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Andrew….ANDREW… ANDREW….
So sad that you are debating, discussing, decrying… scriptures that you have extremely limited knowledge of!!
The Jews KNEW ALL ABOUT their foreFather, Abraham. Children were taught intensively about the Torah for their belief and because it was the formal method of personal and family and national teaching.
The Jews knew that the Christ (Greek), Messiah (Hebrew) would come from the line of Abraham.
All the Jews were taught and recited the Torah even if they didn’t fully understand what they read. God allows the revelation in its own time – he is the only one who ‘Says things before they happen as though they had already happened’ – he reveals snippets of his plan to the holy prophets of which the Jew regard Abraham as their greatest… Not even Moses (of which it is said Jesus is one in the likeness of him!) nor David, of which his throne (Spiritually) will be taken by one whom will rule forever!!
And you say they ‘knew nothing’!!!!!? You fall into your own hole… It is well said by you:
“It’s so amazing how people like to say the Bible means what it says until it doesn’t…”
Jael,
Now you know I didn’t say the Jews knew nothing of Abraham.They knew nothing of Jesus words in Jn 8 where he said,Abraham rejoiced to see my day,and he saw it and was glad. You know there is no reference to that in the OT. I ask you again to show me where you think it is? And no it’s not in Gal 3.
Jael,the Jews response of “you are not yet fifty years old” shows they were clueless of what he meant So instead of giving them a reference from the Torah about Abraham he gives them his own word-“before Abraham was I am”.-but perhaps that is an OT reference about God.? Remember Jesus tells them in vs37 that he knows they are Abrahams descendants,but seek to kill him for not accepting His word.In vs 38 Jesus says he’s seen God-I speak that which I’ve seen with my Father.The Jews claim Abraham as their father and Jesus claims God as his. And Jesus says he’s seen God and Abraham too.
vs 43 Why do you not understand what I say? because you cannot hear my word-which Jesus says is God’s word.
Andrew, Jesus NEVER says he has seen ‘God’… Where do you get that from?
Even the scriptures says that no man has seen the Father (or God) …’The SON WHO IS IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER, he has REVEALED HIM’.
The ‘Bosom’ position is exactly what we know it as: ‘Closest confidence’… The Father has revealed things to the son that no one else knows…
And as for Abraham seeing Jesus’ day…. I think you must be a true skeptic!!
God tells Abraham (Genesis 12.1-3, 15.1-6, 17.1-8) that great glory would come through his (Abraham’s) seed. Scriptures is not revealed to us in singular places …Jesus states that Abraham saw his day and was glad… Galatians expounds on that statement… and you say that the expounding doesn’t count!! Andrew, that’s amazing – someone says ‘It’s raining outside’ and you say, ‘How do you know…where is your proof?’ The speaker points to the falling rain outside through the window and shows you the local weather forecast predicting rain that day and that hour… And YOU say ‘Those PROOFS DON’T count!!!’
Amdrew, I think you truly have no spiritual awareness. Galatians states that Abraham saw the day of the coming saviour BY FAITH in what God Almighty told him… And you disbelieve GOD ALMIGHTY, Jesus Christ, and the great prophet Abraham….
Andrew, you are sad!!
Andrew, what do you say about the huge gaff made in the report that the Jews replied to Jesus, ‘You are not yet 50 years old – and you have seen Abraham!!’
This after Jesus had ONLY SAID that ABRAHAM had seen HIS (Jesus’) day.
The response from the Jews does not tally with the statement from Jesus…
Could this be YET ANOTHER IRRATIONAL TRINITARIAN attempt to claim Jesus was around in the time of Abraham? Sounds like it….!
In fact, it turns out to be a shot in the arm…because if (and was that) Abraham SAW Jesus’ day as a FUTURE event — then Jesus CANNOT have existed in the time of Abraham…
See, trinitarians tripped themselves up YET AGAIN by trying to tamper with the scriptures!!!
Jael,
Andrew, Jesus NEVER says he has seen ‘God’… Where do you get that from? In the context of Jn8 in vs38 Jesus says” I speak that which I have seen with my Father;and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.” and in vs 23 he tells them ” Ye are from beneath;I am from above;ye are of this world;I am not of this world.” And in Jn 6:46 “Not that any man hath seen the Father,save he which is of God,he hath seen the Father.” Jn 6:62 “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before.” 6:38 For I came down from heaven. Jn5:37 And the Father himself who sent me hath borne witness of me.Ye have neither heard his voice at any time,nor seen his shape. Jn 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven,but he that came down from heaven,even the Son of man which is in heaven.
