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Hi Malcolm,
Jn 5.26f
“For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in himself; and He gave him authority to execute judgement BECAUSE he is Son of man”Jesus is truly one of us, a son of Adam and a son of man and thus fully qualified to judge men, is the implication of this verse, in my view.
Quote We also die with him by being baptised in water into his death [Rom 6] Yes this is not a physical death because it is not dealing with the physical nature.
That follows at the resurrection once the sin has run its course.Quote God writes the future before it happens so of course He knows those who will respond to His grace given in Christ and can write their names now in the book of life. It says we are predestinated – that is our destiny is determined beforehand, this destiny was written before it happens. (Eph 1:5,Eph 1:11,Rom 8:29-30).
Quote We are vessels [2Tim2.20] and Christ too is a vessel, designed to hold the treasure of the Spirit of God [2Cor 4.7] II CORINTHIANS 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.He as a vessel was a little different than us in that he did not need a rebirth to bear God's life, he was born the son of God from the womb. So his baptism was not one of repentance unto rebirth.
Quote That vessel must be cleansed before it can be used, otherwise it remains a vessel to dishonor. He was washed as it fulfilled the pattern of the Law that the sacrifice must first be washed before it is presented.
Quote Jn 5.26f
“For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in himself; and He gave him authority to execute judgement BECAUSE he is Son of man”
Jesus is truly one of us, a son of Adam and a son of man and thus fully qualified to judge men, is the implication of this verse, in my view.A prophet is an interpreter of the Word, by the Spirit of the King Immortal, invisible, only wise. Even as a judge is an interpreter of the Law. And God's Word is His Law.
Any child that is formed in the womb is made of the elements derived from the womb, from the mother, and is therefore made of the mother.
Yes – even with an in-vitro fertilization the woman that carries the child is called the 'birth mother'.
Scripture tells us Jesus was the son of Mary.Hi Malcolm,
All the woman does after conception is provide a safe nurturing environment and meet the feeding and excretory needs of the embryo.
“made of a woman” suggests more than that.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,02:45) Hi Malcolm,
All the woman does after conception is provide a safe nurturing environment and meet the feeding and excretory needs of the embryo.
“made of a woman” suggests more than that.
Suggests to you maybe. The embryo does not build a body of itself does it? It depends on the nutrients from the mother's womb to do this. So that body is 'made' of the nutrients from where? The placenta – supplied and nourished how? By the mother.Hi Malcolm,
When Ps 33 refers to the
'sons of men'
in your view does that only speak of the prophets??Hi,
Who else apart from Malcolm, believes Jesus is a new creation in Mary rather that a true son of Adam according to the flesh??
I would like to hear from others so we can clarify the matter.
If Jesus was born of Mary would that no longer make him sinless;
or would being born into sinful flesh make him a true overcomer that we can follow in his grace?Quote …or would being born into sinful flesh make him a true overcomer… Sinful flesh – flesh that is formed from a fallen creation – it would be in a fallen condition as a result of the fall, so any body formed from the elements of the fallen earth would be weak flesh. Yet he was not born of this, or through this, he was conceived of God, then that which was conceived began to build a body with the elements at hand in the womb of the virgin – which elements were from the fallen earth.
So he was not born a sinner like us, he was born the Son of God, what he always was.
He knew no sin, yet was in a body of sin, make weak by the sin condition.
We on the other hand due to the way in which we are naturally conceived are born in sin which is why a rebirth is necessary.What did he overcome? Himself? Or the weakness of the flesh that was cursed because of sin?
Was he weak in his flesh like us? Yes?
Was he a sinner like us before rebirth? No.Hi Malcolm & Nick:
My understanding as I said sometime ago in the “Are We Born With Sin” thread (I think), is that Adam sinned and so passed from life to death. As a result all in Adam die the first death…. from Adam, to Mary the mother of Jesus, the Apostles and even our Lord who in his exception, had to lay his life down because he did not go on to sin as have the rest of humanity.
So the question was raised as to whether or not babies sin, and I said that in their helplessness and innocence, they do not but left long enough they naturally go that way. Still newborns and infants die, IMO, because of their flesh which has an expiration date stamped on it as far as the first death is concerned through Adam.
So no, babies do NOT sin (and others that are mentally challenged etc) but only die because of what went wrong in Eden through our first parents. [The second death does not automatically condemn anyone as does the first death. Individuals have to choose it].
Why does this not apply to Christ?
He is the only exception that I know of.
1) from the onset he was conceived of that Spirit of eternal life. When the time came when he could have sinned, for he was tempted in every way as us, he chose rather to live the life of the Spirit (the Father's), rather than yield to the life of flesh (his mother).I felt that not until we too are born again, do we begin to have the awareness and power to overcome sin for before then, we sin without even having a clue though we may be a “good” person by some standards. And while we yield to the Spirit, we are able to overcome sin to the degree we yield and are bold and humble at the same time.
