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No David. You have made the Assertion that all 43 instance refer exclusively to the Father, and you wrote that you would prove this to me:
From pg 15 of this thread:
Quote Also, can you prove to me beyond all doubt that in all 43 instances where “Almighty” is applied to God that it refers exclusively to The Father? Yes.
So the onus is on you to do this David.
Blessings
Quote No David. You have made the Assertion that all 43 instance refer exclusively to the Father, and you wrote that you would prove this to me: From pg 15 of this thread:
Quote
Also, can you prove to me beyond all doubt that in all 43 instances where “Almighty” is applied to God that it refers exclusively to The Father?Yes.
So the onus is on you to do this David.
BlessingsYou are very WRONG Is 1:18. I did not write that I “would” prove it to you, as you say. I wrote that I could. “Can you prove….” My answer: “yes.”
But I feel no more inclined to prove it to you than you feel inclined to disprove it to me, or to even prove that one of them referrs to Jesus. It seems your task is much easier, as all you have to do is find one of those scriptures that you can make appear to look like it may apply to Jesus.
A “Jesus is almighty” scripture no more exists than Santa clause Is 1:18.
It's very hard to prove that Santa doesn't exist. Yet, I have never seen him. And nor have I seen a scripture that says “the almighty Jesus.”The onus is really on you Is 1:18. If Santa is real show me. I can't prove he isn't there.
I know there are scriptures that speak of Jehovah as being Almighty. It's undeniable.
But Jesus being Almighty, such a scripture does not really exist.Quote Hi,
If Jesus is Almighty God then there is no trinity. There are two Almighty Gods.
I'm sure they reason that if one is almighty, they all must be almighty (despite the fact that the holy spirit is never referred to as such, or Jesus).
The trinity teaches that all are equal. Yet, being almighty would tend to mean you have more power than someone who is only ever described as “mighty.”We know Jehovah God, the Father is Almighty. It is undeniable.
The number of times the holy spirit or Jesus are spoken of as being “almighty,” do not match Jehovah.
Of course, it is God's “holy spirit,” His active force and hence, there is no limit on God's holy spirit. In these scriptures God's “spirit” is paralleled with God's “finger.” (Mt 12:28 with Lu 11:20)Hi David, hope you're well
I don't really want a semantic argument with you over this so i'm not going to dwell on it, other than to say that if you are going to insist on asserting that all 43 reference refer exclusively to The Father, I am going to continue insisting that you back this up with proof. You said you “can” do this David, and anyone would take that to mean that you will do it. After all if I ask my wife “can you go to the shop and get me a paper” I would not be asking her if it's possible for her to do this task, I would be asking her (nicely, of course) to do it for me.As for 'Mightly God' – it's a title that's directly applied to YHWH, David, so on what basis could you possibly argue that it denotes a lesser diety? There isn't one. You would, by default, be enforcing a clear double standard. Surely you can see this??
Blessings my friend.
Quote As for 'Mightly God' – it's a title that's directly applied to YHWH, David, so on what basis could you possibly argue that it denotes a lesser diety? There isn't one. You would, by default, be enforcing a clear double standard. Surely you can see this?? What I do know is that the word “mighty” and “almighty” are different. To simplify this, one means you have power, the other means you have unlimited power. There is a difference.
The question Is 1:18: Does someone with unlimited power have power?
Does someone with unlimited power (an almighty one) have power (might)?Obviously yes. Obviously, YES.
So someone (Jehovah) who is almighty can also be called mighty, surely. By definition, someone who is almighty is “mighty.”If I said that being called “mighty God” denotes lesser diety (which I don't think I did, because I rarely use the word “deity,” then I'm sorry. I made a mistake.) I wasn't clear enough.
I'll clarify, even though I'm sure I've already clarified.
Being called mighty God as opposed to being called almighty God does denote lesser might (strength, power, etc), if the one called mighty God is never called almighty God.Imagine someone who is called a wise professor. We know they are also a teacher and if called a teacher sometimes, we understand it, or at least I understand it. They are not just a teacher but a professor.
Imagine someone else who is only called a teacher.
Is one above the other in terms of education?Here, someone could call the professor a teacher. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE PROFESSOR IS ANY LESS EXPERIENCED BECAUSE OF THIS, because WE HAPPEN TO KNOW he is also called a professor. But if we didn't know he was a professor and we saw people calling him a teacher, we would think he was less qualified, wouldn't we? Because a teacher is less qualified than a professor.
In manderin chinese, I learned how to say: “I am a holy classic book teacher.”
I also learned how to substite the word “teacher” for “professor,” or literally, “old master.”
teacher is pronounced: lo shur.
professor is pronounced dow shur.
