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Seems like I'm repeating myself here, but what is new?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
Joh 1:7 This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,This Scripture points out pretty clearly that the Word was in the beginning, not only WITH God, but was God. But wait, there's more.. Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.
You see, the Word was in the beginning, but then He became flesh, the firstborn Son of God, and He was called Jesus. Before He was born of Mary He was not the Son of God, but was with God and was God according to the Scriptures. Then He was born of Mary, the first Son of God.
Contrary to some beliefs, the Word of God was not created by God, nor was He the Son of God until He was born of Mary.
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 30 2008,19:43) Seems like I'm repeating myself here, but what is new? Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
Joh 1:7 This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,This Scripture points out pretty clearly that the Word was in the beginning, not only WITH God, but was God. But wait, there's more.. Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.
You see, the Word was in the beginning, but then He became flesh, the firstborn Son of God, and He was called Jesus. Before He was born of Mary He was not the Son of God, but was with God and was God according to the Scriptures. Then He was born of Mary, the first Son of God.
Contrary to some beliefs, the Word of God was not created by God, nor was He the Son of God until He was born of Mary.
Oxy You are forgetting that there are other Scriptures that show that Jesus was with the Father as His Son, before the world was. Since He came forth from the Father I can say that it is His Son. I let you read all those Scriptures that refer to it.
Col. 1:15-16
Col 1:18 is also important because it shows that He was first in all.
Rev. 3:14
John 17:5 shows us that He had a glory with the Father.
Proverb 8:22-30 Please don't say that it is wisdom, that is ridiculous.
John 3:17 says that God send His Son into the world. Where did He send Him from?
John 17:5 Glorify Me with the glory I had with You from the beginning…
What was that glory, IMO He was a Spirit Being like His
Father.
There are to many Scriptures that lead me to believe that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. He did not have that name then, but it is still the same person.
John tells us that.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word became man. Are We not called the Family of God. So why is it so hard to see that Jesus is part of the Family of God. He was the Spokesman for God the Father, because nobody has heard the Fathers Voice ore seen His shape. In the O.T. it is the Word( Jesus).
All the scriptures you gave are true too, when Jesus became a man. He emptied Himself and becamew lower then the Angels and humbled Himself.
Peace and Love IreneQuote And the Word became flesh –oxy
Yes, “he emptied himself and took a slave’s form.” (Phil 2:7)
The whole point of Phil 2:7 is that we are to “Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus,” (Phil 2:5)
To go from a spirit to flesh, took humility. He had to be a person to have show humility, just as he had to be a person to have glory.
JOHN 17:5
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”To go from that glory, to flesh, took humility.
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-7
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form . . . . he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”What was God's form? He was a spirit. Likewise, so was his son.
The scriptures are crystal clear on this.
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 30 2008,19:43) Seems like I'm repeating myself here, but what is new? Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
Joh 1:7 This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,This Scripture points out pretty clearly that the Word was in the beginning, not only WITH God, but was God. But wait, there's more.. Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.
You see, the Word was in the beginning, but then He became flesh, the firstborn Son of God, and He was called Jesus. Before He was born of Mary He was not the Son of God, but was with God and was God according to the Scriptures. Then He was born of Mary, the first Son of God.
Contrary to some beliefs, the Word of God was not created by God, nor was He the Son of God until He was born of Mary.
Greetings OXY…..I believe we share a similiar understanding with respect to The Word….Please consider this and let me know what you think…..We have God the father who created by virtue of his word (eg.Let there be light and there was light and it was good).As we know God is spirit and spirit is the essense of the power of God….So when we examine Johns'words…The word was the means by which God created and,the spirit is the essense of God….The word became flesh and dwelt among us…Hello Oxy,
I have a understanding that the Son of God's beginning was announced by the very first spoken “word” of God as it is recorded “in the beginning”. The Son of God is the “Light of Life” and through Him all things came into being on earth and in heaven. The first recorded “word” in the beginning is “Let there be Light. I believe that “Light” is the “Light of life”-the Son of God. That happened in the beginning, even before day one was named. Remember that before day one, the earth was formless and void. Nothing had come into being on earth.In the beginning was the word In the beginning was the word “Let there be Light”
And the word was with God And the Light was with God
And the word was God And the Light was God, the begotten GodJohn 1:2
He was in the beginning with God.
