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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2006,11:40) Hi Malcolm,
I prefer the Word 's own translation.
Jn 1.41
“He found his own brother Simon and said to him
'We have found the Messiah[which translated means Christ*]'”
* Gr anointed oneGod expresses His nature and Powers
as fruit and gifts of the Spirit in Christ and in men.But God is not the body of Christ or of men.
God IS spirit.When men seeing Christ saw God it was not His face or His hands they saw. They saw God in nature and power expressed through a willing body of flesh that was not of Him but of His Son.
NickPerhaps you are not quite getting what I have been saying – God was in His son – the son was His body, this is how he had a body, how he had blood.
As we have both been saying God was in Christ.
When did that happen? Jordan – not Bethlehem.
At Bethlehem the tabernacle for God was brought to men.
At Jordan God came down and dwelt in that tabernacle, and the son declared his Father.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2006,22:18) Hi Malcolm,
Mk 1.10
“And immedieately coming up out of the water he saw the heavens opening and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him..”
Mt 3 .16
“…and behold the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him..”
Lk 3.21f
“..heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove..”
Jn 1.32
“And John bore witness saying
'I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven; and He remained upon him. And I did not recognise him, but He who sent me to baptise in water said to me;
'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon him, this is the one who baptises in the Holy Spirit'
And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God”This is the testimony of Jesus, John the baptist, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that the Holy Spirit came on Jesus at his baptism. Would you care to differ?
John says that it is evidence Jesus is the Son of God. Again why does he say this?
Why because he was told that upon whom he saw the spirit descend and remaining on would be that one.
Why did he bear witness that he was the son of God, because if he didn’t he would be disagreeing with God's witness.MATTHEW 3:16-17
1And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Do you think John a prophet from God would tell them anything other than what he heard from God?
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 26 2006,00:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2006,11:40) Hi Malcolm,
I prefer the Word 's own translation.
Jn 1.41
“He found his own brother Simon and said to him
'We have found the Messiah[which translated means Christ*]'”
* Gr anointed oneGod expresses His nature and Powers
as fruit and gifts of the Spirit in Christ and in men.But God is not the body of Christ or of men.
God IS spirit.When men seeing Christ saw God it was not His face or His hands they saw. They saw God in nature and power expressed through a willing body of flesh that was not of Him but of His Son.
NickPerhaps you are not quite getting what I have been saying – God was in His son – the son was His body, this is how he had a body, how he had blood.
As we have both been saying God was in Christ.
When did that happen? Jordan – not Bethlehem.
At Bethlehem the tabernacle for God was brought to men.
At Jordan God came down and dwelt in that tabernacle, and the son declared his Father.
Hi Malcolm,
The scripture shows clearly it was the Spirit of God comimg down on the Son of God while God himself gave testimony about that Son from the heavens.God sent His “finger” to dwell in the Son. It does not say in scripture that the Son is the “BODY OF GOD”
God is spirit and is expressed in flesh, but that flesh is not of Him but is of the dust of His created earth.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 26 2006,00:24) , but He who sent me to baptise in water said to me;
'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon him, this is the one who baptises in the Holy Spirit'
And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God”Do you think John a prophet from God would tell them anything other than what he heard from God?
Hi Malcolm,
You miss the point. According to the testimony of John the baptist God told him the one on whom the Spirit came and rested was the one who baptises in the Holy Spirit. God did not tell him Jesus was the Son of God.Why did John then decide that person, Jesus, was the Son of God because of this event?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,00:30) Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 26 2006,00:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2006,11:40) Hi Malcolm,
I prefer the Word 's own translation.
Jn 1.41
“He found his own brother Simon and said to him
'We have found the Messiah[which translated means Christ*]'”
* Gr anointed oneGod expresses His nature and Powers
as fruit and gifts of the Spirit in Christ and in men.But God is not the body of Christ or of men.
God IS spirit.When men seeing Christ saw God it was not His face or His hands they saw. They saw God in nature and power expressed through a willing body of flesh that was not of Him but of His Son.
NickPerhaps you are not quite getting what I have been saying – God was in His son – the son was His body, this is how he had a body, how he had blood.
As we have both been saying God was in Christ.
When did that happen? Jordan – not Bethlehem.
At Bethlehem the tabernacle for God was brought to men.
At Jordan God came down and dwelt in that tabernacle, and the son declared his Father.
Hi Malcolm,
The scripture shows clearly it was the Spirit of God comimg down on the Son of God while God himself gave testimony about that Son from the heavens.God sent His “finger” to dwell in the Son. It does not say in scripture that the Son is the “BODY OF GOD”
God is spirit and is expressed in flesh, but that flesh is not of Him but is of the dust of His created earth.
You talk about the spirit of God as if it were something impersonal, a life force. It is portrayed in the form of a dove – a living creature of the heavens coming down upon the lamb a creature of the earth.
The dove and the lamb are compatible in their nature, each being meek and gentle.
We have already discussed the fact that heaven is a spiritual kingdom – a spiritual domain that is not distant geographically. It is truth or the lack of it that distances us from that kingdom.DEUTERONOMY 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.His voice out of heaven and on earth…
II KINGS 18:12
Because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD their God, but transgressed his covenant, and all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded, and would not hear them, nor do them.God spoke (his voice) in prophets in times past, today in son. (Heb 1:1)
The Holy Spirit was Jesus' Father according to (Mt 1:20)
God is a Spirit (Jn 4:24 )
Jesus said his Father dwelled in him, was working in him. (Jn 14:10)Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,00:34) Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 26 2006,00:24) , but He who sent me to baptise in water said to me;
'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon him, this is the one who baptises in the Holy Spirit'
And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God”Do you think John a prophet from God would tell them anything other than what he heard from God?