When someone my age attempts to tell a chinese person that they are an “old master,” they sort of just laugh at you. There is a difference.And there is a difference between “almighty” and “mighty.”
One denotes one thing. Another denotes that same thing to an unlimited degree.Quote Hi David, hope you're well
I don't really want a semantic argument with you over this so i'm not going to dwell on it, other than to say that if you are going to insist on asserting that all 43 reference refer exclusively to The Father, I am going to continue insisting that you back this up with proof. You said you “can” do this David, and anyone would take that to mean that you will do it. After all if I ask my wife “can you go to the shop and get me a paper” I would not be asking her if it's possible for her to do this task, I would be asking her (nicely, of course) to do it for me.I am well. Thanks for asking. Or in manderin, 'hung how' I can't spell.
Your example is biased in your favor. The word “can” has a lot of shades.
Is 1:18. Can you do 5 push ups right now?
Can you?
I would like an answer.
Of course you can, I hope. Will you? No.Just show me which scripture you think is referring to Jesus as being “almighty.”
In the “Satan” thread, moments ago, I cut and pasted every scripture that has the word “Satan” or “devil” in it and posted it. I can do the same with “Almighty.” Will I? No.Is 1:18: “are all ravens black?”
david: “yes, of course.”
Is 1:18: “can you prove it.”
david: “yes.”
Is 1:18: “ok, show me every raven.”
david: “if you think all ravens aren't black, wouldn't the burden of proof be on you to find just one raven that isn't black.”
Is 1:18: “No. you said you would prove it, so prove it.”
david: “um. No.”
Is 1:18: “The burden is on you.”
david: “um. No.”Hi Is 1:18. That was a little skit I just put together. I hope you enjoyed it. Do you see what I'm saying? Obviously you believe that at least one of those 43 verses apply to Jesus. Show me a non-black raven, and we'll have a look see.
david
Hi,
Revelation speaks of beings in terms of life.
YHWH means
“I am Who am”
Rev 4.8
“..and day and night they do not cease to say
'Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God, the Almighty,
Who was and
Who is and
Who is to come”Does anyone doubt that the being on the heavenly throne is God, who is the Father?
So
Rev 1.18
“I am the Alpha and the Omega'
says the Lord God
'Who is, and
Who was, and
Who is to come, the Almighty'”Seems like the same Being, God Himself.
Then there is in Rev 1.18
“Do not be afraid ; I am the first and the last, and the living one;and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and Hades”God never died. God was, and is and is to come, but God never died. Jesus is LIFE.This is Jesus.
Rev 2.8
“..The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:”
Again Jesus.But
Rev 17.8
“The beast you saw
Was, and
Is not, and
Is about to come up from the abyss, and
go to destruction.
And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast,
that he was
and is not
and will come”This is Satan. He is shown in Rev 20 to be bound and thrown in the abyss for 1000 years after which time he will be released again for a short time[and then cast into the lake of fire[v10]
Rev 17.11
” The beast which was, and is not , is himself an eighth[king], and is one of the seven[kings]and he goes on to destruction”
Again Satan.He he…like I said David i'm not really interested in having a semantic argument with you over this- oops too late.
Okay David, we'll take your percieved connotation of “can” then. You said you “can” prove this to me, so you obviously believe it is possible to do this. Why are you now so reluctant to do it? Either you back yourself or you don't.
If you think you can do it, then do it. If you've changed you mind, can we drop this please?
Blessings
BTW, I'm glad you're well. It's good to hear that.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2006,08:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2006,07:57) The Spirit of God Himself is higher than Yeshua .
John 16:7 & 14
7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.….14“He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Hi Is 1.18,
Jn 16.7,
agrees with Jn 7.39 that the Spirit of Jesus was not given till he was again in heaven and that joins the head with the rest of the body uniting heaven with earth.We sit on the throne with him, in him, [Coll 3.1-3]and he is among us.
Jn 16.13f
“But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify me ;for he shall take of miine, and shall disclose to you. All things that the Father has are mine; therefore I said he takes of mine, and will disclose it to you”
compare
Jn Jn 14.26
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you”So Jesus is the Word of God.
His words are spirit and life[Jn 6].The Spirit of Christ will teach each of us from within[1Jn 2.27] about the future and about everything but only according to Christ's words, the Word of God, spoken through prophets and apostles throughout the bible. The Spirit will remind us of the Word of God.
God glorifies His Son by submitting to him in this matter and only letting His Spirit teach according to these words. The Spirit does not teach outside of what is already written.
We can thus check ourselves and our “inspirations” that they accord with the Word of God to know it is that Spirit that is teaching us and leading us.
