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Hi,
Where are the trinitarian believers claiming it is ok that Jesus Christ
is not the true Son of God
but it is only a title for a “person” in God?Surely they must be able to justify their doctrinal stance and convince us of it's righteousness?
Hi,
Is Jesus truly the Son of God or not?The bible says he is.
God said he is.
Peter said he is.
John said he is.
Paul said he is.Yet surprisingly many do not accept their testimony-is any greater?- and this matter is the watershed of many doctrinal divisions.
Hi,
Many stumble over this vital stone.
They say he is a son by title or perhaps by obedience, but he is thus not really a son after all.
Our faith rests on this fact.He is not God, but is the Son of God.
Hi,
Who will deny the Master?Who will say he is only son by title or obedience or derivation but not of his nature?
Who will deny that Jesus is the true Son of God ahead of any other claimants to parenthood.Hi Is 1.18,
What does thie verse mean to you?
1Jn 4.9
“9By this the love of God was manifested (A)in us, that (B)God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him”Hi Is 1.18,
Paul was very fond of Psalm 2.It contains a description of the day of begettal of the Son of our Father God.
7″I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'You are (M)My Son,
Today I have begotten You.When do you think this event occurred?
Hi,
Demons not only believe but they have better spiritual vision than many men.Mk 3.11
“And whenever the unclean spirits beheld him, they would fall down before him and cry out, saying
'You are the Son of God!'
and he earnestly warned them not to reveal his identity”What identity? Were they saying he was not the son of Joseph or were they revealing he was the son mentioned in Proverbs 30.4?
Hi,
The Biblical Unitarian view of Jesus as the son of God is by creation and not fatherhood“We believe that God was literally his father, in that God created his (Jesus') life in Mary (Luke 1:35).”
Hi Oxy,
Surely you are not in the queue that denies the Master?
Surely you can agree with the statement of Peter's that he is the Son of God?
God has said this Himself!Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2006,04:24) Hi Is 1.18,
Paul was very fond of Psalm 2.It contains a description of the day of begettal of the Son of our Father God.
7″I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'You are (M)My Son,
Today I have begotten You.When do you think this event occurred?
Nick,Since you have not gotten a response from anyone yet, I will give you one. The answer is found in Acts 13:33. Paul tells us here that the “day” referred to was the day of resurrection. The writer also references the same verse from Psalms 2:7 in Heb. 1:5,6 and Heb. 5:5,6 concerning Messiah being High Priest. This took place after His resurrection also. Here He is the Son of God, not by physical birth, but by ressurection (Luke 20:36; Rom. 1:3,4). Jesus was born again! We also see this in Heb. 5:9. This fulfills His being called everlasting Father in Is. 9:6. When He rose from the grave He became the Father of a new creation, the first of His kind (1 Cor. 15:20-23,45-50; Rom. 8:29; Again, the “day” in Psalms 2:7 does not refer to His physical birth. It is referring to the “day” of His resurrection. Do you concur? If not, please explain.
Hi typrsn,
Here is Acts 13 in contextTwo verse from the same chapter.
Acts 13 .22
“After He had (A)removed him, He raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He also testified and said, '(B)I HAVE FOUND DAVID the son of Jesse, A MAN AFTER MY HEART, who will do all My will.'”and v 33
33″that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He (Y)raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, '(Z)YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'”Compare these verses and tell me was this speaking of David being RAISED FROM THE DEAD?
In the same chapter it does speak of Jesus being raised from the dead.
” 30″But God (T)raised Him from the dead; “
So I think unless it is qualified by other words “raised up” means elevated or exalted and only means “resurrected” when so qualified.No matter.
Jesus is the firstborn from the dead too [Rev 1.5,Coll 1.18]. And we can be sons of God and of the resurrection [Lk 20.36]and join the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven [Heb 12.23], brothers[Heb 2.11] and sisters of Christ.But the sonship of Jesus precedes his resurrection. We follow in the steps of the human son who was disciplined by his Father[Heb 12.1-13]
And the only begotten Son was sent into the World.[1Jn 4 9]
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 10 2006,21:35) Hi typrsn,
Here is Acts 13 in contextTwo verse from the same chapter.
Acts 13 .22
“After He had (A)removed him, He raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He also testified and said, '(B)I HAVE FOUND DAVID the son of Jesse, A MAN AFTER MY HEART, who will do all My will.'”and v 33
33″that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He (Y)raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, '(Z)YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'”Compare these verses and tell me was this speaking of David being RAISED FROM THE DEAD?
In the same chapter it does speak of Jesus being raised from the dead.
” 30″But God (T)raised Him from the dead; “
So I think unless it is qualified by other words “raised up” means elevated or exalted and only means “resurrected” when so qualified.No matter.
