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Andrew, you should read what the scripture says, not what you WANT it to say.
Where does the text you wrote say that the father reveals the son?
Nowhere. It only says that the son reveals the father…which is EXACTLY what Jesus came to do: reveal who GOD IS… To give the Jews THE TESTAMENT FROM GOD (‘I do only what I see my father do – I say only what he taught me to say!’, see other references to ‘Salvation of the Jews’)
As for God not giving his glory to anyone else, you must stop going off on tangents. THE ONE GOD OF THE JEWS tells the people of his favoured nation, Israel, that he is their ONLY GOD… There is NONE OTHER LIKE HIM… He, alone, is their creator and only to him should sacred worship be given.
Why does Yahweh God (‘the LORD’ God) say these things to them??
The Israelites nation was surrounded and often lived (enslaved by) nations that believed in multiple deities as their Gods. These Gods controlled or were responsible for varying or specific aspects of the visible world – a God of rain, of harvest, of night, of the sun, of conception and birth, etc. Each deity was to be worshipped and given glory appropriate to their RANK… (Yes, trinitarians borrowed this aspect from pagan belief when they couldn’t explain how Jesus is God but not the same as God, indeed, I’d the three Trinity Gods are all the SAME why is there a need for THREE OF THEM!!?)
Yahweh stresses to his people that they are to believe only in HIM as their God, that he, and he alone created, that ONLY TO HIM should glory be given, ABD that HIS GLORY will not be given to (an)other God(s): What he did he will not see glorified in another.
Andrew, you, as a Kindergarten teacher , created a wonderful classroom scenario for your pupils. Later, other classes and teachers use your room and claim each is their creator. After a few years you move up to be Principal and your old pupils start hearing of other pupils’ teachers staking a claim on your work and even some of your pupils start believing the other classes. Would you not be indignant and say, ‘This is the works of my hands.. I will not see my glory given to another – I will not share my glory with another!’
Andrew, the verse you state is not speaking about the glory given to the son. It is about the Israelites abstaining from giving worship to pagan deities.
Jael, you asked Andrew this:
Andrew, you should read what the scripture says, not what you WANT it to say.
Where does the text you wrote say that the father reveals the son?
Nowhere. It only says that the son reveals the father…
I assume that Andrew can handle this himself but since this is an open discussion, I am willing to help you also with this, Jael especially since it will take almost no time at all. Here is a scripture that clearly shows that God reveals His Son, albeit in a different scriptural passage:
Revelation 1:1
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
P.S. God reveals the Son as the Lord of lords and the one, who, with Himself, receives blessing, honor, glory and dominion forever and ever from EVERY CREATED THING. Read just a few of the things that God has revealed regarding His Son:
13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
Revelation 19 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
Jesus, who is in unity with the Father, is the Lamb who is being spoken about here, btw. I could also show you that God reveals who Jesus is when He declares that Jesus is His own Son with whom He is well pleased but I have in the past. If you need a reminder, or claim that isn’t so, just let me know and I will be happy to clear that up for you. I hope that helps!
Now, as the scripture above says, “Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near,” I hope for you, and all of us here at HN to be among the “blessed.”
Side note, before you start claiming that we can’t use the word “God” like a name, you might want to check out this page and realize that every translation on it uses the word “God” as a name. http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-1.htm
You wrote:
In these verses we see it’s the Father who reveals the Son,and the Son who reveals the Father so this shows their unity and interdependence. Jesus also says no man comes to the Father but by me,and no man can come to me except the Father draw him,I and the Father are one,if you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father.We can thank the Father for the Son and thank the Son for the Father,so in this sense they are equally divine. If we can’t have one without the other then they are certainly joined at the hip in terms of Christian salvation. So what God hath joined together let not man put asunder,but if it’s only man that hath joined them together then let God put them asunder.
Amen brother! Be blessed!!
You, Jael, as a son of your earthly father, were subordinate to him while he was raising you. However, during that time and also now, you have both been equally human have you not?
Oh, so Jesus grows up and becomes part of God himself, another god equal to the Most High,or perhaps even better than God. What a joke all these false doctrines about God are.