Hi Malcolm,
You miss the point. According to the testimony of John the baptist God told him the one on whom the Spirit came and rested was the one who baptises in the Holy Spirit. God did not tell him Jesus was the Son of God.Why did John then decide that person, Jesus, was the Son of God because of this event?
I miss the point?
Was John a prophet? Do prophets hear God's voice?MATTHEW 3:17
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.MARK 1:11
And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.LUKE 3:22
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.Hi Malcolm,
Did John hear the voice do you think? Not stated. According to Mt and Mk only Jesus, and in Jn 1.33 also JtB, saw the dove. He was telling of the one who would baptise in the Spirit before that [Lk 3.18 etc], having been given this information as a prophet from God and he does not say it was because of the voice but because of the dove that he declared Jesus to be the Son of God.Hi Malcolm,
God is the Father of Jesus physically by the work of His Spirit as usual on earth.But the sonship of Jesus surely means more than according to his puny weak earthly physical body, a mere tent? The Son was sent into the world-how do you read this? Jesus Christ came in the flesh?
All creation came through the Son. How can this be if he was only a son at birth?
Heb 1.2
“in these last days has spoken to us through the Son, whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom also He made the world”Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,03:13) Hi,
Does anyone else agree God has blood?
As far as I am aware God doesn't have flesh or blood. God also cannot die. The son of God can have these things and the son of God can die and did die.God is Spirit. He can dwell inside, but he is not that which he dwells in. For example, God isn't the universe, even if he dwells in all. Is my jacket or are my shoes me? No they are merely things that I may be dwelling in. Is my house me? Is my son me?
Quote (t8 @ May 26 2006,07:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,03:13) Hi,
Does anyone else agree God has blood?
As far as I am aware God doesn't have flesh or blood. God also cannot die. The son of God can have these things and the son of God can die and did die.God is Spirit. He can dwell inside, but he is not that which he dwells in. For example, God isn't the universe, even if he dwells in all. Is my jacket or are my shoes me? No they are merely things that I may be dwelling in. Is my house me? Is my son me?
Yes God is spirit, eternal spirit, therefore being eternal – cannot die.
As far as the whole God cannot dwell in His creation argument, I find the term 'Tabernacle of God' interesting – Tabernacle is a house to dwell in. Paul said of our earthly bodies, if this earthly tabernacle of our flesh be dissolved we have another – eternal in the heavens.
You are right though the house is not God, but God lives in His house, the body is not God, but God is in His son.Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 27 2006,06:29) the body is not God, but God is in His son
True.Jesus also isn't his body.
He partook of flesh.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,02:53) Hi Malcolm,
God is the Father of Jesus physically by the work of His Spirit as usual on earth.But the sonship of Jesus surely means more than according to his puny weak earthly physical body, a mere tent? The Son was sent into the world-how do you read this? Jesus Christ came in the flesh?
All creation came through the Son. How can this be if he was only a son at birth?
Heb 1.2
“in these last days has spoken to us through the Son, whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom also He made the world”
Sonship was before he was ever manifest in flesh – as we have already established in previous discussions – Jesus Christ – the tabernacle of God was manifest in flesh.
The son that had existed before this time with his Father, through and by which God enacted the physical creation – came down at the bidding of his Father and took the form of human weakness to redeem his brethren. God saved us through and by him. The same God will rule and reign through and by him.Quote (t8 @ May 26 2006,11:32) Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 27 2006,06:29) the body is not God, but God is in His son
True.Jesus also isn't his body.
He partook of flesh.
Correct.Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 27 2006,06:34) The son that had existed before this time with his Father, through and by which God enacted the physical creation – came down at the bidding of his Father and took the form of human weakness to redeem his brethren. God saved us through and by him. The same God will rule and reign through and by him.
Amen.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,02:13) Hi Malcolm,
Did John hear the voice do you think? Not stated. According to Mt and Mk only Jesus, and in Jn 1.33 also JtB, saw the dove. He was telling of the one who would baptise in the Spirit before that [Lk 3.18 etc], having been given this information as a prophet from God and he does not say it was because of the voice but because of the dove that he declared Jesus to be the Son of God.
Does a prophet hear God's voice?
If a prophet doesn't hear God's voice – who does?Quote …he does not say it was because of the voice but because of the dove that he declared Jesus to be the Son of God In your opinion perhaps, you are basing this solely upon the gospel of John.
The three other accounts of this same event tell us that God spoke – an audible voice – and that He declared Jesus to be His Son.
This voice was heard when? When the spirit was descending.Hi Malcolm,
You may be right, I agree, and my opinion is not set.
But where is it actually written that all heard the voice?
In Jn 12.39 people thought they had heard thunder.I didn't say all heard the voice, I only asked does a prophet hear the voice of God?
Not all hear from God as a prophet does, but when a prophet speaks – all hear from God through the channel of a prophet.OK ,
But JTB makes it seem as though,
from elsewhere in scripture,
that the one on whom the Spirit rests,
who he said he was told was the one who baptises in the Spirit,
is also the Son of God.Is there such other scripture or am I on a false trail?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2006,09:13) OK ,
But JTB makes it seem as though,
from elsewhere in scripture,
that the one on whom the Spirit rests,
who he said he was told was the one who baptises in the Spirit,
is also the Son of God.Is there such other scripture or am I on a false trail?
I thought this was a discussion not a trial Nick.
God is the judge in all things not you or I or any other man.
I enjoy our discussions very much, your questions are excellent and help to crystalize my thinking on a number of things I have not thought to look into deeply until now.
I trust there is blessings in it for you too.
BTW I'm not sure what you mean in this last post could you elaborate pls…Oh wait a minut JTB – just got it – John the Baptist…
Still don't get what you mean by the rest of it tho…
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