect as meaning complete – God made a complete work in creation. Man was in a state in Eden in which he yet had a journey, to come to the tree of life and eternal life. So the man and his wife were naked – vulnerable and yet not ashamed – not afraid – with no need or reason to fear, for they were blameless, innocent. But when sin entered into the equation you now have a weakness exposed and by the lie of the Serpent man was marred, their innocence was lost.
Adam as he was in the garden was on a journey, starting with a further completion by the taking from his side of a rib to make Eve. He now had a greater sense of contentment, a help meet for him – of his own kind. But he was to go on from here to even greater things, higher heights and deeper depths. Sin interrupted this for man. Adam and Eve were given free moral agency and the Serpent deceived Eve. Then Adam chose to partake and so plunged us all into the bondage of sin and death. By the same token, Jesus our savior was also tested and tried and chose to live by every word of God bringing himself and all who believe him back to life and fellowship with God.
We are told that Adam was not deceived, therefore Adam knew what he was doing and the consequences of his actions – death. So he chose death, the second Adam also knew what he was doing – choosing to die for us without blame that we might live with him.Quote God could do all this miraculously but somehow chose to use the old route by having Jesus be born of the virgin Mary. It seemed this was necessary for our sake, to help us identify with him and have confidence in him, also that he should be a champion on our behalf as far as the devil is concerned, and finally to atone and be our high priest/advocate with the Father. He was born of the holy spirit and yet, of a woman. Why? I have touched on the reason why he had to come through a woman before on various other threads. It was promised as far back as in the garden of Eden and there is a very real reason that it had to be that Jesus would be virgin born. God does not act without reason, it is just that those reasons and therefore His ways are often mysterious to us.
By man came death – by man came resurrection. Through a woman sin was conceived – through a woman the righteous one was conceived. God has an acute sense of balance and justice in all things I believe.Quote Had flesh no part in him genetically, then he could not have been said to have come in the flesh or to have laid aside his glory and form as (a) God to become one of us. This is something I have also touched upon in other threads so I will just say this here:
What are genes? As far as we can make out from scientists they are chemical encodings that determine our natural makeup and traits. What determines the combination of these encodings to make each one of us a unique individual? We understand that the patterns that are formed to make our genes are the combination of both of our parents. Our father and our mother. What about Adam? How were his genes formed? What about Eve? Did they represent the entire human race before sin? Or only after it? Our spiritual genetics (this is just by way of illustration) come from Christ even as Eve was taken from Adam…
Adam was formed in flesh and in this form he could decide to obey God's Word and continue on in the plan of God for him or to disobey and fall from the grace of God. His choice meant he died in the flesh – the earth was cursed for his sake – what does that mean? For his sake? I believe it could mean that for this reason the earth was cursed, so that Adam who was part of it might be punished this way, and we inherit that curse of the earth in our flesh also. Sin in the garden brought for them immediate separation from God and the fellowship they had enjoyed with Him. They were sent out of the garden and prevented from returning by God.
Jesus also was in the flesh, could be tempted in flesh and the temptation was real for he had a weak body that had needs and desires and could affect his spirit. He could feel pain and sorrow, joy and laughter as we do, could grow up into maturity, grow old – (the Pharisees guessed him to be a man no older than 50). He could partake of death in the flesh. And he did – he died for us.
Blessings
Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 10 2006,12:43) Hi Cubes Again I believe it comes back to an understanding of what death actually is – death is separation. That which we call death – Jesus and Paul called sleeping. (John 11:11, 1 Thess 4:14) Death is the separation of the soul from God our father. That is how the Pharisees could be said to be dead while they yet lived, we were all at one time in darkness, in death, lost in sin – and from the time of our coming forth onto the earth – begin to move towards that destination in our bodies.
Jesus said: he that believeth in me though he were dead yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. He also said: he that believes in me cannot die for he has passed from death into life. Once our fallen soul is restored back to fellowship with God through Jesus Christ our Lord we cannot die.
So the fleshly curse does not count for death to us! That is why I say the real you and the real me is not flesh – that is a tabernacle for us.
Hello Malcolm,Thanks again. Hope you and your family are having a good day out there.
I believe there is an existing thread in which we can further explore this topic regarding death. I hope to find it and refer this aspect of the topic to it.
I agree that death is considered a state of sleep for the righteous because we get to rise again in Jesus.
Quote Now the soul was trapped because of sin in the flesh – trapped in a fallen body and inherited a fallen nature – our human spirit being inclined towards the flesh – this is called the carnal man or outer man.
This is why we must be born anew by the Spirit of God, and our spirit renewed and conformed to this image. Our soul – inner man is renewed day by day whilst the outer man perishes.
Ok, I can understand that. I wish to add that I believe the opportunity for salvation here applies to all men.Quote
I do not believe our souls were cursed directly but inherited a fallen nature – which is I concede a cursed thing indeed. Yet the soul, the inner man, though trapped in this condition was not hopelessly lost but is redeemable still and cannot (I believe) be lost, for God will lose none of His.