Clearly there is not one God the Father for you and clearly you disagree with Jesus as to who the only God is.
So you can see why no one believes your testimony. Who in their right mind is going to believe you over Jesus? I would quit now if I were you. You are wasting your life on this one.
Just meditate on the perfect, eternal unity of the Father and the Son with an open mind.
Just meditate on the perfect, unity of the Father, the Son, and the sons with an open mind. You will see that of the three in unity, the Father is God.
Your arguments about unity fails to include those that belong to God and you need to do this because otherwise it exposes your false teaching. Those that try to make men break even the least of the commandments will at best be least in the kingdom. At worst, they may be shut out of the kingdom.
Lu is getting desperate and can only repeat the same false theme – cannot move forward as there is no support for her theory.
‘God is not a man’…that you should equate human fatherhood with the Spirit of God as Father.
LU, you start off on a false premise (typical of a trinitarian or JiG) and then stake a claim on that false premise.
A “SON OF GOD” is “ANYONE WHO DOES THE WORKS OF GOD”… Jesus, is the ONLY PERSON who fully does that – therefore scriptures describes him as “THE (ONLY) SON OF GOD”.
You will needlessly be acquainted with the scriptures in which Mary the virgin is told by the Angel Gabriel that the son to be born from the overshadowing of her by te Holy Spirit WILL BE HOLY – Son of God”. Lu, ‘BORN FROM THE OVERSHADOWING’ of the Holy Spirit… thisis akin to God blowing the breath of life into the lifeless body of Adam, THE FIRST MAN… and Jesus…THE SECOND ADAM….
If Jesus is ‘Son of God’ then Adam was ALSO ‘Son of God’ – Yes, until he fell to sin. You present false scriptures as your ‘proof’ and ignore absolute true scriptures – Luke writes absolutely, “…Adam, Son of God”, but you ignore that and scour the rest of the scriptures to dredge up verses which you then despoil the meaning to make your claims.
I see you even misrepresent Rev 1:1… oh the desperation. Lu, STOP NOW….
Jesus REVEALS THE FATHER…that was one of the purposes of his coming. You try to claim that ‘God hid Jesus and then REVEALED HIM’… There is no scriptures tat says that…
Rev 1 says that “GOD GAVE JESUS A REVELATION” (“The revelation of Jesus Christ THAT GOD GAVE HIM…”)
Lu, do you see how desperation has driven you to misrepresent the very words given to man by God through Jesus Christ….. LU, STOP NOW.
God certainly ‘REVEALS’ his plans – and one of those plans was ‘A SAVIOUR’… ‘In the fullness of time God…’ revealed that Saviour in the form of a human child who would prove himself after being tested – a hero, a saviour, a winner… is not so UNTIL he has performed the act.
Jesus was ‘DECLARED AS SON OF GOD” when he was raised from the dead…. when he had PERFORMED ALL the heroic deeds God requested of him.
@t8
There are those who are in the unity of God, i.e, the Father, Son, and their Holy Spirit…and there are those who are in unity because of their common faith IN the unity of God. All will take their part within the kingdom of God. There will be the unity of worshipers in the kingdom of God and there will be the unity of God which is the recipient of that worship.
t8, do you understand that you will not be someone who is worshiped in the kingdom of God?
Revelation 5
13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
Dear responders, please remember that the purpose of this thread is to explore the false claim that “A/the Son is equal to his/the Father”.
Where did this false claim come from? The only reference is a SUSPICIOUS ADDITION bit of text in the gospel of John that implied that “The Son” was equal to “GOD”…and therefore “WAS GOD”….
Please please please can you see that the claim actually makes NO SENSE AT ALL.
There is NEVER any reason to claim that “Something is EQUAL to SOMETHING ELSE and therefore IS THAT THING THAT IT IS EQUAL TO”.
