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Like, that does not make any sense at all.
‘They are both God’? So you need to go through the gateway that is God to get to God???
And in any case, where are you getting this unfounded notion that ‘they are both God’?
LU, define ‘GOD’ (I’ve already shown you that ‘God’ is a TITLE but you keep using it as a NAME.)
you asked:
LU, what do you mean by ‘The Father and the son and THEIR HOLY SPIRIT’?
Are there TWO or just ONE Holy Spirit – and – WHOSE HOLY SPIRIT does SCRIPTURES say it is?
The Father has His own spirit, the Son has His own spirit. They are in complete unity as one Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is ever within them and has the potential to omnipresently extend from them. You have heard the phrase “unity of the Spirit?”
Ephesians 4:1Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
I’m so thankful for people like you that prompt me to meditate on the magnificence of the unity of God the Father with His Son, our Lord and their Spirit. It is to the glory of the Father (uncreated) that His Son (also uncreated) participated in creating all things and was given all things that He Himself (the Son) created for the Father; and through their united Holy Spirit, They are able to unite those created beings who have a believing faith.
So, thank you, my young friend, for being one of those who indirectly and inadvertently lead me closer to the understanding of the unity of that which divinely created us and loves us and wants a relationship with us…the Father together with the Son through their Holy Spirit.
you said:
Like, that does not make any sense at all.
‘They are both God’?
My response:
I said that together they are God, not independantly. We do not have two independent Gods. We have one God who is the Father together with His Son and their Holy Spirit. God the Father is not God apart from His Son and their Holy Spirit.
You asked me to define God. Well, I don’t think that myself or anyone can adequately define God but I feel confident to say that ultimately, the title ‘God’ would go to the creator of creation. I believe this creation we exist as part of, was created as a Father and Son ‘team’ who are both uncreated and perfect in all possible ways and united in spirit as well as essence.
LU, you know nothing at all.
If you are ‘worshipping’ a God that you do not know (and you are) then all these discussions are futile as you can never really see the glory they you imagine that you are seeing.
God is ONE… Not a multiple – you make God (THE GOD) into three being (set of) deities just as in Hindu and Egyptian.
My guess is that you a sad romantic for foreign worship but want to keep in the guise of Christian trinity belief.
God is ONE … God is the Father. Jesus is a man just as scriptures says. Scriptures NEVER calls him anything else – ‘Lord’ does not mean ‘God’.. ‘son of God’ does not and cannot mean ‘God’… You try to circumvent the truth by claiming that Together they are God…and yet you cannot define who God is (afraid, more like! The scriptures TELLS US who THE GOD is!!!)
You are a perfect example of a person who sees but cannot see. It is like you see the mountain without the valley. You cannot have one without the other, my friend. Think about it.
Jael, what you said here “God is ONE… Not a multiple…” is true but the “oneness” is an interdependent unity, not an independent singularity nor is it a three being set of deities. The scripture calls them the God of gods and the Lord of lords and they are one.
Peace and blessings to you my young friend.
LU, ‘God of God, Lord of Lords’ is speaking about GOD ALMIGHTY. There is no where where Jesus is mentioned as being ‘God of Gods and Lord of lords’.
I asked you to define ‘God’ and you cannot because you fear what it means… I’m not surprised – it’s stock trinitarian response: ‘Oh dear, if I do then I cannot include Jesus and the holy spirit as also God – best to wheedle my way out AND HOPE HE DOESNT REFER TO SCRIPTURES…!’
Lu, Yahweh says he is the ‘God of all Gods…’ This means that the TITLE of God’ refers to ANYONE who is the ULTIMATE IN THEIR CONTEXTUAL CATEGORY…. And YAHWEH GOD is the ULTIMATE IN ALL CATEGORIES: ‘God of ALL GODS’.
Lu, how can JESYS be ‘ULTIMATE IN ALL CATEGORIES if he is SUBORDINATE TO THE Father?