I believe that Jesus could not have died in the sense we know had he not been born of Mary, even though he laid his life down. The Mary factor and genetics made him susceptible to the first death, i.e. BY HIS CHOICE, FOR OUR SAKE. On his own merit, he did not sin and so is sinless and death had no authority over him except he that he allowed it. I believe that he is God's holy Son due primarily to his birth, and secondarily also because he did not let the Father down but lived up to his expectations.
The second death of course has no authority over him or anyone who has the eternal life that he gives, for that is the life of the Father through the spirit.
Malcolm and I seem to differ on this point, but I don't know how relevant our disagreement is because coming from different perspectives, we agree that the Son of God lived and died sinlessly, and is furthermore risen again!
Hi cubes,
Sin is in the eye of the beholder too. God seems to regard children in a different light and ignores their follies while they are under the discipline of their parents-see 1Cor 7.14 [which is why that discipline is vital]Hi Cubes
Thanks for those thoughts, I pretty much agree with what you have said.
Quote
So the question was raised as to whether or not babies sin, and I said that in their helplessness and innocence, they do not but left long enough they naturally go that way. Still newborns and infants die, IMO, because of their flesh which has an expiration date stamped on it as far as the first death is concerned through Adam.
So no, babies do NOT sin (and others that are mentally challenged etc) but only die because of what went wrong in Eden through our first parents.
I do not believe that sin debt is placed on the soul of any who have not reached the age at which they are able to rationally decide by free moral agency.
As far as the flesh is concerned it was the earth that was cursed not Adam. The flesh which is of the earth dies therefore as a result of this curse.Quote
[The second death does not automatically condemn anyone as does the first death. Individuals have to choose it]
I'll say amen to that.Quote
1) from the onset he was conceived of that Spirit of eternal life. When the time came when he could have sinned, for he was tempted in every way as us, he chose rather to live the life of the Spirit (the Father's), rather than yield to the life of flesh (his mother).
So you think that Mary's genetics contributed to Jesus.Quote
I believe that Jesus could not have died in the sense we know had he not been born of Mary, even though he laid his life down. The Mary factor and genetics made him susceptible to the first death
Having a body made of the fallen earth made him susceptible to death, on that we agree, as to how that body came to be conceived, there are various opinions. Personally I do not believe there was any genetic defect in Jesus, he was the perfect – sinless – sacrificial lamb – without blemish or spot.Quote I believe that he is God's holy Son due primarily to his birth, and secondarily also because he did not let the Father down but lived up to his expectations. That is very insightful – you see two manners or senses in which sonship applies, I agree, a son is a son by birth primarily, by virtue of being OF a father – OF the same life.
Also a son by adoption is given recognition as a son of the father, considered to be able and worthy to participate in the father's business. So he inherits all that pertains to his father in the manner of his dominion.Quote
The second death of course has no authority over him or anyone who has the eternal life that he gives, for that is the life of the Father through the spirit.
Malcolm and I seem to differ on this point, but I don't know how relevant our disagreement is because coming from different perspectives, we agree that the Son of God lived and died sinlessly, and is furthermore risen again!The second death – as you say – can have no effect upon anyone who has eternal life – amen to that. We have the potential to achieve this but also the ability to reject it.
Yes it is probably not critical to salvation for us to agree with everyone on every point. As long as we agree with the master as He shows us.Bless you Cubes
Hi,
Do men have to choose the second death?The judgement is based solely on responding to the gospel of Jesus and his invitation to be born again surely.
Beyond the judgement there is only the mercy of God based on how men treated those who were in Jesus.
Yes we have to reject that message and be unkindly. So it is over to God to provide the opportunities. How many will remember the time God reached out to them?
Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 08 2006,06:22) As far as the flesh is concerned it was the earth that was cursed not Adam. The flesh which is of the earth dies therefore as a result of this curse. Having a body made of the fallen earth made him susceptible to death, on that we agree, as to how that body came to be conceived, there are various opinions. Personally I do not believe there was any genetic defect in Jesus, he was the perfect – sinless – sacrificial lamb – without blemish or spot.
Hi Malcolm,
You say only the earth was cursed?
What of the pain of Childbirth for the woman in Gen 2.16?
and as for mankind they ground is cursed but so is man;
Gen 3.17f
” ….In toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life, both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; and you will eat the plants of the field; by the sweat of your face you will eat bread till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust and too dust you shall return”Any curse on the ground is also a curse on man who is of the ground. Man had not partaken of the tree of life that he had been invited to do[Gen 2.16] and now this door was closed and he would continue to be as of dust and perish.
