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I’m curious Jael, do you NOW UNDERSTAND that there is documentation that “today I have begotten you” refers to the resurrection day? And if you now do in fact understand this, do you want to apologize for this incredible insult of yours which I will quote here:
You said:
Lu, can you also explain how you come to believe that psalm 2 is referring to the day Jesus was raised from the dead ….when there is no documentation in scripture regarding this!
Is this your way of trying to defy the truth? See, it doesn’t work – all it does is show that you are being so disingenuous as to apportion scriptures incorrectly in order to maintain your false ideology.
Jael,you can’t see how you plainly stated there was no biblical documentation that Ps 2 referred to the resurrection? and then you accuse LU of being disingenuous based on your own ignorance and blindness. You should come down off your imaginary high horse and apologize to LU.
LU, the verse STATE that it was at his resurrection.
I see you are choosing to IGNORE that part – and rather than stand down you part quote an irrelevant verse which categorically STATES that it referring to WISDOM – a FEMININE engendered reference.
Yes, LU, God possessed WISDOM before he began his creation – wisely so, wouldn’t you say?
LU, why didn’t you quote the first set of verses as well so the CONTEXT of the poem could be established?
Yes, I do apologise for the error (it was probably late and I was rushing!)
In my defence I have written ALWAYS elsewhere at different times that God spoke the ADOPTION STATEMENT to Jesus – so far NO ONE has taken this up but rather they have just ignored a truth which was revealed, strangely, by Andrew, (Hallelujah!). My words to you were meant that you are lying about your claims that Jesus was ‘Begotten from eternity’… Read it again and you will see what I was saying… ‘Lu, now you see the verse DECLARING that God spoke the begotten words to Jesus at his being raised Thomas the dead, does that not show you are despicably wrong about your claims’
Yes, this revelation, AS I WROTE TO Andrew, Absolutely DECLARES that YOU, LU, are incorrect with your ridiculous ideology that Jesus was incubated in God before he was born… as if God gave birth to a spirit son who had always existed in him… LU, do you know how nonsensicle you seem by your idea. But of course, now you see the verse you even now ignore the part that cuts you to the bone…
Explain now how Jesus was ‘Begotten’ from ETERNITY if it was AT HIS BEING RAISED FROM THE DEAD.
Hebrews 1:5.
I am absolutely sure you have read it for yourself.
You choose to ignore it because it speaks against you.
Sorry, LU, but no matter which way you cut it, scriptures says your ideology is not of Yahweh: God the Father but rather a concoction of your own devising.
I am going to try to make this as plain as I can for you.
The Son is BOTH the firstborn over all creation AND the firstborn from the dead.
He became the firstborn over all creation BEFORE all things were created through Him, thus He was begotten from the Father before creation during eternity past.
And much later….
He became the firstborn from the dead on His resurrection day.
Col 1
He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.
16 For everything was created by Him,
in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions
or rulers or authorities—
all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things,
and by Him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church;
He is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead,
so that He might come to have
first place in everything.
19 For God was pleased to have
all His fullness dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile
everything to Himself
by making peace
through the blood of His cross—
whether things on earth or things in heaven.you said:
WISDOM – a FEMININE engendered reference.
My response:
If you knew anything about Hebrew you would know that this concern of yours does not mean that ‘wisdom’ can’t represent a male figure. Go ahead and do a study on how the Hebrew language applies gender to nouns. Educate yourself.
Regarding the full chapter of Prov. 8, there is a shift within the chapter about wisdom. Many scholars can see this. Not everybody has the eyes to see though. Go read what the experts think about that chapter. You will see that I am not alone in my understanding.
Please tell me what cult you are from that believes that Jesus is an adopted son of God.
Thank you! It seems obvious that you and I can see things that Jael can’t.
LU, you have become confused due to desperation.
Jesus BECAME firstborn WHEN God created him as a SINLESS human being. You are thinking ‘PHYSICAL SPIRIT’… You believe wrongfully that God PROCREATED a person from himself….
LU, SPIRIT does not PROCREATE…
LU, GOD is Spirit…
Now you agree through the DECLARATION shown to you in the scriptures that it was AT HIS RESURRECTION that God ADOPTED HIM spiritually as SON – it matters NOT what you say about ‘Begotten’ … I suppose THEN that EVERYONE existed BEFORE ETERNITY since ‘Abraham BEGAT Isaac’, for instance.
LU, why the aimless pointless discussion about the meaning of ‘Begotten’?
You have yet to explain from your strange view how you would have to say Jesus was ALIVE INSIDE GOD FROM ETERNITY and then begotten of him BEFORE ETERNITY and was then BEGOTTEN of him as a baby and then BEGOTTEN of him at his baptism and then BEGOTTEN again after (or AT) his resurrection.
Your linguistic skills are lacking… Your discernment is faulty to say the least. Your ideology is completely false
Quoting scriptures out of trend and in desperation doesn’t count as proof of a cohesive ideology.
