The Son of God

[Not3in1]

When God speaks of his “sons” in the OT he is referring to those he created (angels and hosts).
When God speaks of his only begotten Son, he is speaking of a literal Son.
If words mean anything, a begotten son requires conception of a new individual.

If I am grasping what you are saying correctly, you are saying that God “created” Jesus and then transported him into Mary so that he could put on flesh and be born. That is not logical because as we have discussed at quite some length…..conception requires that Mary contribute more than flesh. She is not a flesh-making-factory! Ignoring this will allow you to create your own theology regarding Jesus' preexistence.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 06 2007,12:07)

When God speaks of his “sons” in the OT he is referring to those he created (angels and hosts). When God speaks of his only begotten Son, he is speaking of a literal Son. If words mean anything, a begotten son requires conception of a new individual. If I am grasping what you are saying correctly, you are saying that God “created” Jesus and then transported him into Mary so that he could put on flesh and be born.  That is not logical because as we have discussed at quite some length…..conception requires that Mary contribute more than flesh.  She is not a flesh-making-factory!  Ignoring this will allow you to create your own theology regarding Jesus' preexistence.

Hi not3,
So can you show from scripture that that it is wrong
and that they are not sons at all?
Big challenge.

[Not3in1]

I didn't say that they (angels) were not considered “sons,” in fact they are – they are “created,” however.

It is no big challenge to prove that Jesus wasn't “created” but rather conceived, and born and therefore the only begotten Son. You can find that information in the gospels.

[NickHassan]

Hi Not3,
Scripture does not say Christ, the firstborn of creation, was created.
All things, including all created angels were created through him.
He is the firstborn, the firstbegotten monogenes Son.

[Not3in1]

I said Jesus wasn't created.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
“considered sons”??
Scripture calls them sons of God.
That is enough for me.

[Not3in1]

You need to read my post in context because I feel like I am repeating myself here, but I didn't say that the angels weren't considered sons – they are! They are sons of God – we agree, Nick. We agree.

However, the point I'm trying to make is that these sons of God were not begotten or born; Jesus was both of these.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Christ was the Son of God spoken of in Ps 2, Prov 30 before he was conceived of Mary IMHO.
Lets agree to disagree

[Not3in1]

You got it, brother
Thanks for the extended chat on this topic.
It dawned on me today during bible study that you and I are the only ones engaging in this discussion. I've received a few private messages but no one is posting? I wonder why? Oh, well. Thanks again!

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The Son of God is pivotal in Scripture.
Salvation is through him alone.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The Son who came was made for a time less than the angels. So that would suggest that he was also above them before this.
Some would say the one who had no heavenly status at all was given all heavenly authority under God.
I find this concept hard to grasp-a man appointed over angels who knew about him only as a mystery revealed in the last days?
The vessel for God in full majesty would seem to need to be a special vessel surely.
Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Colossians 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1Peter 1
12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. ….
18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, “

[Not3in1]

Jesus was born a man and lived on earth. Position alone would dictate that he is (for a time – until God exhaulted him), less than heavenly beings. To me this does not suggest in the least that he was at one point in time above or equal to the angels?

No heavenly status – none needed – Jesus has an all-exclusive back stage pass that reads: Only Begotten Son of the Living God.
As a Son, God can grant him power and authority. I've known many father's to grant their sons the right to run their businesses who have no business degree.

Jesus over the angels is not a hard thing to grasp when you consider that the Father is filling him in (on the job training) on everything he needs to know. Plus, being God's Son – he probably has awesome natural aptitude!

Jesus was hidden in God (just as your sons were “hidden” in you, Nick, before they were conceived.) Does scripture lend itself to this theory as well? If not, why?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
God begat him.

Then God brought him into the world.

Heb 1
” 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. “

[Not3in1]

The phrase “today I have begotten you” is a citation of a phrase that first appeared in the second Psalm, in connection with the Messiah's future rulership of the earth, imho.

Otherwise, as you well know, when Jesus was born of Mary, he did not receive a genuine conception.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
So the egg of Mary and the seed of God does not lead to a normal conception?

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2007,06:56)

Hi not3, God begat him. Then God brought him into the world. Heb 1 ” 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. “

Hi Nick:

I believe that I have eluded to this before, but I believe that Jesus was born into this world an infant and was not sent into the world until his ministry.  You seem to think that being sent into the world means that he pre-existed his birth and was sent into the world at the time of his birth, and I don't believe that this is what the scripture states.

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Lu 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath SENT ME to heal the brokenhearted *, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Lu 9:48
And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that SENT ME: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.

Joh 3:34
For he WHOM GOD HATH SENT speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. (sent into the world to speak the WORDS OF GOD TO HUMANITY)

Joh 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, WHOM THOU HAST SENT

Lu 20:13
Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do ? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him. (into the vineyard)

God Bless

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2007,08:45)

Hi not3, So the egg of Mary and the seed of God does not lead to a normal conception?

Indeed it does!

However, if the Son was already preexistent, as you say, and then came down to be conceived in Mary….we have something different than the the “seed” of God going in to Mary.

We have an already alive person.

[Not3in1]

94, thanks for joining this thread!

[lamontre]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 11 2007,09:03)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2007,08:45) Hi not3, So the egg of Mary and the seed of God does not lead to a normal conception? Indeed it does! However, if the Son was already preexistent, as you say, and then came down to be conceived in Mary….we have something different than the the “seed” of God going in to Mary. We have an already alive person.

Exactly;
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Kind of obvious really.

[NickHassan]

Hi Not3,
Outer man is of the dust.
Outer man is cursed to death.
Christ is inner and outer man as we are.
His outer man died, though did not rot, and the spirit left and returned to God but His soul was kept alive in the faithful given Spirit of God unto eternity.

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