John 10:33 – is a very good example of Jesus arguing with the Jews who clearly misrepresent Jesus’ words. Jesus goes to pains to defend himself against the false claims BUT EVEN THIS doesn’t stop trini’s and JiG’s saying Jesus was lying in denying the claims of the Jews. It is amazing (actually, NOT) that such plain words of Jesus are discredited. Even learned men of worldly renown are misled by Satan here… Jesus even states that God called men “GODS” where nowhere in scriptures is Jesus called “God” but yet trini’s and JiG’s ignore this glorification and search fruitlessly for Jesus being called ‘God’. When nothing is found they manufacture false evidence and change the wording and meaning of anything that even seems like it says so…. here, in John, they actually claim that Jesus was AFFIRMING to the Jews that he was calling himself ‘God’…. heweee…!
However, it is clear that not only was Jesus DENYING calling himsefl ‘God’ or ‘Equal to God’ (“I said only that I was THE SON OF GOD”) but he DEFINED what it was to be ‘Son of God’:
- “35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me. 38But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves”
“Doing the works of the [God the] Father” – this is THE DEFINITION of “Son of God”.
p.s. Lu,
When was Jesus ‘Set apart’ and then ‘Sent into the world’…
How, scripturally, is someone ‘Set apart’?
you said:
God is not a man’…that you should equate human fatherhood with the Spirit of God as Father.
Do human fathers have eternal sons within them? No. I am not equating the fatherhood of God to human fatherhood at all. Think…
Regarding Jesus as the second Adam…simply put…the One through whom the first Adam was created became part of His own creation in order to redeem mankind and restore the fellowship between that creation and its creator. That truth is beyond overwhelming and truly you are missing the magnificence of it all, sorry to say.
Jael,
You should really follow your own advice and quit reading your strange ideas into the bible and your false accusations into others posts.
Like when John says begotten it really says adopted,or have you changed your mind on that? or God is a title and not a person? when the bible mentions God it’s most usually referring to the Supreme Being which is a person unless you’d like to think he’s just an impersonal ethereal substance. And no we won’t all bow to your delusions and religious quirks Pope Jael,because you’re” wrong,wrong,wrong” to quote you.
When it says in Matt 11:25 no man knows the Son but the Father is this to say that he won’t reveal him? And when it says previous thou hast revealed these things unto babes? I do think in this text the things revealed apply to what follows and the parallel in Luke 10 bears that out. And we see it especially in Matt 16 Peter’s confession of “thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God” and Jesus response of “flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you but my Father in heaven”. And in my previous post I brought out Jn 6 as well.
But strictly speaking in Matt 11:25 it doesn’t say the Father reveals the Son but certainly implies he will and later in Matt he does.And as far as the gospel of Matt he’s actually revealed by the Father as Son of God before at birth and baptism but as far as the plot at the point of Matt 11 the disciples didn’t know yet.
And as for Is.42 I understand the historical context of it but only brought it up since some are strict about that and think this rules out Jesus sharing his glory and I think if we are strict about it it does.I don’t see this as a tangent but as directly applying to our topic since some of your ilk claim other Christians make an idol of Jesus. But if the NT is to be believed at all then it’s God who makes an idol of Jesus because he certainly gives his glory to another.
LU, you said this:
“Regarding Jesus as the second Adam…simply put…the One through whom the first Adam was created became part of His own creation in order to redeem mankind and restore the fellowship between that creation and its creator. That truth is beyond overwhelming and truly you are missing the magnificence of it all, sorry to say.”
Lu, you know that this is complete fabrication.
You are advocating that your fictitious ‘Spirit Jesus’, who ‘created all things’ but DIDN’T create all things but had all things ‘CREATED THROUGH HIM’ (you say), and is therefore part (??!) of who the ruling deity (The God) of the Jews was, became, contrary to his own ‘IMMUTABLE’ Being, a Flesh and Blood and Bone human Being.
Lu, it is absolutely clear you just made that up. Mind you, I have noticed that you are getting more and more desperate in attempting to uphold your false ideology – so it is not surprising that you should need to fabricate this aspect also.
Do you read scriptures that says that God would raise up a saviour in the likeness of Moses (Who was to save his people)? How does ‘Raising up a saviour’ equate to ‘Doing the impossible and splitting an inseparable tri-God such that one part becomes part of what he created …’
(LU, did you get the idea from the film, ‘Tron’?)