You reference a verse claiming Jesus as ‘Firstborn over creation’… Yes, Jesus IS FIRSTBORN OVER CREATION…
God Almighty MADE HIM SO… LU, you claim Jesus is GOD but your eyes are blinded … Jesus was made FIRSTBORN OVER CREATION when God Almighty: Yahweh, outlet one true God raised him from the dead and took him up to sit next to himself and GIVE HIM THE KINGDOM OF OF EARTH TO EVENTUALLY RULE OVER.
You place your sequence the wrong way around – and you know it.
Yes, LU, as you delve more into the BASICS of the scriptures you discovered that your ideology DOES NOT FIT so you change things to suit yourself…
Observe that the verse concerning ‘firstborn over creation’ is actually referring to AFTER he was raised up to heaven.
It is a trinitarian desperation that makes such an aim so as to claim that Jesus was born before creation and then created all things after… Really.. That cannot be because scriptures stated that ‘God the Father created all things’… It says that ‘GOD, by himself, created all things’.
So, LU, who created all things: GOD, Yahweh, or Jesus? Please don’t do that trinitarian twist and say ‘God created through Jesus’ – that is NOT the same as ‘GOD CREATED’ and ‘Jesus created’ ALL THINGS.
Oh, and the Holy Spirit… Did IT CREATE ALL THINGS?
Wow, what a continuing mess you unbelievers make of a straightforward and simple theology: your ideologies only appear to work because you ISOLATE an idea here and there and refer to a scripture that seems to fit that idea… Hey, try fitting ALL THE SCRIPTURES at once .. No it doesn’t fit….
Its like a trinitarian asked to try fitting a set of items into a box… You fit a few items and say ‘Oh good, they fit.’ You remove these and fit in a few different items and say the same. You do this repeatedly and go the requested and say, ‘Yes, they fit’. When the requester comes to pack up themselves they are mystified to find that it is IMPOSSIBLE to do. The trinitarian then says, ‘They do fit… The fact that YOU can’t make them fit is YOUR problem… ITS A MYSTERY that your finite ability cannot get around.’ The reality, of course is that the trinitarian is the one mystified by the disclosure that they are so wrong…so It must be the requester who cannot do the fit… When the TRINI is asked to fit all the items into the box he/she gets ANGRY and runs away.
And ‘YES’, I’ve seen it happen.
LU, regarding Proverbs 8…
Solomon is talking about WISDOM… God asked Solomon what he wanted as a new ruler. Solomon was a young man, unskilled in ruling and managing his father’s great, heroic and wise men – he felt overwhelmed by them. In his distress – and to his benefit – he made a choice that went against what the majority of people in that position would have asked for: WISDOM.
God praised him for this underwhelming (in the situation) choice saying it was the best and because of this he, God, would give him ALL THE OTHERS that the situation might have tempted others to ask for.
Solomon realised the – WISDOM – of asking for wisdom and is here, in chapter 8, expressing how much WISDOM is greater than all other aspects of living.
See that the virtues of WISDOM follow on into chapter 9, and verses 13 – 18 are particularly worth looking at …..!
And again, you quote a verse in Colossians which APPEAR to be claiming that Jesus created the world and everything in it….
LU, this is an old old false verse… Only a desperate person would bring that as evidence.
Read it s-l-o-w-l-y and c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y and you will see there are MANY ERRORS AND DISCREPANCES.
E.g., in one place it says ‘He created’ then in another it says ‘THROUGH HIM’… And again, ‘FOR HIM’…
LU, NO… GOD ALMIGHTY CREATED ‘FOR HIM WHO WOULD BE THE SON’… Yes, it turned out to be JESUS… BUT LU…. What if ADAM HAD NOT SINNED…….!!!!
Adam would have been ‘The Son of God’ who God made ruler over creation.
LU, All that is the fathers goes to the FIRSTBORN SON… ADAM WAS THE FIRSTBORN SON…until he sinned (Genesis 1:26-28)
Oh, by the way… Trinitarian (offset as you are) believe that ‘LIKE GOD’ means ‘IS GOD’… Isn’t that so?
Isnt that what the word, DIVINE, means: ‘LIKE A GOD’…
Well, what does Genesis 3:5 say?
And did they?
And so, were they then ‘GOD’?
‘YES’ to all – and so how many ‘gods’ are there. Or how many PERSONS are in the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD… Ooops, FIVE now….!!!!
Explain that one please!!!
Sorry, I missed out verse 4:22…
‘Behold, the man has become like one of us…’ !!
Ha ha ha… If trinitarians were trying to prove Adam was GOD then this verse would suffice for them – BUT EVEN trinitarians are not THAT daft after all.
Slow down cause you are getting very confused and confusing. You are having a supposed dialogue with me while supplying words as if they were mine but they are not like “procreate” and “incubate” and Jesus as an “adopted son” and “begotten of Him BEFORE eternity,” etc., etc.. Come out of your world of confusion young man. Ask me one question at a time in the discussion thread that I made for a one on one discussion with me because you are getting all mixed up in this topic.
