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Hi Malcolm ,
If you believe God was only in Christ when Jesus was on earth it raises a whole lot more questions.
Jesus was filled with The Spirit of God [Lk 4.1].Was God also in him- Two in him??
When did God go back to heaven?
Did God die?Paul said in Phil 2.13
“God is at work in you to will and to do” Is this the Fulness of God too?Apparently so because in Eph 3.19 Paul said
“..that you may be filled up with the fulness of God”
So is this the same because the same greek word[4138] is used as for Jesus in Coll 1.19 and 2.9?Why did Jesus tell us to pray to our Father “in heaven”
We have touched on this before I believe. God has sons, what life do they have? His liife, what is His life? Eternal Life. God is a spirit. We are His sons, how? In flesh? No – spirit.
Jesus was born the son of God, being already the begotten son before he ever came into a created body of flesh.Eph 3:19 speaks of the full life of God, this is like a drop of the ocean. One drop contains all the elements that are in the entire ocean. In the gene of a human being is the fulness of human life to produce that human being. As stem cell research is showing us.
When you speak of the fulness of godhead (Col 1:19) on the other hand, Godhead is GOD – the person. It doesn't say we have all the fulness of godhead dwelling in us, it says we are filled with all the fulness of God. There is a difference. Godhead is a person not a life force.
Jesus had the fulness of God's spirit life in him from birth. Making him a son, as a son has the life of their father in them. He even had memory of his past with the Father before he ever was baptized at Jordan.
Had no need of a spiritual rebirth as we have to become sons of God.
Yet his ministry as the Son of Man, which had a purpose to declare his Father, did not begin until the river Jordan when the Holy Spirit came down upon Him and remained throughout the course of his earthly ministry.
God was not only in Christ when he was on earth, Jesus own words in John 17:5 lets us know this, as does Phil 2:5-6. Jesus is the tabernacle of God, he changes not, even as His Father changes not. He was, is and ever will be God's principle channel for the sons of God. (Jn1 4:6)
Quote Jesus was filled with The Spirit of God [Lk 4.1].
Was God also in him- Two in him??As I just explained there is a difference between the fulness of God's life to produce a son and the fulness of Godhead (the Holy Spirit Himself). Two? – there was two there – the Father and the Son. Which is the constant theme of the new testament.
Quote When did God go back to heaven? You still have Heaven as a place distant, He was in Heaven when Jesus prayed to Him, He exists in a spiritual realm, not and earthly one.
Jesus was the earthly tabernacle of the heavenly God.
And in this way the kingdom of Heaven was brought near to men, made accessible, understandable, approachable…
The invisible spirit God was made visible and known in the flesh of His only begotten son.Quote Did God die? God is eternal – which means no beginning or end, God is immortal – not mortal, not subject to death. God is spirit.
Did God die? Are we saved by the blood of God? – of course.
How? In Christ Jesus.
Is God invisible? Yes – yet we saw Him, handled Him… (1 Tim 3:16, 1 Jonh 1:1-2)Quote Paul said in Phil 2.13
“God is at work in you to will and to do” Is this the Fulness of God too?I think I explained this above. We are born by His spirit sons of God.
And to these sons are given gifts, we receive anointing for these gifts and ministries.
Each according to the purpose of God to fulfill His will for each of us in our lives.
He deals with each as an individual, each is a unique son.
Even as a natural father has unique children, each one filled fully with their father's life.Quote Why did Jesus tell us to pray to our Father “in heaven” Because it is in spiritual places that we communicate with Him, in the spirit. We ask our spiritual Father to provide for us according to the promise of His unchanging and infallible Word, in all things we have need of on this earth. It is by faith that we achieve this, and to do so we have to disregard the flesh, our senses and anything else when it contradicts this.
Hi malcolm,
Did Jesus have his own spirit or only the Holy Spirit from birth?
If he only had the Holy Spirit how is he like unto us as we are not born with the Holy Spirit?
We are born with our own spirit and can be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8 shows us we retain both.
Is Jesus fundamentally different then?
Would that not give him supernatural advantages over us?
What happened at his baptism after which his ministry started?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2006,01:33) Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 25 2006,00:59) Easy to criticize bible versions, explain where the Kingdom of Heaven is. Jesus spoke about the Kingdom of Heaven in terms of it being not some place geographically distant from where we are right now. He preached that the Kingdom of God was at hand, in their midst, indeed within us.