The Light was in the beginning with God.v.3
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.All things came into being through the Light of Life, and apart from the Light of Life nothing came into being that has come into being.
v.4
In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
In the Light of life was life, and the life was the Light of men.v.5
The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.The Light of Life shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
v.6-7
There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.LU
Joh 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
Kathi,
I think you have brought the most unique argument to the board since I have started here. I used to think there was nothing new under the sun here, as I've heard the same arguments over and over again. But your theory of John 1:1 and the Son of God is very unique and I've never heard it before. Whether that is good or bad is up for everyone to decide. Revelations are just that, they are new ideas given by God. Perhaps you are on to something there? My personal opinion is that the arguments against your case are compelling, however your thoughtful presentation should not be ignored but prayerfully considered and studied out (which is exactly what I am doing).
Thanks,
MandyQuote (Tiffany @ Aug. 31 2008,02:39) Oxy You are forgetting that there are other Scriptures that show that Jesus was with the Father as His Son, before the world was. Since He came forth from the Father I can say that it is His Son. I let you read all those Scriptures that refer to it.
Col. 1:15-16
Col 1:18 is also important because it shows that He was first in all.
Rev. 3:14
John 17:5 shows us that He had a glory with the Father.
Proverb 8:22-30 Please don't say that it is wisdom, that is ridiculous.
John 3:17 says that God send His Son into the world. Where did He send Him from?
John 17:5 Glorify Me with the glory I had with You from the beginning…
What was that glory, IMO He was a Spirit Being like His
Father.
There are to many Scriptures that lead me to believe that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. He did not have that name then, but it is still the same person.
John tells us that.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word became man. Are We not called the Family of God. So why is it so hard to see that Jesus is part of the Family of God. He was the Spokesman for God the Father, because nobody has heard the Fathers Voice ore seen His shape. In the O.T. it is the Word( Jesus).
All the scriptures you gave are true too, when Jesus became a man. He emptied Himself and becamew lower then the Angels and humbled Himself.
Peace and Love Irene
Let us look at the Scriptures..Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.He was indeed the Firstborn of all creation. That is, He was the Firstborn in the family of God when He was born of Mary. Prior to that event God had no family, only creations.
Col 1:18 And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things.
As above.
Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:
The Word of God was indeed the Head of Creation. All things were created by Him.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
The glory He had with the Father was that He was with God and was God.
Proverb 8:22-30 Not sure what your point is with this passage.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
The Son was born, then sent into the world. No problem.
John 17:5 Glorify Me with the glory I had with You from the beginning…
He was with God and He was God.
I know that there are a lot of arguments both ways, but we are made in God's image. When we speak what is inside of us comes out and I see the Word a little bit like that. Can the Word of God be separated from Him? (except on the cross of course)
Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 31 2008,05:36) Greetings OXY…..I believe we share a similiar understanding with respect to The Word….Please consider this and let me know what you think…..We have God the father who created by virtue of his word (eg.Let there be light and there was light and it was good).As we know God is spirit and spirit is the essense of the power of God….So when we examine Johns'words…The word was the means by which God created and,the spirit is the essense of God….The word became flesh and dwelt among us…
Hi TheodoreJ,It does indeed seem we have a similar view, although I'm not sure where you are at with the Holy Spirit.
You might like to check out what the Lord has shown me about the Word of God on my page http://www.all4god.net/word_of_god.htm
Blessings
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 30 2008,14:51) Kathi, I think you have brought the most unique argument to the board since I have started here. I used to think there was nothing new under the sun here, as I've heard the same arguments over and over again. But your theory of John 1:1 and the Son of God is very unique and I've never heard it before. Whether that is good or bad is up for everyone to decide. Revelations are just that, they are new ideas given by God. Perhaps you are on to something there? My personal opinion is that the arguments against your case are compelling, however your thoughtful presentation should not be ignored but prayerfully considered and studied out (which is exactly what I am doing).
Thanks,
Mandy
Hi Mandy,
Test all things and ask God to show you. He is good!