Again the opportunity here is available to all peoples, yet does not automatically default to resurrection or condemnation except through the choices we make. Individuals of a viable age and understanding must choose life or death and so cast their mandatory vote on this one.Thus for those that have loved God and endured while living, we count God to be faithful and that such souls will not be lost. But those who have been enemies of God and unrepentent are lost already even while alive.
Quote Yes sin in the garden caused the soul of man to be trapped in a fallen body, the body was cursed and carried with it a pitfall for the souls contained within, in that they were trapped in the prison house of sheoll. Yet from the outset the promise of the woman's seed gave hope. And these all looked forward to the promise of that coming Messiah who would release them from the prison house into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
I have not given much thought to this aspect of scripture and so have nothing to add. The “Abraham's Bosom” aspect of scripture that is, which pertains to those who died before Jesus' advent. I have mostly focused on the living: how he came to open blind eyes and deaf ears, and set us captives free to perceive the kingdom of God and seek after it.
I think there is a thread on Abraham's Bosom as well.Quote I agree with what I believe you to be saying here, but would elaborate that this 'first death' as you term is here – death in the flesh is not strictly death to us – we do not die – have passed from death into life.
Yes.Quote The first death is not in effect to us as stated before and so, although we sleep in Christ (as far as the body is concerned) we are not in the first death at all ….
I contend here that we do die/sleep in the first death.What I mean here is that we like Hitler and an innocent newborn, the blessed mother of our Lord etc, are all affected in this category of death similarly. One is not better off than the other. No difference between saint and sinner, righteous or wicked. That was precisely the punishment and curse that our common fore parents plunged humanity into.
In this category, John 11:25 is not realized. Thus, this could not be what Jesus came to deliver humanity from, for had it been, the righteous would still be walking the earth and not partaking of the same punishment with the wicked in this one thing. If the death (the first death) is a spanking by cane, everyone has gotten spanked because God deemed none righteous enough to escape it, only the Son of God who could have but chose to be spanked himself for our sake and in the process, save as many as shall believe on him from a worse fate than spanking is what I am getting.
So I believe that Jesus came to redeem us primarily and chiefly (if not solely for the exception of that generation of believers who see his coming in the clouds) from the second death which has an eternal consequence of torment, anguish and separation. The eternal life he gives counteracts and overcomes this very state of affairs for whosoever is in him.
In this category, John 11:25 is realized:
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” GNTJesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me will live (*eternally, speaking of the resurrection), even though they die (*1st death as they likely would); and those who live (*here and now and see him at his return) will never die (*know the second death, and shall be caught up in the twinkle of an eye when who behold his appearing). Do you believe this?”
*My Insertions.
I believe therefore that two types and qualities of lifes and deaths are being spoken of in that verse:
1) The temporal: this life and the first death over which man had no choice and did not choose
2) The eternal: Eternal life vs the second death in which man has a choice and chooses.Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NKJV
Quote I have touched on the reason why he had to come through a woman before on various other threads. It was promised as far back as in the garden of Eden and there is a very real reason that it had to be that Jesus would be virgin born. God does not act without reason, it is just that those reasons and therefore His ways are often mysterious to us.
By man came death – by man came resurrection. Through a woman sin was conceived – through a woman the righteous one was conceived. God has an acute sense of balance and justice in all things I believe.Amen.
Hi Cubes
Amen to your posting.
Quote I contend here that we do die/sleep in the first death.
What I mean here is that we like Hitler and an innocent newborn, the blessed mother of our Lord etc, are all affected in this category of death similarly. One is not better off than the other. No difference between saint and sinner, righteous or wicked. That was precisely the punishment and curse that our common fore parents plunged humanity into.I think we agree but would clarify that if any be in Christ he is a new creature, death has no more dominion over him. He has passed from death unto life. So the souls of the saved are never separated from their maker but live eternally with Him. We can no longer die.
So the body must concede to the curse of the earth. But as I said earlier – that is not the real us, it is a tabernacle. It belongs to us, this much is true and as such it is property that shall be restored when the last enemy is defeated.
As to the unsaved who pass from this earthly life. Their soul still lays in the balance awaiting the judgment to come. So all are either in one boat or the other.
Before salvation we are all in the same boat, after salvation – we switch ships for the SS ZION.I see what you are saying with John 11:25 and insomuch as death in the flesh is a separation from this earth – I agree – all fall subject to this because of the curse of the earth.
But as Paul said – death where is your sting – grave where is your victory? The sting of sin is death, and the strength of sin is the Law.
So it is no defeat for the overcomer who knows with certainty that if this earthly tabernacle of our flesh be dissolved we have another waiting, and eternal one in the heavens.
We being free from the Law of sin and death – go to a tabernacle in the heavens and do not have to fear a coming judgment, do not have to fear the second death. The Devil may have possession of the earth which made our bodies, but it is yet for a short season and we shall have this forfeit possession returned to us also.Blessings
Hi,
Jesus was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit of God.
