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God left His signature in creation, everything in the natural order speaks of His unchanging nature and ways. We are told by Jesus that the natural life is a type for the spiritual. His parables of seed etc make this very clear.
ROMANS 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:It follows therefore that if Jesus is the son of God he would have identical genetics (spiritually speaking) in order for the word son to have any legitimate meaning.
Scripture clearly tells us
That God is Light and that Jesus is the light of God manifest to the world.
That God is Word and that Jesus is also Word.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 24 2006,03:17) Hi Rudy,
I have enjoyed reading what you have written – you have great clarity of thought and it comes through in your posts.A question for you: what do you make of Romans 10:13 (cf. Acts 2:21 and Joel 2:32)?
Interested in your thoughts…
Blessings
Hi Is 1.18,
While we await the view of our old friend let me try.Joel 2.28f
” It will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; and your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions, even on the male and female servants I will pour out my Spirit in those days.I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, blood, fire and columns of smoke and the moon will be turned into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said , even among the survivors whom the Lord calls”
Acts 2.17f
” And is shall be in the last days'
God says,
'That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind; and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; Even on My bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit and they shall prophesy.And I will grant wonders in the sky above and signs of the earth below, blood and fire, and vapor of smoke.
The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
And it shall be that everyone who call on the name of the Lord will be saved'”Rom 10.18f
But what does it say?
'The Word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart'-
that is the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
For as scripture says,
'Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed'
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
For
'Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved'”So starting with Romans we should look at to whom the letter was written.
Rom 1.7
“to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints”So this message is not to the unsaved but to the saved. It is written to the Jewish converts who were considering turning back to reliance on the Law and not walking in the Spirit. So Paul is explaining to them how to take their first faltering steps in faith to ensure the seed planted in them would not die. It is not a way of salvation for the unsaved.
Joel speaks of times yet to come when wondrous heavenly events announce the arrival of the King, and when salvation is available to all by calling on the Lord. Romans uses it to show there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile but “whoever” and “all” who call on the name will be saved.
Acts uses the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost as a similar action of God to that shown in Joel. Note that the Holy Spirit is called by God “MY Spirit”, not a third person of any trinity.
Faith in God is now only expressed as faith in Jesus, the messenger and the only gate to God.
Hi Dave,
Quote But being called “almighty” denotes that Jehovah isn't limited in his might, whereas someone that is mighty, is.
I don't think I misrepresented you by using this quote. You did write it David. And I didn't take your words out of context. I think when you realised the implication(s) of what you wrote you started back peddling….Anyway, I believe we've reached the point where vigorous debate ends and petty argumentation begins, so I think i'll leave it there….[unless you continue implying that all 43 instances where “Almighty God” is used in Scripture, it refers exclusively to The Father – in which case I will continue to ask you for verification…naturally]
No hard feelings….
Is 1:18Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2006,06:43) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 24 2006,03:17) Hi Rudy,
I have enjoyed reading what you have written – you have great clarity of thought and it comes through in your posts.A question for you: what do you make of Romans 10:13 (cf. Acts 2:21 and Joel 2:32)?
Interested in your thoughts…
Blessings
Hi Is 1.18,
While we await the view of our old friend let me try.Joel 2.28f
” It will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; and your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions, even on the male and female servants I will pour out my Spirit in those days.I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, blood, fire and columns of smoke and the moon will be turned into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said , even among the survivors whom the Lord calls”
Acts 2.17f
” And is shall be in the last days'
God says,
'That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind; and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; Even on My bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit and they shall prophesy.And I will grant wonders in the sky above and signs of the earth below, blood and fire, and vapor of smoke.
The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
And it shall be that everyone who call on the name of the Lord will be saved'”Rom 10.18f
But what does it say?
'The Word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart'-
that is the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
For as scripture says,
'Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed'
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
For
'Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved'”So starting with Romans we should look at to whom the letter was written.
Rom 1.7
“to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints”So this message is not to the unsaved but to the saved. It is written to the Jewish converts who were considering turning back to reliance on the Law and not walking in the Spirit. So Paul is explaining to them how to take their first faltering steps in faith to ensure the seed planted in them would not die. It is not a way of salvation for the unsaved.