And likewise the Holy Spirit: IT IS the SPIRIT OF THE FATHER… and therefore subordinate to the Father.
You mentioned earlier, the spirit of Jesus… This is JESUS’ personal spirit…and the apostles were called to REMAIN IN HIS SPIRIT (Be like him!!) The Holy Spirit OF THE FATHER and the Spirit JESUS are NOT the SAME PERSONAL SPIRIT. The UNITY is that of ONE PURPOSE.
Remember that Yahweh ‘Gave HIS spirit TO JESUS for JESUS to give to the Apostles. LU, READ THE SCRIPTURES AND STOP CHERRY PUCKING VERSES.
Jesus STATES in John: 14:16, ‘And I will ASK THE FATHER, and HE WILL GIVE YOU another advocate… (Vs17) the Spirit of truth….’
See also: Joel 2:28-32; (Whose spirit would be poured out?)
Acts 2:1-4; (What did Jesus say would happen at Pentecost?)
Romans 8:11-13 (Whose spirit raised up Jesus?)
In John, at Jesus’ baptism, whose spirit descended on Jesus…? Was it a PERSON or a THING (oh, and it WASNT A DOVE… The Holy Spirit of the Father (oops, I just gave you the answer!!!) descended ‘IN THE MANNER OF A DOVE’… Not ‘AS A DOVE’ as trinitarians love to say!! A light fluttering (breeze) as a dove is want to make when alighting. Witness the difference for the apostles at Pentecost… Now LU, WHICH trinitarian PORTRAYS the Holy Spirit as FORKS OF LIGHTENING …curiously some trinitarian churches call themselves PENTECOSTALS but potent the Holy Spirit AS A DOVE… BUT there WAS NO ‘DOVE’ at Pentecost!!!!)
Luke 24:49, (‘The promise of the Father’… What was that promise? Whose SPIRIT, LU?)
And also, Acts 2:33, (I’ll let you read it yourself)
See, LU, anyone (yoyrself included) who makes a claim that the Holy Spirit is also Jesus’ spirit, is so disingenuous to truth that it is not a wonder that so much more nonsense flows from your mind.
But there is hope, LU. Keep writing to me and I will pray that God opens your eyes through the truth I write to you.
You said:
LU, ‘God of God, Lord of Lords’ is speaking about GOD ALMIGHTY. There is no where where Jesus is mentioned as being ‘God of Gods and Lord of lords’.
My response:
Paul explains that the God of gods and the Lord of Lords is, for us, both, together, the Father AND the Son.
5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
God reveals Yeshua/Jesus as the Lord of lords.
Revelation 17 14“These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
you asked me:
Lu, how can JESUS be ‘ULTIMATE IN ALL CATEGORIES if he is SUBORDINATE TO THE Father?
Within the unity of God there is a level of authority and one is subject to the other because one was brought out of (begotten from) the other as His very own Son. Surely the one who begat would have more authority than the one who was begotten. The perfect Son would certainly be eternally subordinate to His perfect Father otherwise the Son would not be perfect.
you said:
THE FATHER and the Spirit JESUS are NOT the SAME PERSONAL SPIRIT.
My response: I assume you meant to say the Spirit “of” Jesus there and my response will reflect that correction. Correct me if I assumed wrong. The spirit of the Father and the spirit of the Son are NOT the same personal spirit. That is also how I understand it. However, the Holy Spirit is a unity of both of their personal spirits as I understand. It is that united Holy Spirit of which they both were involved in sending as a gift to us, to comfort and guide us, that bears witness to explain the truth of both of them. You cannot have the personal spirit of the Father apart from having the personal spirit of the Son and visa versa. You must have BOTH personal spirits which come to us as one united spirit which we call the Holy Spirit.
Joel 2:28-32
28“It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.29“Even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.The Day of the LORD
30“I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.31“The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.32“And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the LORD has said,
Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.The “I” in the above passage represents the unity of God who is the God of gods and the Lord of lords. You will see in the NT that both of them are involved in the pouring out of the Spirit and that their Spirit includes the spirit of the Father and the spirit of the Son.