Jesus clearly states in the gospels that His Father dwells in him, that he is not alone, that his witness is not the witness of one but of two.
He does not say that the spirit of his Father is in him, he says his Father is in him.JOHN 14:9-10
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.JOHN 8:16-19
And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.The declaration of the Father was in His son, God in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
Hi Malcolm,
I don't disguise my frustration with Olde Worlde KJV. It is because it is able to be misunderstood unless compared with other versions and is a favourite of cults who wish to use that confusion to have power over ignorant ordinary folk.Any way I do not understand what you are getting at as I agree with what you say.
Unless you are implying that God, who cannot be contained in the highest heaven, had left heaven to be fully and only present in the body of a man, Jesus, in Israel?
Surely not?
The Olde Bible is the most abused book, regardless of translation Nick. Before it was ever put into 'olde worlde' language it was completely abused by the 'Catholic' church. Many cults go the next level and write their own bible. I am sure there are just as many outrages committed against the NASB or NIV or any other version in order to teach the religion of man.
Whether these transgressions are regarded as coming from cults or 'mainstream' Christianity, what is the difference actually if they are used to teach false concepts and error.
How many people follow a trinity and read NIV? Prossibly more than read KJV I think.Hi Malcolm,
The verses you quote in 1 Tim 3.16 and 1.Jn 1.1-2 do not refer to God Himself but the divine Son of that God.
Jesus came in flesh so the flesh that was seen and touched was his own.So he had the Holy Spirit from birth but then the Holy Spirit came down on him at his baptism too.
I presume you equate his teaching as a child in the temple to memory of his true Father?
So God, like a drop of ocean, can be present along with with the Spirit of God as well in any person? . Is the Spirit of God the Spirit of Christ to you?
Is that Spirit just a “life force” to you?
Do we have the life of our fathers in us, or was that life trnsmitted through our parents.
Do we have to lose our own spirits to receive the Spirit of God?
I disagree.Scripture only says that when we die our spirit returns to God.
Jesus died.
Matt 27.50
“And Jesus cried out again and yielded up his spirit”Rom 8.16
” The Spirit Himself bears witness WITH OUR SPIRIT that we are children of God”Excellent questions Nick
Thankyou for them, I will attempt to answer them as best I can, here goes…Quote Did Jesus have his own spirit or only the Holy Spirit from birth? Was Jesus born the son of God in Bethlehem? Yes – angels declared it.
Are we born sons of god from our mothers womb? No born in sin – shaped in iniquity.
When are we born sons of God? At our spiritual rebirth. When we are born of his spirit.
When this occurs are we able to declare that the fulness of godhead dwells in us? No.
That we live by the life of the Father through the way made by the blood? Yes.
Jesus was born with the spirit of God from birth, he was able to confess therefore at the age of 12 that God was his Father.
He did not go forth to declare his Father until baptism on the river Jordan, when Got indwelt him.Quote If he only had the Holy Spirit how is he like unto us as we are not born with the Holy Spirit? If he did not have the holy spirit from birth – making him a son of God – one who is born of God's life – then where did he get his outstanding knowledge of the scriptures from? And how did he confess that God was his Father?
How are we unlike to him upon rebirth?
We are subject to temptation – or does rebirth remove this?
We are able to die in the flesh – rebirth doesn’t change this.
We live by the spirit of God – we certainly didn't before rebirth.Was Jesus born lost – or was he the light at the end of the tunnel for the lost?
Did he come to identify with the lost, or to save them that were lost?Quote We are born with our own spirit and can be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8 shows us we retain both.Romans tells us that the flesh is to be put to death, to be put into subjection to the Spirit of God, Paul said he died daily. So the spirit of the world is able to tempt us away from the will and purpose of God through our natural senses. Because of the curse of the earth through the transgression of Adam.
We are born with the human spirit that leans towards sin, and can be filled with the Holy Spirit. If this is a genuine infilling of His Spirit it produces a rebirth.
Which of the two that are retained is redeemed? The outer man or the inner man?
The outer man perishes the inner man is redeemed by the Spirit of God.Quote Is Jesus fundamentally different then? No matter how much the same you want to make Jesus, there will always remain some differences.
His birth – from a virgin womb.
His memory of having been with his Father before birth.
His lack of knowledge of sin.We are all born the regular way.