No man hath seen God at any time,but the only begotten Son in the bosom of the Father has revealed him.And how can he reveal him better than any other? because he has been with him from the beginning and has seen him.As the Word he came down from heaven and became flesh. Jn 5:37 is quite interesting where he tells the Jews they have never heard God’s voice,nor seen his shape.And why does he tell them this except to say that he has; the Father bears witness of him and he bears witness of the Father.
And as for the Jews in Jn 8,would you expect them to know about or agree with Paul’s interpretation about Abraham from Gen 12,15,17? Of course not. And would they agree that Abraham had a vision about Jesus or somehow saw his day?
And Paul never says in Gal that Abraham saw Jesus day by faith,it says Gal 3:8″ And the scripture foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith,preached before the gospel unto Abraham,saying In thee shall all nations be blessed.” This is Paul’s interpretation of Abraham’s covenant to defend his version of the gospel against Jewish Christianity.
Jael,
Yes the question of the Jews with “you are not yet fifty years old and have you seen Abraham?”does seem an odd response,but I think it leads to the desired answer of the author. In my copy of the ESV it says in the footnote on vs57- some manuscripts has Abraham seen you? This would be a more natural response to what Jesus said and if Jesus answered the same way it would still make sense but not have the same effect.Apparently the majority of and most reliable manuscripts have it worded like it is. If it was worded “has Abraham seen you?” then Jesus might say yes he saw me by faith or in a vision but that would not sound very authoritative or fit the gospels theme. When Jesus says in vs 51 “verily,verily I say unto you if a man keep my word he shall never taste death” and the Jews response is Abraham and the prophets are dead,Jesus could’ve answered like he did to the Saducees in Matt regarding the resurrection that they are all still alive and Abraham is seeing him now. In the synoptics Moses and Elijah even come to visit him. But these Jews most likely believed in the resurrection and or life after death,so if that were Jesus response then his word wouldn’t be anything greater than the law and prophets.
From what I’ve read the known manuscripts for St John are mainly uniform except for the woman taken in adultery,begotten God,and some other minor variations. There’s no evidence of major tampering that I’ve heard of and there are many ancient fragments and manuscripts,but I do agree with most scholars that it is the latest of our four gospels. I don’t see or believe in what you call trinitarian addition,but rather opposition to Judaism and even Jewish Christianity in ways similar to Paul.
Andrew, all those claims that Jesus saw God… you are forcing words and meanings that do not exists in those verses.
First off: “God is SPIRIT”…. A spirit does not have shape.
Next: Doing what he sees the Father do IS NOT A VISUAL SEEING. It is SPIRITUAL. Jesus brought the testament of God, his Father, to the JEWS in the absolute hope that they would change their ways and return to the God of their fathers. The Jews were strangling, enslaving, constraining themselves, by the laws that God allowed Moses to give to them because they could not live with god’s laws directly. Jesus came to release them and bring them back to god’s law. They were naive and wayward children in the past but are now ‘adulescents’ as a nation of god’s first love. It was time they learnt the weightier matters of their spiritual heritage and to stop thinking I the flesh….but they couldn’t understand. Jesus always spoke of the SPIRITUAL but they (mis)understood it in the physical (flesh). You quoted the words of Jesus yourself:’Why do you not understand my words…?’
Third: It seems your (prior) learning of the false trinity doctrine has held you back from seeing the truth to the point of you selecting bibles and verses that are imaginatively trinitarian based renderings that are designed to indoctrinate. You have seen these yourself but try to justify them being that you cannot believe that there could be such blatant falsification (‘Has Abraham see you’….? Nice try!!)
It is clear that you are knowing that the gospel of John contains many strange anomalies (all attempting to justify trinitarian belief) and you are attempting to ‘…BELIEVE THE LIE!’
Jael,
I understand some of the verses from John may be taken as spiritual vision or seeing,but how would you define that? is it just spiritual understanding? is it a mental vision? is it just knowledge of God and faith?
In Jn 6:46 where it says “not that any man hath seen the Father save he which is of God,he has seen the Father” this is clearly stating that Jesus has seen God the Father. In vs 45 it says “It’s written in the prophets,they shall all be taught of God,so everyone who has heard and learned of the Father,comes to me”.vs 46-Not that any man hath seen the Father except Jesus. So here Jesus makes the point that the fulfillment of this prophecy is not that God will teach people directly,but through him because he’s the only man who has seen God directly. Compare Jn 1:18 and Jn6:46
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
And yes Jesus says God is a spirit but also implies he has a shape in 5:37 and so does Exodus when it says he has a face and backparts. If backparts isn’t a shape then I don’t know what is.