Galatians 4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Luke 24:49 “And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,Through the one Holy Spirit, we receive both the testimony about the Son and the testimony about the Father. The Father’s personal spirit testifies about the Son and the Son’s personal spirit testifies about the Father. You cannot receive one without the other.
Jael, your testimony about the Son is that He is adopted. My testimony about the Son is that He is the only natural son of God the Father. Which understanding brings salvation?? Only one can be absolute truth which makes the other understanding a lie.
Which one threatens satan the most?
Which one threatens Islam the most? Answer: The understanding that Yeshua is the only “natural” son of God the Father. Islam does NOT give them BOTH the same glory and honor.
Which one threatens the Orthodox Jews the most? Answer: The understanding that Yeshua is the only “natural” son of God the Father. Orthodox Jews do NOT give them BOTH the same glory and honor.
Which one threatens Christianity the most? Answer: The understanding that Yeshua is NOT the only “natural” son of God the Father but instead is merely adopted. For Christianity gives them BOTH the same glory and honor which is blasphemy if one of them is just a man.
So, realize that your views put you in a popular category but wide is the gate to destruction.
Matt 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
LU, your delusion is most troubling.
The Old Testament verse is not speaking of TWO PERSONS (and if so how does a trinity arise from TWO!!! My goodness, trinitarians really cannot do basic first grade arithmetics!!)
‘God of Gods and Lord of Lords’ is a METAPHOR… What is up with you, LU? It means ‘THE GREATEST’… It is a SINGULAR reference. ‘Holy Moly’, I’ve heard trinitarians claim, ‘Me, myself, and I’ means there are a TRINITY of persons in ‘ME’…, I’ve heard them say that a (married?) man is THREE: ‘Father, Son, husband’… Three persons… Of course that same man could be ‘Grandfather, Uncle, and brother’ but whose counting…trini’s STILL only count One as THREE!
No, LU, Paul is not speaking the metaphor… He is STATING A FACT of HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEF..
But in any case, do you not read in Acts 2:36 that ‘God HAS MADE this Jesus whom you crucified to be both Lord and messiah /Christ’.
Lu (silly argument but…) how was Jesus ‘Lord’ and ‘Christ’ BEFORE ‘God made him’ to be so?
Lu, be careful with your response: do not post back flippantly.as trinitarians would do: Jesus HAD TO BE TESTED before he could be CLAIMED as SAVIOUR. If he HAD NOT PASSED the wilderness test……!!!!
A-N-D…LU, remember that Jesus ALMOST FALTERED while in the garden of gethsemane, ‘-Father…IF THERE COULD HE ANOTHER WAY…!’
The PROOF of the SALVATION BY THE CHRIST was AFTER THE DEED WAS DONE! After Jesus was CRUCIFIED and took on the sins of mankind and DIED, giving his holy blood as a sacrament for the sins of Adam (and mankind)….
Lu, ‘GOD HAS MADE…’. LU, a WINNER is NOT a WINNER until he WINS!!!
Why do you write things to me as if I were supporting the three person/one God doctrine?
LU, your delusion is so deep you do not know what you are writing. It is typical of delusional thinkers to couch their ideology in such a way they can modify it to mean new things as they are found wanting. See, now you realise that you are writing about TWO PERSONS in many of your posts, you suddenly discover that the trinity DOESN’T WORK!!!
“I and my Father are ONE”
“If you see me then you see the Father also”
“I am going to my GOD …. My Father…”
“Do you not know that I must be about my father’s work?”
“I will SEND you the spirit of truth (do you agree this is the Holy Spirit?) FROM my Father”
“Wait in Jerusalem and I will send you THE PROMISE OF (from?) THE FATHER”
….many more…
Lu, the Holy Spirit is THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER…THE SPIRIT OF ALMIGHTY GOD.
Stop right there…!!!!