Jesus is the firstborn from the dead too [Rev 1.5,Coll 1.18]. And we can be sons of God and of the resurrection [Lk 20.36]and join the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven [Heb 12.23], brothers[Heb 2.11] and sisters of Christ.But the sonship of Jesus precedes his resurrection. We follow in the steps of the human son who was disciplined by his Father[Heb 12.1-13]
And the only begotten Son was sent into the World.[1Jn 4 9]
Nick,You folks on this forum never cease to amaze me. I have yet to see someone say ” I was wrong”. It amazes me that you can't see that the “day” in Psalms 2:7 refers to the day of His resurrection. The “raised up unto them” of David in Acts 13:22 and the “raised up Jesus again” in verse 33 are not the same. Please read the passages in some other translations or even Greek. Paul here is preaching the resurrected Christ. Please see verses 30, 34, 37. Verse 38 tells us that “through this Man (the resurrected Christ) is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins”. Hebrews 1:6 says “when He bringeth (back) the firstbegotten into the world”. Here the writer is clearly speaking of the resurrected Christ. Please also see Peter's similiar message on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:22-36). The apostles were witnesses of the resurrection of Christ (Acts 4:33) whenever the gospel of Christ was preached.
Yes, the sonship of Jesus did precede His resurrection, but that is not the point Nick. He is the “only” begotten pertaining to His physical birth. There has never been nor will ever be a man born with God as his father by physical birth, but Jesus. This is what only begotten (monogenes) refers to. His physical birth was unique. His birth from the grave by resurrection makes Him the “firstborn” and “firstbegotten” of many brethren. He is not unique in this birth. Please also see Ps. 110:1-4 w/ Matt. 22:41-45 and Rom. 1:3,4.
Hi Typrsn
Thankyou for your comments – your perspective is refreshing.
Personally I think that the inability to differentiate between the physical Son of God, and the sonship that God's exercises through him, (even as he exercised fatherhood through Israel in the OT) – this inability causes some to make Jesus the 2nd person in a mystery called trinity and others to make the Holy Spirit an impersonal life force – when to my mind God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and He is a person – albeit an eternal one.
Anyway – you commented about Psalms 2:7, to which I have a small question – could it not be one of those situations in which there is, in fact, more than one fulfillment.
For example:
Quote
DEUTERONOMY 18:15
The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;Now Jesus himself pointed them to this, and the fact that he was the fulfillment of it.
Quote
JOHN 5:46-7
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?And then in Acts we have Peter putting it into a time future…
Quote
ACTS 3:19-23
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.Also there is the scripture in Hos 11:1
Quote
HOSEA 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.which is also fulfilled again in the life of Jesus…
Quote
MATTHEW 2:14-15
When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.Then there is the prophecy of Malachi concerning the return of an Elijah ministry in a prophet to come before the great and dreadful day of the Lord…
Quote
MALACHI 4:5-6
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.Which seems to have been partially fulfilled in the ministry of John the Baptist…
Quote
MATTHEW 11:13-15
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.And yet is also left open for a future time…
Quote
MATTHEW 17:10-12
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.And the scripture records that John the Baptist is only said to have turned the hearts of the father's to the children [Luk 1:17] leaving the hearts of the children to be (re)turned to the fathers at a later time – if you can receive it, and have ears to hear…
anyway TJMTCW
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 11 2006,02:32) Hi typsrn,
It is not us who added the word [BACK} to the verse in Hebrews.
Nick,In all honesty you were the only person at this forum that kept me coming back to it. I'm amazed that even though I have presented much evidence that this is the response that I get.
So you're saying that the Christ the writer of Hebrews is referring to in Heb. 1:3 is not the resurrected Christ? If it is not the resurrected Christ, then why is He sitting in power according to verse 3. According to Heb. 2:9 He made was a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, but according to Heb. 1:4 He was made so much better than the angels. He was made better than the angels after His resurrection, crowned with glory and honour. The theme continues in verses 5 and 6.
The word “back” in verse 5 after bringeth is the proper translation. That is why I put it there. You said absolutely nothing about the evidence I presented.
Hi typ,
Fair enough but we should not add words lest it is thought that we do so to bring out the meaning we want rather than exactly what is written.
But what do you say about 1 Jn 4.9 and Jn 3. 16-17
1Jn 4.9
” 9By this the love of God was manifested (A)in us, that (B)God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. “
Jn 3.16f” 16″For God so (A)loved the world, that He (B)gave His Âonly begotten Son, that whoever (D)believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
And look at the written sequence of Heb 1.5-6
” 5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“(A)YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“(B)I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?6And when He again Âbrings the firstborn into (D)the world, He says,
“(E)AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”Begettal
Bringing the Son into the world.17″For God (E)did not send the Son into the world (F)to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”
“Yes, the sonship of Jesus did precede His resurrection, but that is not the point Nick. He is the “only” begotten pertaining to His physical birth. There has never been nor will ever be a man born with God as his father by physical birth, but Jesus. This is what only begotten (monogenes) refers to. His physical birth was unique. His birth from the grave by resurrection makes Him the “firstborn” and “firstbegotten” of many brethren. He is not unique in this birth. Please also see Ps. 110:1-4 w/ Matt. 22:41-45 and Rom. 1:3,4.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Aug. 11 2006,03:43) Hi Typrsn Thankyou for your comments – your perspective is refreshing.