Quote Okay David, we'll take your percieved connotation of “can” then. You said you “can” prove this to me, so you obviously believe it is possible to do this. Why are you now so reluctant to do it? Either you back yourself or you don't. If you think you can do it, then do it. If you've changed you mind, can we drop this please?
Is 1:18, Unless you can show me just one scripture where Jesus is referred to as “Almighty,” then I will consider it dropped. Until that point in time, I am confident that all the sciptures I have read with “almighty” in them refer to Jehovah. And I have checked them twice since we began this discussion. They haven't changed.
(As a side point, not related at all, something I've been wondering about for a while–Is 1:18, and others, how do you do your research? What tools do you use? If you wanted to know where each instance of the word “almighty” occurs in the Bible, where do you go for that?)
IS JESUS ALMIGHTY?
The Hebrew word Shad·dai´ and the Greek word Pan·to·kra´tor are both translated “Almighty.”
Both original-language words are repeatedly applied to Jehovah, the Father. (Ex. 6:3; Rev. 19:6)
So, NICK, what do YOU think about the fact that neither of these expressions is ever applied to either the Son or the holy spirit?
Hi david,
If men understood Who Almighty God is they would not need to scurry from one verse to another trying desperately, in defence of a human doctrine, to prove He is His own Son.Hi,
1Tim 3.15f
“but in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the Household of God, which is the church of the Living God, the pillar and support of the truth. And by common confession, great is the mystery of godliness
'He* who was revealed in the flesh,
was vindicated in the Spirit, beheld by angels
proclaimed among the nations
believed on in the world
taken up in glory'”
[*some manuscripts say “God”]So the divine Son, or God who was with God in the beginning, was not created at birth but revealed in flesh then. He was proven and declared to be the Son of God, the Christ, by the works of the Spirit done through him. As flesh he was now visible to the angels. His gospel was preached and he was taken up again to heaven.
God was manifest in the flesh
How?
The Word was made flesh and dewlt amonst us
and we beheld his glory the glory as of the only begotten of the Father
full of Grace and Truth.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
Jesus declared the Father, came in his Father's name and confessed he could do nothing but what the Father showed him, and that his words were according to what he heard from His Father.Quote (david @ May 23 2006,23:21) Is 1:18, Unless you can show me just one scripture where Jesus is referred to as “Almighty,” then I will consider it dropped. Until that point in time, I am confident that all the sciptures I have read with “almighty” in them refer to Jehovah. And I have checked them twice since we began this discussion. They haven't changed.
Hi David,
Lets review.On May 21 2006, 01:34, you made this assertion:
Quote One (Jesus) is only ever described as mighty, a word which can apply to humans.
The other is referred to as “Almighty” 43 times.On May 21 2006,01:54, I replied:
Quote Whether or not 'mighty' can be applied to men, angels or any other being is not the point. Manifestly it can, and is. What is in contention, David, is the designation “Mighty God” (Gibbor El). If this is applied to YHWH, how can it possibly denote a lesser category of being? Obviously it can't. So your premise that “There is a grand difference between being “mighty” and being “almighty” is invalid. Also, can you prove to me beyond all doubt that in all 43 instances where “Almighty” is applied to God that it refers exclusively to The Father?
On May 21 2006,02:10, you replied:
Quote Yes.
You made the assertion “One (Jesus) is only ever described as mighty…..”. I asked you to back it up with proof. Regardless of the percieved intimation of my request recieved, the fact remains YOU WROTE YOU COULD PROVE IT! So, given this, you need to do this if you want your statement to carry any weight David. It's vacuous to make an assertion like this and then steadfastly refuse to supply any proof. It's also evident from our exchange that I never made an assertion of an antithetical nature, therefore can't be expected to prove anything to you. Your assertion – the onus is on you.You also made this assertion:
Quote But being called “almighty” denotes that Jehovah isn't limited in his might, whereas someone that is mighty, is.
The onus is on you again to back this statement up too. You have claimed that there is “a grand difference between being Almighty and mighty”. Really?Isaiah 10:20-21
“Now it will come about in that day that the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. 21A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.”Jer. 32:18
“who showest lovingkindness to thousands, but repayest the iniquity of fathers into the bosom of their children after them, O great and mighty God. the LORD of hosts is His name.”I can't see how anyone could deny that 'el gibbor' is used by YHWH in these verses to make an emphatic statement of Deity. He clearly isn't using this appelative to emphasis a lower grade of Deity, is He? But when 'el gibbor' is applied to Yahshua, in Isa 9:6, you argue that this is the implication. That IS a clear double standard David. It's undeniable.
Quote (As a side point, not related at all, something I've been wondering about for a while–Is 1:18, and others, how do you do your research? What tools do you use? If you wanted to know where each instance of the word “almighty” occurs in the Bible, where do you go for that?)