So he was truly
Son of God
and
Son of Man.Hi,
Some say Jesus was a new creation placed within Mary.
Scripture states he was conceived.
If he was not conceived he is not a
Son of Adam
Son of David
Son of Mary
or
Son of ManHi,
This is topical because many seem to claim that Jesus was a new creation placed in Mary.
Adam means man so unless we derive from the seed of Adam we are not a son of Adam or man.Scripture says he was like to us in all ways except sin so he has to be a son of Adam to qualify as a son of man.
Mary conceived in her womb – meaning she got pregnant in her womb.
To get pregnant is to be impregnated so as to bear and produce offspring.How can this occur?
Two ways when mankind has any input1 – the natural way – through sexual reproduction
2 – the artificial way – through invitro fertilization.Perhaps in the future through cloning they will come up with another way?…
A woman who gets pregnant through IVF is commonly said to have conceived in her womb.
Who is arguing that Mary got pregnant in her womb – clearly she did – otherwise she could not have been the birth mother to the Son of God.
Yet God is limited to having to perform a routine natural procedure in order to produce the son of Adam – son of David – son of Man.
Didn't John the Baptist say God was able of the stones to rise up children to Abraham?
Was God limited to create the first Adam this way?
Is not Jesus' birth the beginning of a new creature? a new creation?
Adam means man – where did Adam come from?
Is God then incapable of creating more of the same from nothing as he did the first Adam?Hi Malcolm,
You say
“A woman who gets pregnant through IVF is commonly said to have conceived in her womb.:”Why is this relevant in biblical terms?
Men say many strange things.But Mary conceived a son in her womb by the Holy Spirit according to scripture. Just because Mary gave birth to a son does not relate either.
She conceived Jesus just as Elizabeth conceived John.
God is not limited in any way but we can trust what He tells us in the Word,
and he tells us Jesus was conceived, a son of Mary, a son of Adam[man].You say
“Is not Jesus' birth the beginning of a new creature? a new creation?
“Adam means man – where did Adam come from?”Where is it written that Jesus is not the Son of Man?
The new creation for us is Christ in us, the hope of Glory.Adam came from dust into which the breath of God was blown.
He was not made from nothing but from the created earth.
Is Jesus not of the dust of the earth too?
He is if he is the Son of Man.The point is that the word concieve merely means to become pregnant with offspring.
It does not specifiy exactly how this happens.
Certainly the birth of Jesus Christ was not natural – run of the mill conception such as that of Elizabeth her cousin.
It was a supernatural one – by virtue of the fact that the supernatural God (Spirit) was instigating the event.
When it tells us that Mary was to be impregnated by the Holy Ghost – we are not given details as to exactly how this transpired. Only that the power of the Holy Spirit was going to perform it.
It was an act of creation for it produced a creature, a tabernacle for the Word on the earth.Hi Malcolm,
You may be right in one sense.
The word 'conceive' can be used in two ways.A woman conceives.4815
Lk 1.31-36
” 31And, behold, thou shalt conceive [4815]in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived[4815] a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.”
And a child is conceived. 1080
Mt 1.20
” 20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived [1080]in her is of the Holy Ghost.”But so can 4815 apply to tHE CONCEPTION of a child
Lk 2.21
” 21And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived [4815]in the womb.”Indeed scripture does tell us some detail of the conception.
Lk 1.35
” 35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”There is no suggestion that this conception is any different to any other conception in terms of the involvement of the ovum of a woman. To state otherwise surely is to go beyond scripture.
Scripture also tells us the calls Mary the MOTHER of our Lord.
Lk 1.42f
” 42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.43And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
Beyond scripture?
to suggest that God is not capable of creating a child in the womb of a woman without any egg from the woman?
That God cannot impregnate a virgin with His seed in a physical form that in no way involves her genetic input?What is beyond scripture?
Is it beyond scripture to say that Jesus is the son of God?
Is this only in title? for scripture tells me he is the son of Jospeh.But we know that despite this – he is in fact the son of God – that God is his Father.
Scripture tells us that we enter into the world with a sinful nature from the womb.
That we are born in sin – formed in iniquity.
It also tells us that Jesus knew no sin.
Was Jesus born in sin? formed in iniquity?Or was he made sin for us when he became the curse bearer by hanging on the cross of Calvary?
And how on earth does his genetic material being 100% original creation from God planted in the earth of Mary disqualify him from the right to be called son of man, and all the other nomenclatures assigned him on earth?
All it did was make a 2nd Adam – formed this time in the dust of the womb of Mary instead of the dust of the earth in Eden. All it did was make another 100% original creation untainted by sin.
Hi Malcolm,
You say
“Beyond scripture?
to suggest that God is not capable of creating a child in the womb of a woman without any egg from the woman?
That God cannot impregnate a virgin with His seed in a physical form that in no way involves her genetic input?What is beyond scripture?”
It is beyond scripture
to say that
HE DID.To be formed
IN DUST
as not the same as being born
OF DUSTand what you teach
is not
WRITTEN
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