Personally I think that the inability to differentiate between the physical Son of God, and the sonship that God's exercises through him, (even as he exercised fatherhood through Israel in the OT) – this inability causes some to make Jesus the 2nd person in a mystery called trinity and others to make the Holy Spirit an impersonal life force – when to my mind God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and He is a person – albeit an eternal one.
Anyway – you commented about Psalms 2:7, to which I have a small question – could it not be one of those situations in which there is, in fact, more than one fulfillment.
For example:
Quote
DEUTERONOMY 18:15
The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;Now Jesus himself pointed them to this, and the fact that he was the fulfillment of it.
Quote
JOHN 5:46-7
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?And then in Acts we have Peter putting it into a time future…
Quote
ACTS 3:19-23
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.Also there is the scripture in Hos 11:1
Quote
HOSEA 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.which is also fulfilled again in the life of Jesus…
Quote
MATTHEW 2:14-15
When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.Then there is the prophecy of Malachi concerning the return of an Elijah ministry in a prophet to come before the great and dreadful day of the Lord…
Quote
MALACHI 4:5-6
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.Which seems to have been partially fulfilled in the ministry of John the Baptist…
Quote
MATTHEW 11:13-15
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.And yet is also left open for a future time…
Quote
MATTHEW 17:10-12
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.And the scripture records that John the Baptist is only said to have turned the hearts of the father's to the children [Luk 1:17] leaving the hearts of the children to be (re)turned to the fathers at a later time – if you can receive it, and have ears to hear…
anyway TJMTCW
Malcolm,The “raise up” in Deut. 18:15,18 is better understood to mean “set up” or establish. This rising up is not from the grave. It is from the midst of the brethren. The Hebrew word is rendered “establish” in Gen. 6:18; 9:9,11,17; 17:7,19, etc.
Peter is not saying that God will raise up Christ in the future. He is saying that Christ was that Prophet that Moses spoke of. He was established “raised up” (Acts 3:26) by God as His Spokesman (Heb. 1:1,2; Heb. 2:1-3). Although He speaks as God's Spokesman after the resurrection (Heb. 3:7,15; 12:25-27). He initially came unto His own first (Jn. 1:11; Matt. 15:24; Rom. 15:8). Ps. 2:7, however, could only be fulfilled by the resurrected Christ according to words of the apostles .Hi typrsn
I disagree that in Acts 3 Peter is not speaking of the future coming of the Lord, as the progression of the verses indicates otherwise in my opinion.
The way I read it he is speaking of a time of refreshing to come in which Jesus Christ shall be sent who must be retained in the Heavens until this time – which is also referred to as the time of the restitution of all things. A time which has been spoken of since the world began by all of Gods holy prophets. And in this context Peter then refers to the words of Moses.
So in my opinion there is a time mentioned here in numerous places in which all things are to be restored (Mt 17:11) in which that which was lost through a falling away (2 Thess 2:3) will be restored to the true church.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 11 2006,04:09) Hi typ,
Fair enough but we should not add words lest it is thought that we do so to bring out the meaning we want rather than exactly what is written.
But what do you say about 1 Jn 4.9 and Jn 3. 16-17
1Jn 4.9
” 9By this the love of God was manifested (A)in us, that (B)God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. “
Jn 3.16f” 16″For God so (A)loved the world, that He (B)gave His ©only begotten Son, that whoever (D)believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
And look at the written sequence of Heb 1.5-6
” 5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“(A)YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“(B)I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?6And when He again ©brings the firstborn into (D)the world, He says,
“(E)AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”Begettal
Bringing the Son into the world.17″For God (E)did not send the Son into the world (F)to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”
“Yes, the sonship of Jesus did precede His resurrection, but that is not the point Nick. He is the “only” begotten pertaining to His physical birth. There has never been nor will ever be a man born with God as his father by physical birth, but Jesus. This is what only begotten (monogenes) refers to. His physical birth was unique. His birth from the grave by resurrection makes Him the “firstborn” and “firstbegotten” of many brethren. He is not unique in this birth. Please also see Ps. 110:1-4 w/ Matt. 22:41-45 and Rom. 1:3,4.
Nick,The “only begotten” Son died on the cross and was buried and was resurrected as the “firstbegotten” or “firstborn” Son. He sent His only begotten Son to be an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Paul tells us in Gal. 2:20 that he is dead with His death and that he lives with His life. It is the resurrected Christ whose life we are to live by. We were reconciled to God by His death, much more being reconciled we shall be saved by His life (Rom. 5:10). Paul says in Rom. 5:9 that we are justified by His blood, but he also says in Rom. 4:25 that He was dellivered for our offences and was resurrected for our justification. If Christ be not resurrected, our faith is vain and we are still in our sins (1 Cor. 15:17) even though He died on the cross. The resurrected Christ is the last Adam who was made a lifegiving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45). As Adam was the father of the old creation, Christ is the father of the new creation. He is the first of His kind. Fulfilling that we would call Him everlasting Father (Is. 9:6). He became the author of eternal salvation (Heb. 5:9). The old couldn't go and new come until the resurrection of Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). It was not His death alone that made us able to become new creatures, it was His death and life (resurrection) that made this possible.
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