Lu, are you saying Jesus created mankind?
Lu, you do know that one of the definitions of ‘Father’ is, ‘Who who creates, He who brings into being… Brings forth, etc’. Is Jesus ever called ‘Father’? (I’m not speaking of ‘Everlasting Father’ from Isaiah. That refers to the after-judgement when Jesus gives ‘Everlasting life’ to those whom he judges worthy at the judgement seat)… Why is YAHWEH, the only one who is called ‘Father’ (‘Call no man, Father. God in heaven is your only Father’… context involved, of course!)
Andrew, I understand your problem… You have comprehension issues, specifically: lack off.
You want to try to say that LU is right but you cannot see where she is so you try to read into scriptures that which is not there.
Sorry, mate, but you don’t make any sense when you post confused explanations of non-existent reasoning.
you asked:
Lu, are you saying Jesus created mankind?
The unity of God made mankind of which the Father, Son and their Spirit are part of.
Genesis 1 25God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.…
1 John 5 …whatever the Father does the Son also does
LU, you said that scriptures says the son does whatever the Father does.
And this is your answer to ‘Did Jesus create man’!
Lu, look at your answer – read it again… I’ll give you a few minutes,,,..,,.,,,,,…,,,
ok, did you see the delusion?
No? Really? Oh yes you did… You just cannot understand how you write such nonsesnse,.,
Lu, I’ll say it for you.
Your response implies that FIRST the Father created man – and THEN the son did what the Father did – ALSO – created man (as well or AGAIN)!!
The son can only do what he sees the Father do. The son sees what the Father does and then he does likewise.
But in any case, [the] GOD [of the jews] was talking to THE ANGELS.
God said to them, ‘Let us make man in our image…’ And God made man in HIS image…
Do you see a problem if he was a tri-person being? Of course, ‘God’, YOU say, is ‘Father and Son’ (Trinity says ‘Father, Son AND Holy Spirit’). So if ‘YOUR GOD’ made man in his image then man should be BOTH ‘Father AND Son’ (Trinity God would create TRINITY man).
Oh dear, LU, I know plenty of ‘Sons’ who are not also ‘Fathers’. And I know plenty of ‘Fathers’ who don’t have ‘Sons’.
But really, LU, ‘Image of God, In ‘Their Image’, In THEIR LIKENESS’ has NOTHING TO DO WITH ‘Visible Properties’… How on earth or in heaven did you visualise GOD and and offspring that ‘Looks’ like him?
No, LU, ‘Image of God…etc’ means ‘Having the ability to Create, to Rule, a Personal self-awareness, self-controlled Love and Vanity, a Directed Will, forethought and afterthought, planning, desires, Yearnings, …etc’.
The Angels – and the one who came to be known as ‘Satan’, and ‘The Devil’, have all of these attributes.
Now, do not jump up and down and say I said the Angels created man… Scriptures DOES NOT SAY THAT AND NEITHER DO I… I say that GOD SAID TO THEM that is what ‘the ROYAL WE’ should do.
Then GOD DID IT. GOD CREATE THE BODY OF A MAN AND GAVE THAT MA (limited level of his) ATTRIBUTES. Man is FLESH and LIMITED TO THE PHYSICAL WORKD THAT GOD CREATED therefore the WHOLE of Gods attributes as of the Angels too, could not be contained in that flesh being – the FULLNESS of the SPIRIT in man is CONSTRAINED by the flesh of his body.
Lu, THE WORD ‘Father’ means, ‘He who creates, He who GIVES LIFE TO, he who BRINGS FORTH’.
This is why THE GOD OF THE JEWS is called, ‘FATHER’. HE brought forth the world and all in it… He created mankind, he GAVE LIFE TO ALL THINGS.
Lu, where, pertaining to this discussion, is Jesus called, ‘Father’?
Colossians 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Hebrews 1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Hebrews 1:
8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”Jesus’ name “Lord” and “LORD” is sufficient to show that He was actively involved in creation. Btw, the JW’s just came back to apologize for not showing up. I wasn’t able to see them today but they took my number and WANT to come back to speak to me. So your assumptions prove false once again.
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