Lu, the UNITY OF SPIRITS of GOD and HIS CHRIST just means that THEY ARE OF ONE PURPOSE. Jesus DOES ONLY what he sees the Father doing – SPEAKS ONLY what the Father tells him… LU, THIS IS THE PERFECT UNITY.
But, LU, the apostles could not receive the spirit of the Father directly into their sinful hearts – it would destroy them. Witness the effects of that direct injection of the power of God (via Angels) in those prophets of the Old Testament. Only an advocate that limited its power according to their ability would suffice: The spirit of A MAN, wholly and sinless, who knows the frailties of a man: Jesus Christ, The spirit of Jesus Christ.
Lu, this means that God is not expecting us to be PERFECT, as God is perfect. He gives leeway for our humanity, our flesh being, our sinfulness: ‘God cannot look upon sin…’ We are separated from God through our sin… We can see a glimpse of God through The SPIRIT of Jesus.
Lu, you really need to stop making things up. You take verses out of context and timeframe. You quote verses that actually do not even support your claims…
You worship a false image of what you claim is your multi-person God!
LU, God is ONE!
For YOU, ‘There is ONE GOD: the Father AND JESUS Christ – and one Lord: Jesus Christ’?????
For me, ‘There is ONE GOD: THE FATHER, and ONE Lord: Jesus Christ.’
Lu, rightly so that you cannot define ‘GOD’! When you try in your ideology it is confusion beyond imagination. God is ‘a mystery’ to you!
Even when Jesus himself says to ‘Worship the Father’ and that the Father is ‘THE ONLY TRUE GOD’, it still doesn’t mean TRUTH to you!
LU, you said:
Within the unity of God there is a level of authority and one is subject to the other because one was brought out of (begotten from) the other as His very own Son. Surely the one who begat would have more authority than the one who was begotten. The perfect Son would certainly be eternally subordinate to His perfect Father otherwise the Son would not be perfect.
Ha ha ha … Sorry…. Ha ha ha…
Lu, ever heard of the word, ‘OXYMORON’??
‘God has more authority than his son but they are both equal’!!
LU, ‘EQUALITY’ is ‘COMMUTATIVE’ (look it up)
There is NO SUBORDINATION IN GOD.
you said:
Lu, ever heard of the word, ‘OXYMORON’??
‘God has more authority than his son but they are both equal’!!
You, Jael, as a son of your earthly father, were subordinate to him while he was raising you. However, during that time and also now, you have both been equally human have you not??
Lu. ‘God is spirit’
Spirit does not procreate.
You have created your own idolotous belief and now cannot (obviously) string two sentences of worthiness that results in credibility.
As for ‘equality’ of Father and son…as with all your ideologies, you are stumbling badly.
I asked you how the son of God is equal to God and yet subordinate to him. You replied that it is because the son is equally God (equivalently: a human son is equal to his Father by being equally human).
LU…. ‘GOD’ is a TITLE… It is NOT A STATE OF BEING.
Lu, you know, like ‘KING’ or ‘MAJESTY’ or ‘FATHER’….!
LU, The son of [the] King is NOT KING.
LU, please stop using the TITLE, ‘God’, as if it is a PERSON.
Lu, Jesus is ‘The Prince of Peace’. A ‘Prince’ is SUBORDINATE to a KING. Trinity fallacy states that Jesus was WILLINGLY subordinate to Yahweh. LU, Yahweh GAVE Jesus the power and authority – do you not read the scriptures that we are discussing?
‘The things I do are not of myself BUT THE Father working IN ME’;
‘The Father is GREATER THAN I’;
‘I can do ONLY what I see the Father do’;
‘I speak only what the Father taught me to say’.
‘I speak not my own words but of HIM who sent me’,
‘You must WORSHIP the Father alone’,
‘This means life, that they should believe that you, Father, are THE ONLY TRUE GOD’.
…LU, just where in scriptures do you get the ideas for your false ideology?
LU, each time your false ‘God’ is found wanting you attempt to induce another false idea into your ideology.