And how about Jn 8:17,18 when speaking with the Pharisees Jesus says” It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.” Here Jesus says the Father is a man too! You’d think the Pharisees would’ve jumped all over that unorthodox statement,but apparently they didn’t realize he was referring to God.
And in my reference to the ESV footnote I was just pointing out that apparently some manuscripts have it worded “has Abraham seen you?”and I only brought this up because you brought up the point of the passage not making sense or being an anomaly. Others in the past apparently thought the same and a scribe thus rendered it that way. Neither I nor the ESV was saying that’s how it should be-I told you it’s in the footnote on Jn 8:57. And that has absolutely no bearing on the trinity and in fact would probably be more to your theological favor-against Jesus deity- if it were worded like that. I believe it’s written like it’s written for theological reasons to plainly show Jesus deity.
And after I became a non-trinitarian I was for a short while involved with a conservative unitarian/adventist group online that denied Jesus preexistence but soon realized that they were not being honest with the scriptures either and their way of harmonizing doctrines was in some ways even more difficult than the trinitarian view I had before. And as far as “believing the lie”goes,what is that lie that Jesus accuses the Jews of believing? It certainly wasn’t the deity of Christ or Trinity.
Andrew, the Jews misunderstanding Jesus is a common theme throughout the New Testament scriptures. Think of Nicodemus and ‘you must be born again…’
What of the various parables of which most Jews thought only nice phylosophical stories – completely missing the SPIRITUAL realisation.
Think of the Jews claiming Jesus said he was ‘God’ when Jesus stated EMPHATICALLY that he said no such thing, ‘(I did not say I was (?) God,) I ONLY SAID I WAS THE SON IF GOD… Yet the scriptures that you know say that GOD HIMSELF called men of renown unto whom the word of God came, ‘Gods’.’ (Trinitarians never discuss this as it absolutely denies Jesus – by Jesus’ own words – as being the God they forcibly try to claim in their fallacious ideology)…
This latter: So earlier Jesus was supposedly claiming that he was ‘GOD’ (‘Before Abraham was, I am’)…really? Only a desperado could read that into those words. Yet a short while later the Jews accuse Jesus of saying he was God – and Jesus says ‘NO, I didn’t say that… The God – your God – ALSO CALLED MEN WHO RECEIVED HIS WORD ‘GODS’… In fact I didn’t even say that of myself- only SON OF GOD…’
Andrew, are you seeing the problem. Are you seeing the TRINITARIAN (oh, ok, the ‘Jesus is God’) problem??
Andrew, do you ever wonder how there can be a claim that Jesus is God?
I notice that you did the trinitarian trick of using the word ‘DEITY’ in place of ‘God’ – you do know that the word ‘Deity’ means ‘LIKE A GOD’…possessing ‘Godlike qualities’… It DOES NOT mean: ‘IS GOD’?
Andrew, the reason trinitarians et al use that term is because it conveniently confuses those who WANT TO BELIEVE in ‘Jesus is God’ into thinking it means ‘IS GOD’. But that caused a problem when scriptures says, ‘The Father was pleased that he, Jesus, should be FILLED with deity. YES, Jesus was ‘FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT… Godlike qualities’. The ‘JiG”s had to find a way out..so they CREATED a new term ‘GODHEAD’… Oh boy, crazy…! Think about it, Andrew…..!!! I’ll give you a few seconds……………..!!
If Jesus IS GOD, and GOD is Father, Son and HOLY SPIRIT… Then Jesus F, S, AND HS. Jesus is then filled with himself – it’s recursive… (Ask if you don’t understand!)… Worse, if only then Jesus was filled with ‘DEITY’ (‘God’ to the ‘JiG’s) – WHAT WAS HE BEFORE he was filled with Deity.