We all have memories too upon our new birth – but not uplifting ones of a heavenly glory, ours are of our sinful past – and Satan our enemy seeks to drag us down with these.Quote Would that not give him supernatural advantages over us? How then can a man be saved? With God it is impossible. You need a supernatural advantage…
Did Jesus identify with the lost as being lost with them? No, So he was unlike us then, yet he was a man like us.
A son of God, like gods fallen sons. In a body of sin like as us. Subject therefore to death even as we were.
Yet he made definite distinctions between himself and those lost in the spirit of this world.
Some were his lost brethren, whom he had come for, some he identified as being of the world and the god of the world.
Does not a reborn child of God have a supernatural advantage?
Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world.
Which life is greater? Eternal life of God or mortal life of sinful man?Quote What happened at his baptism after which his ministry started? He started his ministry as Messiah – the one anointed with God. The Christ the Son of the Living God.
The Christ – (the Spirit of his Father) and the son of the LIVING GOD
The Father and the Son – that was the revelation of who he was that God builds His Church upon I believe.Hi Malcolm,
Some would stuggle to accept your premise that Jesus was inspired by the Spirit from birth. Speaking of the Word in the temple reflects learning from the Word, and there is no other recorded evidence of supernatural abilities and knowledge during those childhood years. Most would say that his ministry began at his baptism because then the Spirit came upon him froim the God that spoke about him from the heavens.Your premise would seem to be based on your belief that he only became the son of God at his “placement in a surrogate mother” as a new creation not from dust, but many would disagree that was truth. You have never addressed that I can remember anyway, the fact that Jesus was conceived in the same way as John the baptist according to scripture.
You have neither reconciled the scripture in Rom 8.16, or the death of Jesus when he gave up his spirit, yet came alive in the Spirit. And then there is Eph 3.19.
Quote The verses you quote in 1 Tim 3.16 and 1.Jn 1.1-2 do not refer to God Himself but the divine Son of that God. Is that so, and which verses explain this fact?
Quote Jesus came in flesh so the flesh that was seen and touched was his own. Yes and it was his flesh that God was pleased to dwell in and make his earthly tabernacle.
So that Jesus could say if you see me you see my Father.Quote So he had the Holy Spirit from birth but then the Holy Spirit came down on him at his baptism too. Already covered this one in my last post…
Quote I presume you equate his teaching as a child in the temple to memory of his true Father? You tell me where he got knowledge of the scriptures so that his understanding amazed the priests in the temple at Jerusalem? Mary? Joseph? I don't think so…
Quote So God, like a drop of ocean, can be present along with with the Spirit of God as well in any person? . Is the Spirit of God the Spirit of Christ to you? If I am born the son of my father, is my fathers life in me? Yes
Am I my father? NoIf I have a drop of the ocean does it contain all the elements of the ocean? Yes
Is it the entire ocean? NoQuote Is that Spirit just a “life force” to you? Is the life of my father in me my life? Yes.
Do I possess attributes and characteristics of my father as a result? Sure.
Is my father just a life force to me? Is that bond of life an impersonal thing or am I his own flesh and blood?…Quote Do we have the life of our fathers in us, or was that life transmitted through our parents. Not quite sure what you mean by that, our forefathers? We are part of a genealogical life stream of our ancestors if that is what you mean.
Quote Do we have to lose our own spirits to receive the Spirit of God? Our minds have to be renewed, to be conformed to the image of Christ from the image of the world that they once were conformed to because of sin – if that is what you mean.
Quote Scripture only says that when we die our spirit returns to God. Yeah we have covered this one before, body, soul, spirit – 3 part being – yes or no.
The body goes to the dust from whence it came – because of the curse of the earth.
The spirit goes back to god who gave it.
That is 2 down still one to go…Is the soul redeemed?
Hi Malcolm,
1Jn 1 1-3
” What was from the beginning.
what we have sen with our eyes,
what we have looked at and touched with our hands ,
concerning the Word of Life-
and the Life was manifested ,
and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you
the eternal life which was WITH THE FATHER AND WAS MANIFESTED TO US-“Now the Word was with the Father. The Father is God, so the Word is not that God but is the Son of that God.
Jn 1 1-2
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God”This speaks the same language about the same being who was with the Father God and was also divine.