Joel speaks of times yet to come when wondrous heavenly events announce the arrival of the King, and when salvation is available to all by calling on the Lord. Romans uses it to show there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile but “whoever” and “all” who call on the name will be saved.
Acts uses the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost as a similar action of God to that shown in Joel. Note that the Holy Spirit is called by God “MY Spirit”, not a third person of any trinity.
Faith in God is now only expressed as faith in Jesus, the messenger and the only gate to God.
Interesting. Thanks NH. I will see what Rudy writes and then give my perspective….How's things at home?
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 24 2006,06:11) God left His signature in creation, everything in the natural order speaks of His unchanging nature and ways. We are told by Jesus that the natural life is a type for the spiritual. His parables of seed etc make this very clear. ROMANS 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:It follows therefore that if Jesus is the son of God he would have identical genetics (spiritually speaking) in order for the word son to have any legitimate meaning.
Scripture clearly tells us
That God is Light and that Jesus is the light of God manifest to the world.
That God is Word and that Jesus is also Word.
Hi Malcolm,
The son images the father. Much more so because no other was involved but he was begotten directly of God. This great and powerful glorious being through whom all being flowed into creation was above the angels and other sons of God, their being too coming through him.
Matt 17 1
” Six days later Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became as white as light. And behold Moses and Elijah appeared to them and, talking with him….and behold a voice out of the cloud said
“This is My beloved Son with whom I am well pleased;listen to him'”John said
Jn 1.14
” And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the only begotten of the Father..”
Peter said
2Peter 1.16
“…we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made too him by the Majestic Glory
'This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased'-
and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain”Such is the glory of the Son attested by the Father and the apostles.
The son is the image of the father, as any son is an image of his father.
Also through the son the fullness of the invisible Father is manifest, as God was IN Christ.
God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. In Him God dwelt bodily.
He came to do not his own will but that of his Father, he manifest not himself but his Father, he came not in his own name but his Father's name.Question who is the Son of Man?
Jesus?
Where was he when he was manifesting the Father?
Where was the Father?JOHN 3:12-14
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:Jesus is the man that ascended up to heaven, the same who came down from heaven being sent by his Father, and here he says that HE IS IN HEAVEN. (Prov 30:4, Eph 4:8-10)
He is not saying the son of man which will be in heaven once he has ascended.
If you put God in Heaven as therefore in a place separate from the son on earth then the scripture begins to get messy.
Jesus began his ministry preaching what?
'Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.'
When he was demanded of the Pharisees when the Kingdom of Heaven should come, he replied, its not something you observe with natural eyes, it is a spiritual Kingdom and it is in your midst as we speak. (Luke 17:20-21)EPHESIANS 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:EPHESIANS 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:We are right now seated together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus if we are in Christ. So what is 'heavenly places'?
EPHESIANS 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,So this is where Jesus is seated on the right hand of God, in heavenly places. In other words in Heaven – in the Kingdom of Heaven.
To use the argument that becuase a voice came from heaven saying 'this is my beloved son…' this is proof that the Father did not dwell IN His son, is invalid.Hi Malcolm,
We are one with the Son of God who is in heaven. He is the head and we make up some other aspect of the one body as in Coll 3.1-3 and the verses in Eph etc. When he, the King was on earth, his kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, was being established here by that fact and thus that kingdom was 'at hand' and 'in their midst'
God is in heaven and His dwelling in Jesus and us as Spirit does not change that. He dwelled on earth with the Israelites in the desert but was not contained by earth. Even the highest heaven cannot contain God. Heaven is His throne and earth His footstool.
His manifestation by His Spirit is possible everywhere but He IS in heaven where Jesus told us to pray to Him even as that manifestation, the fullness of Deity, was in him.
If the Spirit of God is as the finger of God then when we greet someone which is more important;
shaking their hand or
speaking to their face?Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 24 2006,15:10) Question who is the Son of Man?
Jesus?
Where was he when he was manifesting the Father?
Where was the Father?JOHN 3:12-14
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:Jesus is the man that ascended up to heaven, the same who came down from heaven being sent by his Father, and here he says that HE IS IN HEAVEN. (Prov 30:4, Eph 4:8-10)
EPHESIANS 1:3
He is not saying the son of man which will be in heaven once he has ascended.