Take care,
KathiQuote (Oxy @ Aug. 31 2008,09:49) Quote (Tiffany @ Aug. 31 2008,02:39) Oxy You are forgetting that there are other Scriptures that show that Jesus was with the Father as His Son, before the world was. Since He came forth from the Father I can say that it is His Son. I let you read all those Scriptures that refer to it.
Col. 1:15-16
Col 1:18 is also important because it shows that He was first in all.
Rev. 3:14
John 17:5 shows us that He had a glory with the Father.
Proverb 8:22-30 Please don't say that it is wisdom, that is ridiculous.
John 3:17 says that God send His Son into the world. Where did He send Him from?
John 17:5 Glorify Me with the glory I had with You from the beginning…
What was that glory, IMO He was a Spirit Being like His
Father.
There are to many Scriptures that lead me to believe that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. He did not have that name then, but it is still the same person.
John tells us that.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word became man. Are We not called the Family of God. So why is it so hard to see that Jesus is part of the Family of God. He was the Spokesman for God the Father, because nobody has heard the Fathers Voice ore seen His shape. In the O.T. it is the Word( Jesus).
All the scriptures you gave are true too, when Jesus became a man. He emptied Himself and becamew lower then the Angels and humbled Himself.
Peace and Love Irene
Let us look at the Scriptures..Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.He was indeed the Firstborn of all creation. That is, He was the Firstborn in the family of God when He was born of Mary. Prior to that event God had no family, only creations.
Col 1:18 And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things.
As above.
Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:
The Word of God was indeed the Head of Creation. All things were created by Him.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
The glory He had with the Father was that He was with God and was God.
Proverb 8:22-30 Not sure what your point is with this passage.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
The Son was born, then sent into the world. No problem.
John 17:5 Glorify Me with the glory I had with You from the beginning…
He was with God and He was God.
I know that there are a lot of arguments both ways, but we are made in God's image. When we speak what is inside of us comes out and I see the Word a little bit like that. Can the Word of God be separated from Him? (except on the cross of course)
Oxy Firstborn of all creation means born of Maria? You know what I give up. With that kind of understanding there is no way you will ever get it.
IreneIn the Scriptures the term “first born” of course can mean the literal first born child in a chronological sense, but it can also be a title of honor… now, we know (or we should know) that the Scriptures do not contradict themselves, right? OK…. so we look at the following verse….
Genesis 41:51 (ESV) Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh. “For,” he said, “God has made me forget all my hardship and all my father’s house.”
so… pretty straightforward really……. ok… next we read….
Genesis 46:20 (ESV) And to Joseph in the land of Egypt were born Manasseh and Ephraim, whom Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera the priest of On, bore to him. “
so…. Manasseh was first born and he had a brother whose name was Ephraim….. BUT….. we ALSO read…..
Jeremiah 31:9 (ESV) With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”
!!!! whats this?!!! does the Bible contradict itself after all? Not if “first born” is a title of preeminence and honor…… and that is exactly the sort if description we read here….
Psalms 89:26-27 (ESV)
26 He shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’ 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.A further proof of this is the story of how Ephraim and Manasseh came to be regarded by the patriarch Israel…
Genesis 48:13-20 (ESV)
13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel’s left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel’s right hand, and brought them near him. 14 And Israel stretched out his right hand and laid it on the head of Ephraim, who was the younger, and his left hand on the head of Manasseh, crossing his hands (for Manasseh was the firstborn). 15 And he blessed Joseph and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day, 16 the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys; and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.” 17 When Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it displeased him, and he took his father’s hand to move it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head. 18 And Joseph said to his father, “Not this way, my father; since this one is the firstborn, put your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great. Nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations.” 20 So he blessed them that day, saying, “By you Israel will pronounce blessings, saying, ‘God make you as Ephraim and as Manasseh.’ ” Thus he put Ephraim before Manasseh.So Jesus being called “first born” does not HAVE to mean that He was created, or to say with the theologians, that there was a time when He was not. Rather it is very reasonable to say that the Scriptures support the idea that the Son has always existed. that He is immortal, eternal, or, that there never was a time when Jesus was not….. and that the title “first born” has nothing to do with Jesus' birth order, and everything to do with Him having the highest place of honor… and if this is so, we would expect the Scriptures to discuss the preeminence of Christ in association with the title “firstborn”, and that is exactly what we find…
Colossians 1:18 (ESV) And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
blessings,
KenQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2008,04:06) Joh 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
Hi Sis Kathi,
At the same time don't forget Jesus' words saying “You are the light of the world” about us. There is no difference between Jesus, you and me as the children of God because our Father God is pure light. Don't make Jesus as another begotten God apart from Only One God in this whole universe.Thanks and love to you
AdamIrene, thanks for giving up on me lol. Firstborn is first born. Jesus was not born in Heaven, but was in the beginning, according to Scripture. Until salvation was made available through Jesus there was only creation. Jesus was the firstborn of God. Scripture verifies it.