You know, I have never gotten a ‘JiG’ to answer me on this properly. Why, yes, they refer to Phil 2 where Jesus (as God, oh dear… Do you see the problem?) ‘EMPTIED HIMSELF’ to become man… BUT then they realise that that cannot work so they try to say Jesus DID NOT EMPTY HIMSELF but only VEILED his deity… But that still raises the question of ‘How was he then ‘FILLED’ with deity’ if he was only ‘Veiling’ himself of it? Do you see how one untruth leads to further untruths…
1) Jesus supposedly mains he is God (‘I am’)
2) JesusEMPHATICALLY denies he is God
3) Jesus is supposedly GOD who emptied himself (Phil 2)
4) Jesus did not empty himself – only veiled himself?
5) Jesus, who WAS GOD…
6) …was then FILLED with GOD despite being 100% God all the time???
7) At Jesus’ baptism GOD ‘was so pleased’ with Jesus (who was God!)…
8) …that God ‘adopted Jesus as his Son’ (Today I have become your Father, and you have become my Son’)… Oh, wasn’t Jesus supposed the son of God from ETERNITY already? (LU, are you reading this – can you answer me?)
And why are you discussing ‘Jesus seeing God’?
Do you notice that the theme (by the sad trinity ideology) changed from ‘Sering God’ to ‘Seeing the Father’ in John 46? Yet ‘JiG’s never appear to notice this.
The Jews PERFECTLY claim God as their Father… Why disassociate the trinitarian view of the other two? What then is ‘the Son God’ to them if, as JiG’s claim they thought Jesus was God?
Jesus came to ‘REVEAL THE Father’… Why only ONE of the three-in-one Gods?
Are the Jews supposed to have already known the Son and Holy Spirit?
Andrew… Are you seeing the farcity of the ‘JiG’ nonsense?
Jael,
you said:
Today I have become your Father, and you have become my Son
These are not words found in the original manuscript, sorry that you continue to not catch that after I have pointed it out to you.
There is a similar phrase that was used to identify Jesus as the promised Messiah in Psalm 2. It referred to the day of His resurrection when He was begotten from the dead. We all should know that He was identified as the Son before then and that He existed before then.
Lu, you are snatching at straws.
Explain what you mean by ‘They are not words found in the original manuscript’.
Lu, can you also explain how you come to believe that psalm 2 is referring to the day Jesus was raised from the dead ….when there is no documentation in scripture regarding this!
Is this your way of trying to defy the truth? See, it doesn’t work – all it does is show that you are being so disingenuous as to apportion scriptures incorrectly in order to maintain your false ideology.
Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten the
Romans 1:1Paul,a servant of Jesus Christ,called to be an apostle,separated unto the gospel of God 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
Excellent, Andrew.
Lu, what do you say to the declaration by the saints of scriptures that Jesus was ‘Begotten’ at his being raised from the dead?
Can you show me a corresponding verse that corresponds accordingly to your belief that Jesus was ‘begotten’ from eternity??
Jael,
You said to Lu, “Lu, can you also explain how you come to believe that psalm 2 is referring to the day Jesus was raised from the dead ….when there is no documentation in scripture regarding this!” Is this your way of trying to defy the truth?”
So I show you there is documentation in scripture that plainly attests to this and you just ask her another question! Is this your way of trying to defy the truth? the truth that you were plainly wrong.
You don’t know the bible very well at all,but only the sectarian dogmas you’re brainwashed with and when shown you’re wrong all you can do is either deny it by your pat examples or glibly ignore it and try and change the subject. Just what cult are you involved with? what is your brand of being oh so spiritual and wise and the rest of the world isn’t?
Andrew, what is my response to YOU and point put to LU?
Im interested to see how you come to the conclusion you set out above!
you said:
Lu, what do you say to the declaration by the saints of scriptures that Jesus was ‘Begotten’ at his being raised from the dead?
I say: I have been telling this to you. I have shown you that the word ‘begotten’ can not mean ‘brought into existence’ since the Son had to exist in order to have been begotten from the dead. So when we read that the Son is the only begotten son, that does not mean that He was brought into existence just by the term ‘begotten.’ One has to already exist before being begotten in order to be begotten. For example, in order for something to be begotten from the womb, it has to already exist in the womb.
Can you show me a corresponding verse that corresponds accordingly to your belief that Jesus was ‘begotten’ from eternity??
Yes, Proverbs 8
22“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
23“From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24“When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water.
25“Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth;
26While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world.
27“When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed,
29When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
30Then I was beside Him, [as] a master workman; And I was daily [His] delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
31Rejoicing in the world, His earth, And [having] my delight in the sons of men.
you said:
Explain what you mean by ‘They are not words found in the original manuscript’.
I already have explained this to you. The correct translation of the words in the original manuscript is:
YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.
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