The best tool I can recommend is the Holy Spirit.Blessings David.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 24 2006,01:32) God was manifest in the flesh
How?
The Word was made flesh and dewlt amonst us
and we beheld his glory the glory as of the only begotten of the Father
full of Grace and Truth.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
Jesus declared the Father, came in his Father's name and confessed he could do nothing but what the Father showed him, and that his words were according to what he heard from His Father.
Hi Malcolm,
The Word who was God, and with God in the beginning, not God Himself, was manifest in the flesh.
He also was a vessel for the Father as Spirit.Jesus is the son of God – a son is of the same substance and nature as his father.
God is Word. Jesus is Word
God is Light Jesus is Light
God is Truth – Jesus is Truth
God is Life – Jesus is LifeHi Rudy,
I have enjoyed reading what you have written – you have great clarity of thought and it comes through in your posts.A question for you: what do you make of Romans 10:13 (cf. Acts 2:21 and Joel 2:32)?
Interested in your thoughts…
Blessings
Hi Is 1:18,
You write:Quote It's also evident from our exchange that I never made an assertion of an antithetical nature, therefore can't be expected to prove anything to you.
You didn't make such a claim because you can't prove it. All you have to do is find one scripture that says Jesus is Almighty. That's it, just one. And since you seem to really want to prove this, as you continue to have this conversation with me, your refusal to find one and only one scripture would seem to strongly suggest you can't. To those listening, I can't help believe they must wonder why you don't do so. I “can” prove it to you. I would rather prove it to the others who read this forum.
I think your inability to provide a scripture that calls Jesus “almighty” has served the purpose. And I thus am about to consider this conversation closed.Quote Your assertion – the onus is on you.
While I assert one thing, you assert the opposite, in that you are constantly disagreeing with me. Your silence speaks for itself. All you needed was one scripture.Quote You also made this assertion:
Quote
But being called “almighty” denotes that Jehovah isn't limited in his might, whereas someone that is mighty, is.The onus is on you again to back this statement up too.
Shame on you Is 1:18. You must have read my posts. You must have heard me correct this statement and clarify what I said 3 OR 4 TIMES. Yet, you have repeated this statment of mine 3 or 4 times.
Quote You also made this assertion:
Quote
But being called “almighty” denotes that Jehovah isn't limited in his might, whereas someone that is mighty, is.The onus is on you again to back this statement up too. You have claimed that there is “a grand difference between being Almighty and mighty”. Really?
Isaiah 10:20-21
“Now it will come about in that day that the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. 21A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.”Jer. 32:18
“who showest lovingkindness to thousands, but repayest the iniquity of fathers into the bosom of their children after them, O great and mighty God. the LORD of hosts is His name.”Your reasoning is completely completely false. I know you understand the illustration of the professor and teacher. When I said what I did, I expected you to know that it was with the exception of someone who also happens to be called “almighty.”
Obviously, “almighty” denotes more strenght or power than “mighty.” Obviously. My words which you cling to and which I've clarified 3 or 4 times now are these:
“But being called “almighty” denotes that Jehovah isn't limited in his might, whereas someone that is [only called] mighty, is.”
Those added words, “only called” I thought were understood. Again, I'M SORRY FOR LEAVING THEM OUT.
Yes, Jehovah is called mighty, but he is also called “almighty.” If someone is only referred to as “mighty,” obviously he doesn't have as much….might, as someone who is almighty. Every dictionary will tell you this.Quote I can't see how anyone could deny that 'el gibbor' is used by YHWH in these verses to make an emphatic statement of Deity. He clearly isn't using this appelative to emphasis a lower grade of Deity, is He?
I never meant for you to believe that that is what I was saying. And I have 3 or 4 times attempted to correct your thinking on this. Perhaps you're not reading my posts.Quote Quote
(As a side point, not related at all, something I've been wondering about for a while–Is 1:18, and others, how do you do your research? What tools do you use? If you wanted to know where each instance of the word “almighty” occurs in the Bible, where do you go for that?)The best tool I can recommend is the Holy Spirit.
Would you like me to list the scriptures that have “almighty” in them for you Is 1:18?
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 24 2006,03:16) Jesus is the son of God – a son is of the same substance and nature as his father.
God is Word. Jesus is Word
God is Light Jesus is Light
God is Truth – Jesus is Truth
God is Life – Jesus is Life
Hi Malcolm,
Is the expressed thought and plan of a Spirit God as the Living Word the same in substance? Who knows as we do not understand the substance of God.That begotten new being had independant thought and will of his own such that, after all life had been created through him, he was able to consider, but reject seeking equality with God as shown in Phil 2.5-6
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