“he emptied himself and took a slave’s form.” (Phil 2:7)
The whole point of Phil 2:7 is that we are to “Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus,” (Phil 2:5)
To go from a spirit to flesh, took humility. He had to be a person to have show humility, just as he had to be a person to have glory.
JOHN 17:5
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”To go from that glory, to flesh, took humility.
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-7
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form . . . . he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”What was God's form? He was a spirit. Likewise, so was his son.
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 31 2008,17:47) Irene, thanks for giving up on me lol. Firstborn is first born. Jesus was not born in Heaven, but was in the beginning, according to Scripture. Until salvation was made available through Jesus there was only creation. Jesus was the firstborn of God. Scripture verifies it.
Well, sorry at times I don't have no patience. But Firstborn is First before me and you or Adam or Abraham.
Look it up in the Dictonary.
Webster says the first in a Family the firstborn child.
Pretty clear to me. My Firstborn Son is David. He is older then my second child. Hasst du es verstanden, did you understand.
Love IreneQuote (Tiffany @ Aug. 31 2008,20:12) Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 31 2008,17:47) Irene, thanks for giving up on me lol. Firstborn is first born. Jesus was not born in Heaven, but was in the beginning, according to Scripture. Until salvation was made available through Jesus there was only creation. Jesus was the firstborn of God. Scripture verifies it.
Well, sorry at times I don't have no patience. But Firstborn is First before me and you or Adam or Abraham.
Look it up in the Dictonary.
Webster says the first in a Family the firstborn child.
Pretty clear to me. My Firstborn Son is David. He is older then my second child. Hasst du es verstanden, did you understand.
Love Irene
Jesus was the first born of God, and Mary for that matter. He was not born in the beginning, but was the Word of God, was with God and was God.Adam and Abraham were not born of God, they were in Adam's case created, and in Abraham's case, he was the son of Terah.
Jesus was the firstborn of God. <– full stop
The word born meaning brought forth by birth (www.dictionary.com)
So OXY, Jesus was another God besides One God in the beginning as you quote the 'word' in Jn 1:1 as Jesus ?
Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 01 2008,23:55) So OXY, Jesus was another God besides One God in the beginning as you quote the 'word' in Jn 1:1 as Jesus ?
Hi Gollamudi (interesting name, where did it come from?)There is indeed one God. I am not a trinitarian as described by some in this forum in that I do not see God as being made up of 3 equal “beings”.
In my earlier days on my journey of discovery I did not understand the makeup of God, but I do have a better understanding of it now thanks to some insight He gave me on my request.
He told me to look at myself. Am I not made up of three distinctly different parts, being body soul and spirit? Is any of those three parts not part of me? Yet I am one. Are we not made in the image of God? Didn't THEY say “Let us make man in our own image”?
Yet sometimes the three parts of me don't agree. The flesh can lust after material things, yet the spirit (which includes the conscience) will conflict with the flesh. In the end my soul (identity) decides the direction I will go.
This is by no means a picture of our God, how can man compare? But it is an example of three beings in one. The Father is supreme, the Son does as His Father directs, and the Spirit makes known to us the things of God. Having said that, all authority has been given to the Son, but will be returned to the Father.
So in conclusion, there is one God:
Father, who is above all.
Word, who was with God and was God, and has been returned to His former glory with the Father
Holy Spirit, who speaks to us and teaches us, comforts us etc.
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