Do you believe this?Quote 1Jn 1 1-3
” What was from the beginning.
what we have sen with our eyes,
what we have looked at and touched with our hands ,
concerning the Word of Life-
and the Life was manifested ,
and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you
the eternal life which was WITH THE FATHER AND WAS MANIFESTED TO US-“What was before the beginning, from out of which came forth that of which you refer?
They saw God – how? Through Son!
They looked upon and touched God with their hands – how? In His son.
Who did they both see and hate? (John 15:24)
Both Father and Son – how? In His son.
Exactly the life was manifested in flesh, because you cannot see an invisible Spirit of Life unless He is manifest in some visible form.
Yes the same life of the Father was with the Father – His only begotten son with Him before the foundation of the world.Quote Now the Word was with the Father. The Father is God, so the Word is not that God but is the Son of that God. Jn 1 1-2
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God”This speaks the same language about the same being who was with the Father God and was also divine.
Do you believe this?At the beginning a Word son existed with His word Father.
That son was Light, God also is Light.
That son had Life in him. And when he came to earth said:For AS THE FATHER has LIFE IN HIMSELF so He (the Father) has given to His son to have Life in himself. (John 5:26)
Hi Malcolm,
If they touched the flesh of Jesus they touched the flesh of the Son of God. He was in the flesh and the Father[as Spirit] was in Him. The Father does not have flesh.Jesus is the tabernacle of God, in Jesus He had flesh. Jesus was His blood, we are saved by the blood of God.
Hi Malcolm,
God did not come in flesh. Such a claim is antichrist. God does not have flesh and blood and that ius why he sent His Son in flesh to be a vessel for Him.
Acts 20.28 is often used to suggest God has blood but it stands alone and relates to the blood of His family surely.Hi Malcolm,
The tabernacle was a dwelling place for God as is the Son. But God is not a part of the tabernacle that houses Him.Antichrist – big words – you mean Beelzebub do you?
Surely? – ye shall not surely die – surely…
I read that we are saved by the blood of God.Hi Malcolm,
You know the verse in 1 Jn 4.2“every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist….”
So Christ was before he came.
Christ came in the flesh and not God.You say God came in the flesh of Christ at the age of 33?
I agree, but in the vessel of his soul as Spirit.God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself
Nick
Try reading my past posts – you will find that I agree Jesus existed before his earthly life, with His Father.
Quote Christ came in the flesh and not God. Christ = Messiah = anionted – er – ing
So Christ can refer to
One who is anointed
One who is the anointer
And also to the anointing spiritSo that statement of yours is an oxymoron in my opinion.
Quote You say God came in the flesh of Christ at the age of 33?
I agree, but in the vessel of his soul as Spirit.You say that the Jordan experience of Jesus was a rebirth as we get?
Jesus needed a rebirth? I don't see it – either implied or stated.Quote Does anyone else agree God has blood? Does a son of God have blood on this earth?
Are they sons of God in flesh?
Is the flesh of God?
Or is it a body for God's spirit to dwell in to express as sons?
Who is the head of the Body – the Church? Christ Jesus.
Who is His head? God.
Does God dwell with His people and will there be a new heavens and new earth in which the throne of God and the Lamb sits? will that be the tabernacle of God with men, and God with us?REVELATION 21:3
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.Hi Malcolm,
I prefer the Word 's own translation.
Jn 1.41
“He found his own brother Simon and said to him
'We have found the Messiah[which translated means Christ*]'”
* Gr anointed oneGod expresses His nature and Powers
as fruit and gifts of the Spirit in Christ and in men.But God is not the body of Christ or of men.
God IS spirit.When men seeing Christ saw God it was not His face or His hands they saw. They saw God in nature and power expressed through a willing body of flesh that was not of Him but of His Son.
Hi Malcolm,
Mk 1.10
“And immediately coming up out of the water he saw the heavens opening and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him..”
Mt 3 .16
“…and behold the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him..”
Lk 3.21f
“..heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove..”
Jn 1.32
“And John bore witness saying
'I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven; and He remained upon him. And I did not recognise him, but He who sent me to baptise in water said to me;
'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon him, this is the one who baptises in the Holy Spirit'
And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God”This is the testimony of Jesus, John the baptist, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that the Holy Spirit came on Jesus at his baptism. Would you care to differ?
John says that it is evidence Jesus is the Son of God. Again why does he say this?
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