If you put God in Heaven as therefore in a place separate from the son on earth then the scripture begins to get messy.
Jesus began his ministry preaching what?
'Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.'
When he was demanded of the Pharisees when the Kingdom of Heaven should come, he replied, its not something you observe with natural eyes, it is a spiritual Kingdom and it is in your midst as we speak. (Luke 17:20-21)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: EPHESIANS 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:We are right now seated together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus if we are in Christ. So what is 'heavenly places'?
EPHESIANS 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,So this is where Jesus is seated on the right hand of God, in heavenly places. In other words in Heaven – in the Kingdom of Heaven.
To use the argument that becuase a voice came from heaven saying 'this is my beloved son…' this is proof that the Father did not dwell IN His son, is invalid.
Hi Malcolm,
Good old confusing KJV
Jn 3.13f
“No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven;the Son of Man. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up..”
Sounds simpler in NASBHi,
Why did Nathaniel say to Jesus in Jn 1,49 after Jesus had shown his Gift of the Spirit to him, saying he had seen him under the fig tree;
'Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel”?How did he know this showed he was the Son of God?
Hi,
Some have said “EGO EIMI” meaning “I AM” are words that indicate Jesus is part of a trinity God because it suggests eternal coexistence with the Father to them. How “coexistence WITH” can mean “PART OF beats me.
Anyway;
Jn 8.24
“..;for unless you know that I am, you shall die in your sins”
v28
“When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am..”
v58
“…before Abraham was born, I am”So Jesus Christ is the same “Yesterday, today and forever” according to Hebrews.
Rev 1.17f says about him
“..I am the first and the last and the living one;and I was dead ,and behold I am alive forevermore”
and 2.8
“The first and the last, who was dead , and has come to life..”The living one was from God and first, before all others in creation.
He can say to that creation
“I am”Hi,
Rom 8.3
“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did; sending His own son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh”So was the Son of God a Son before he was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh?
Easy to criticize bible versions, explain where the Kingdom of Heaven is.
Jesus spoke about the Kingdom of Heaven in terms of it being not some place geographically distant from where we are right now. He preached that the Kingdom of God was at hand, in their midst, indeed within us.
Jesus clearly states in the gospels that His Father dwells in him, that he is not alone, that his witness is not the witness of one but of two.
He does not say that the spirit of his Father is in him, he says his Father is in him.JOHN 14:9-10
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.JOHN 8:16-19
And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.The declaration of the Father was in His son, God in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2006,22:50) Hi,
Why did Nathaniel say to Jesus in Jn 1,49 after Jesus had shown his Gift of the Spirit to him, saying he had seen him under the fig tree;
'Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel”?How did he know this showed he was the Son of God?
Same way as Peter, revelation from the Father.Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 25 2006,01:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2006,22:50) Hi,
Why did Nathaniel say to Jesus in Jn 1,49 after Jesus had shown his Gift of the Spirit to him, saying he had seen him under the fig tree;
'Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel”?How did he know this showed he was the Son of God?
Same way as Peter, revelation from the Father.
Hi Malcolm,
Sorry.I will rephrase that. How did he know that the Son of God would be the one who would show miracles by the Spirit? Are we missing something the Jews know?
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 25 2006,00:59) Easy to criticize bible versions, explain where the Kingdom of Heaven is. Jesus spoke about the Kingdom of Heaven in terms of it being not some place geographically distant from where we are right now. He preached that the Kingdom of God was at hand, in their midst, indeed within us.
Jesus clearly states in the gospels that His Father dwells in him, that he is not alone, that his witness is not the witness of one but of two.
He does not say that the spirit of his Father is in him, he says his Father is in him.JOHN 14:9-10
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.JOHN 8:16-19
And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.The declaration of the Father was in His son, God in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
Hi Malcolm,
I don't disguise my frustration with Olde Worlde KJV. It is because it is able to be misunderstood unless compared with other versions and is a favourite of cults who wish to use that confusion to have power over ignorant ordinary folk.Any way I do not understand what you are getting at as I agree with what you say.
Unless you are implying that God, who cannot be contained in the highest heaven, had left heaven to be fully and only present in the body of a man, Jesus, in Israel?
Surely not?
HEBREWS 4:12-13
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
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