When are you going to stop and admit that your belief is based on ‘feminine idealism’: Unfounded ideas along the lines of ‘Mary, mother of GOD’.
Just meditate on the perfect, eternal unity of the Father and the Son with an open mind.
You mean, ‘Become deluded’ as you are, LU? No thanks.
You are romancing a dream of Eternal Unity.
Not only does the Christian scriptures never ever speak of any such ‘Eternal’ relationship but you are confused as to what scriptures says at all.
Consider that you cannot respond to how ‘The Son is equal to the Father’ from a scriptural or even Jewish point of view (viz: It is IMPOSSIBLE to make such a claim: That which is created cannot be equal to its creator) because no scripture or Jewish tradition ever makes such a claim.
You quote verses making a strange claim that Jesus created the world and all in it – but the verses immediately backtrack and state that GOD created it all ‘THROUGH’ Jesus, and that it was ‘CREATED FOR HIM’.
Lu, truly, stand back and read what it says… Analyse the words… They are HILARIOUSLY badly screwed up.
Are you serious that ‘Jesus created the world for himself’! But that GOD created it FOR HIM. (Please say ‘yes’, because I know you can’t do otherwise, shame and embarrassment don’t permit the truth for you)
Lu, you know scriptures says that GOD CREATED the world ‘BY MYSELF’ (himself). LU, what did Satan say to Jesus at the temptation in the wilderness regarding the ‘kingdoms of the world’?
Lu, did Satan say he would give them TO JESUS if Jesus worshipped him BECAUSE they were HIS ‘to give to whom I will’?
Lu, if the ‘kingdoms of the world’ belong to Satan… how did they ‘belong’ to Jesus if he was being tempted to acquire them illegally?
Lu, whenever Jesus performed a miracle he FIRST prayed to the Father for POWER AND AUTHORITY … How is that EQUALITY.
Lu, the Father GRANTED Jesus to have the power to judge life and death to believers.
Lu, the Father, God Almighty, Yahweh, spoke the ADOPTION STATEMENT to Jesus, ‘Today you have BECOME MY SON…’ Yet you say he was ETERNALLY son…
Lu, how SILLY is it to say to your EQUAL (as you say), ‘I am well pleased with you’! Do you really say that – WHO WOULD you say that to?
Lu, EQUALITY IS COMMUTATIVE. Is the Father EQUAL to The Son? (No trini or ‘Jesus is God’ (JiG) ever responds – no need to ask why!)
Lu, stop fantasising and romantasising scriptures.
you say things but you don’t realize how you affirm the unity of the Father, Son and their Holy Spirit. Think about it, my young friend. The Son does nothing to completion apart from the Father and likewise, the Father does nothing to completion apart from the Son.
Who made the Father the creator? Answer…The Son who was the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning.
Who made the Father the savior? Answer…The Son who was the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning, whom was manifested in the flesh, crucified in the flesh and rose again putting an end to the sting of death, redeeming the church and will someday present the church as a bride to the Father, His very own Father.
You see cooperation within the perfect unity of God throughout the New Testament.
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
In these verses we see it’s the Father who reveals the Son,and the Son who reveals the Father so this shows their unity and interdependence. Jesus also says no man comes to the Father but by me,and no man can come to me except the Father draw him,I and the Father are one,if you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father.We can thank the Father for the Son and thank the Son for the Father,so in this sense they are equally divine. If we can’t have one without the other then they are certainly joined at the hip in terms of Christian salvation. So what God hath joined together let not man put asunder,but if it’s only man that hath joined them together then let God put them asunder.
The prophet in Isaiah 42:8 declares Jehovah will not give his glory to another,yet throughout the NT we see God give his authority and glory to his Son in various ways so if this be true then the Son must needs be Jehovah/God also.Even as it’s revealed in Jn 12:41 that when Isaiah saw the glory of Jehovah it was the glory of Jesus Christ.Without Jesus Christ whom was sent there is no true God nor eternal life.
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