Do you claim to be a Christian? What is the name of your church and where can I read their statement of faith. I can’t even think of a Christian denomination that would agree with what you are teaching. Is there a denomination that you belong to that teaches that Jesus is an adopted son from the day of resurrection and not a son or even an adopted son beforehand? Is there a denomination that you belong to that teaches that Adam is a firstborn as opposed to a first created?? Is there a denomination that you belong to that teaches that the Holy Spirit does not ever go by male pronouns?? Is there a denomination that you belong to that teaches all those things that you believe? If so, what is the name of that denomination. If not, then are you trying to form your own denomination? If so, how many members are in your own denomination and what have you named it??
You accuse me of having strange ideas yet I am willing to bet that the majority of Christian denominations confess a common belief as I do with the Nicene Creed which says that Jesus is very God of very God, Light of Light, begotten before all worlds, begotten not made, etc. Here is a copy, read it for yourself and tell me where I have unique beliefs that do not fit the beliefs found in the Nicene Creed.
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God; begotten, not made; being of one essence with the Father; by Whom all things were made;
Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from the Heavens, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man;
And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried;
And arose again on the third day according to the Scriptures;
And ascended into the Heavens, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;
And shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end;
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life; Who proceedeth from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; Who spake by the Prophets;
In One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the remission of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
And the life of the age to come. Amen.
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/creed.html
(Emphasis mine)
LU, you asked which church I belong to…
Lu, have you heard about the Spiritual Church?
It was with Jesus as the head. It has no physical location (because it is SPIRITUAL).
Membrrs? Millions… Worldwide. But numbers are not the issue: Jesus said that there would be few relative to those who appear to confess Yahweh as their God and Jesus as their Lord.
You will see that Jesus did not state, NOR DID ANY FIRST CENTURY APOSTLE, that Jesus was GOD, neither that Jesus was YAHWEH.
The belief is that A SAVIOUR (SERVANT is also a qualified term) was ‘IN THE mind of God from the beginning.
Goodness, any FREE SYSTEM requires a backup: We are IMAGE OF OUR CREATOR!
No one claims we are GOD BECAUSE OF THAT. Yet we know that the first man was TRUE image of God… but no one claims Adam was God… He FELL FROM TRUE SONSHIP (Genesis, Luke 3:38)
Lu, what IF Adam had not sinned – would there have been a SAVIOUR?
you asked:
Lu, what IF Adam had not sinned – would there have been a SAVIOUR?
There would still have been one who was equipped to be a savior if necessary. If He was not needing to save any lost, Adam and Eve and all their descendants still needed Him to create them, give them life and care for them. It is through the Father AND the Son AND Their Holy Spirit that this takes place.
“Let US make man.”
you said:
You will see that Jesus did not state, NOR DID ANY FIRST CENTURY APOSTLE, that Jesus was GOD, neither that Jesus was YAHWEH.
If you have the eyes to see, you would see that He did and that they did. But you don’t have the eyes to see this. I’m trying to help you, my young friend.
Answer this question:
In the power of what name did the Israelites experience/perform supernatural events in the OT?
In the power of what name did the 1st century apostles experience/perform supernatural events in the NT?
LU, you said “There would still have been one who was equipped to be a savior if necessary. If He was not needing to save any lost, Adam and Eve and all their descendants still needed Him to create them, give them life and care for them. It is through the Father AND the Son AND Their Holy Spirit that this takes place.”
LU, you are avoiding the question – and this is fully understandable seeing that you know what the true answer is…
Lu, what does the scriptures say about God seeking a saviour from among Adam’s offspring?
How many times did God send a ‘saviour’ to the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews and yet all failed somewhere along the line?
And when God saw that there was no one, ‘nay, not one’, he created a fully holy man in the manner of Adam (enspirited by the Holy Spirit).
As to your second post:
1) The name they called upon was YHWH (in Hebrew) which the bible translate confusingly as ‘LORD’ (Always and distinctly in all caps but ignored by many disruptive trinitarians who try to say that Jesus was also ‘Lord’… Not the same reference but desperadoes will try!!)
2) The name in the New Testament they called upon was ‘Jesus’. You will of course note that Yahweh (YHWH) empowered this holy and sinless man to speak in his stead (Remember Moses!!!). God distanced himself from sinful mankind but put this holy sinless man as a gateway so mankind could still reach him. We must call to God THROUGH the gateway of Jesus Christ – IN the name of Jesus Christ.
Im sure you know the quoted verse, LU, referring to ‘no man reaching God except through the son.
If Jesus were God….LU… Why would we need to go through God to reach God?
LU, what do you mean by ‘The Father and the son and THEIR HOLY SPIRIT’?
Are there TWO or just ONE Holy Spirit – and – WHOSE HOLY SPIRIT does SCRIPTURES say it is?
Where does any scripture state or claim that the Holy Spirit of the Father is also the holy spiritual of the son?
Lu, just WHERE are you getting these wrongful ideas from?
you asked me:
If Jesus were God….LU… Why would we need to go through God to reach God?
Together they are God, not independantly. We go through Jesus because He is the way to the Father.
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