Now you say Jesus is of the dust but avoid the simple explanation for this, that he is of Mary. Instead you must surnise that more dust was taken up and the breath of God blown into it and then placed in Mary.
Is this not creation? If so how can this creation be OF Jesus but not THROUGH him as with all creation?
Hi Nick
Here are some thoughts:
Quote You say only the earth was cursed?
What of the pain of Childbirth for the woman in Gen 2.16?Show me where it is called a curse by God – punishment perhaps – chastisement – but as I understand it a curse is something on another level entirely.
I can find where it says the woman was deceived – and being so was found to be in the transgression, but I cannot find anywhere that speaks of her being cursed. If anything there is a blessing inserted as consolation within the words of God to the serpent. For this is the first promise of the Messiah, the woman's seed.I read that God blessed man and said be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over all the creatures upon it.
And this is God's blessing upon man – a blessing from which man fell because of the transgression.
But that blessing is restored to man through the secound Adam: our Lord Jesus Christ.On the other hand I read of a curse placed upon the serpent and his seed – and I find the end of this is the lake of fire – the secound death. And in Gen 4 we find Cain is cursed from the earth…
GENESIS 5:29
And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
I read that the ground (from which our body is formed) is cursed.GENESIS 9:25
And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.Ham was cursed – (called here Canaan). When the children of Israel were going into the promised land they were told not to mix with the Canaanites – why? – because they were cursed.
GENESIS 27:29
Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.Is God's blessing upon Israel? – I believe so, is His curse upon those who curse Israel – I believe so also.
LEVITICUS 20:9
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
God takes curses pretty seriously, even a false prophet could not reverse the blessing of God, or curse that which God had blessed – why? God is not a man that He should lie! – if God was to bless Israel then turn around and curse her, He would be a liar. Even Paul is careful to point out that the reason they rejected their Messiah was that they were blinded for our sakes. Now that is not a curse – and yet look at the severity of the chastisement they have endured…Balaam said:
NUMBERS 23:20
Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it.NUMBERS 23:8
How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied?Now a curse can be lifted – but only when the balance is set straight, the curse of death will be lifted from the flesh.
A blessing can be lost – but if it is God's blessing it shall be restored.
The Law given by Moses is said to be a curse to all who seek to be justified by it, yet the curse of the Law is lifted by the greater covenant of Jesus: Abraham's royal seed.We can bring a curse upon ourselves by chosing to reject His Word and defying it, that brings a curse upon our soul. But the flesh is already cursed, that is why we continue to die until that curse is lifted in the resurrection and rapture. (Deut 27:15-26)
And if we choose to do so (reject His Word and defy it) then we show whose seed we truly are, what spirit we are truly OF.But if we are the Elect of God, His chosen whom He purposed to redeem then we cannot have the blessing of man taken from us. He will lose none of His – but we will be redeemed (brought back to the position of former glory) and taken from here onwards to glory upon glory the likes of which eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has entered into our hearts or minds.
Quote Now you say Jesus is of the dust but avoid the simple explanation for this, that he is of Mary. Instead you must surmise that more dust was taken up and the breath of God blown into it and then placed in Mary. What I have said is that God placed a living cell, which He created, into the womb of the virgin Mary. This living cell did what every other enlivened cell in the womb of a woman does – began to form a body, that body was derived from the materials supplied to it in the womb of Mary – being therefore of the fallen earth, the body that was formed was weak flesh. I do not subscribe to the idea that part of his nature was Mary. He was the same Son of God that had existed with God prior to this, now encapsulated into a cell of life to produce a human form.
The only direct statements in the Bible to the effect that Jesus is of Mary are as follows:
“…is this not the son of Joseph and Mary?…” (Mk 6:3)
You may be thinking that Mt 1:16 counters this statement:MATTHEW 1:16
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.I believe what is being said is – Jesus was 'born' of Mary – born and conceived are two entirely different events. A surrogate mother (in-vitro) is called the “birth mother”.
Quote Is this not creation? If so how can this creation be OF Jesus but not THROUGH him as with all creation? Yes GOD created the body that Jesus was manifest in flesh in. GOD created all things. By His Word. Through His Only Begotten Son.
You ask how can this creation be OF Jesus but not THROUGH him as with all creation?
I read that Jesus – who made himself of no reputation, and humbled himself – was made (not made himself) in the form of our likeness.HEBREWS 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:Who is this who came into the world saying: “you have prepared a body for me”. Who prepared a body for who?
How was it prepared?Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, so in that sense we have escaped the curse. If we haven't escaped, then the law has power over us to make us accursed.
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
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