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I believe this scripture answers the question:
“Jonah PRAYED to Jehovah his God FROM THE INWARD PARTS OF THE FISH and said: ‘Out of my distress I called out to Jehovah, and he proceeded to answer me. OUT OF THE BELLY OF SHEOL I cried for help. You heard my voice.’” (Jon 2:1, 2)
Are people conscience in sheol, in the grave? (Eccl 9:10)
It's true that people are usually unconscious and dead when in sheol, or the common grave of mankind.
The belly of the fish could be called the belly of sheol because for a certainty it was as good as his grave, as sheol to him.
Except, Jehovah was behind these things, causing the wind, causing the fish to swallow him.
So we are told that out of the belly of sheol he was conscious, alive, praying. The Bible uses the expression “impotent in death.” It says the dead are “conscious of nothing at all.” And it says that there is “no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol.” (Eccl 9:10)
Yet, he was conscious, because he was praying while in the belly of sheol.So that leads me to believe that either those other scriptures are wrong, or because he was basically lying in what was to be his grave, it is called the “belly of sheol.”
And yes, it's not normal for a person to be alive in the belly of a fish for three days. But then again, it's also not normal for Jehovah to cause a wind, or to cause a fish to swallow someone. Jehovah was behind these things.
Hi david,
Ps 16.10
“for you will not abandon my soul to Sheol..”
Ps 30.3
“O Lord, You have brought up my soul from Sheol, You have kept me alive..”
Ps 49.15
“But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol..”
Ps 89.48
“Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol?”So Sheol is where the soul sleeps as shown in Ps 139.8. It is also the grave where the body is consumed[Ps 49.14]. It is normally entered only by those who are dead [asleep]but it is recorded too that living ones have gone there[Num 16.30-33].Christ was yet alive in Sheol [1Peter 3.19]and so perhaps too was Jonah, so making his experience an allegory about the resurrection of Christ?
Quote Christ was yet alive in Sheol [1Peter 3.19]
I was under the impression that Christ died.1 Peter 3:18,19,20
“….being made alive in the spirit. In this state [in the spirit, following his resurrection] also he [Jesus] went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls [“souls,” KJ, Dy; “people,” TEV, JB; “persons,” RS], were carried safely through the water.”Nick, were those “spirits in prison” the souls of the humans who had refused to take heed to Noah’s preaching before the Flood, and was the way now open for them to go to heaven?
Comparison of 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 with Genesis 6:2-4 shows that these spirits were angelic sons of God that had materialized and married in Noah’s day.
At 1 Peter 3:19, 20 the Greek word for “spirits” is pneu´ma·sin, while the word rendered “souls” is psy·khai´. The “spirits” were not disembodied souls but disobedient angels; the “souls” here referred to were living people, humans, Noah and his household. What was preached to “spirits in prison” must therefore have been a message of judgment.Quote Hi david,
Ps 16.10
“for you will not abandon my soul to Sheol..”
Ps 30.3
“O Lord, You have brought up my soul from Sheol, You have kept me alive..”
Ps 49.15
“But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol..”
Ps 89.48
“Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol?”
Which of these scriptures says that a person is alive in Sheol?Quote Ps 16.10
“for you will not abandon my soul to Sheol..”
Right, God would resurrect him. “Him” or “his life” (as soul is usually used in the Bible) would not be abandoned, or left in sheol forever. He'd be resurrected.
None of these scriptures say a person (soul) or the life of a person (soul) is alive in sheol.Hi David,
Jesus died as men do.He gave up his spirit according to scripture.
But his soul did not sleep in Sheol and his body did not corrupt.
The Spirit of God did not die or leave him but continued to enliven him and then resurrect him.
We follow him.
Quote (david @ April 10 2006,20:01) Nick, were those “spirits in prison” the souls of the humans who had refused to take heed to Noah’s preaching before the Flood, and was the way now open for them to go to heaven?
Comparison of 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 with Genesis 6:2-4 shows that these spirits were angelic sons of God that had materialized and married in Noah’s day.
At 1 Peter 3:19, 20 the Greek word for “spirits” is pneu´ma·sin, while the word rendered “souls” is psy·khai´. The “spirits” were not disembodied souls but disobedient angels; the “souls” here referred to were living people, humans, Noah and his household. What was preached to “spirits in prison” must therefore have been a message of judgment.Quote Hi david,
Ps 16.10
“for you will not abandon my soul to Sheol..”
Ps 30.3
“O Lord, You have brought up my soul from Sheol, You have kept me alive..”
Ps 49.15
“But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol..”
Ps 89.48
“Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol?”
Which of these scriptures says that a person is alive in Sheol?Quote Ps 16.10
“for you will not abandon my soul to Sheol..”
Right, God would resurrect him. “Him” or “his life” (as soul is usually used in the Bible) would not be abandoned, or left in sheol forever. He'd be resurrected.
None of these scriptures say a person (soul) or the life of a person (soul) is alive in sheol.
Hi david,
The angelic sons of God in Gen 6 seem to bear no relationship to Noah or the situation you pose at all.Please can you explain the connection you see.
You say that Christ was alive in Sheol and cite 1 Pet 3:18-20, which says that Christ went his way and preached to spirits in prison. And you take this to mean that Christ was doing this while dead and therefore not really dead, but “alive in Sheol,” as you say.
But if you look at verse 18, the preceeding words, it's speaking about after he had been 'made alive in the spirit,' after his resurrection, while he was obviously quite alive, not in Sheol. This is all that I am saying.
Quote Hi david,
The angelic sons of God in Gen 6 seem to bear no relationship to Noah or the situation you pose at all.Please can you explain the connection you see.
Answering this question, would only take this conversation even further off course. Oh well.
1 Peter 3:18,19,20
“….being made alive in the spirit. In this state [in the spirit, following his resurrection] also he [Jesus] went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls [“souls,” KJ, Dy; “people,” TEV, JB; “persons,” RS], were carried safely through the water.”
These spirits in prison are those “who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah's days.”Nick, I think we've had this conversation before, but I'm not sure in which thread. Actually, probably the Nephilim thread. I would say that's where this should be discussed.
The Bible often uses the metaphor of sleep with reference to death, as they do have similarities.
If Jesus was literally sleeping, he wasn't really dead.Sleep is like death in a number of respects. You are unconscious, and unaware of anything. You can be woken up or brought back to life. But sleep does not equal death.
Are you going to death tonight, or to sleep? They are different.“Was lazarus asleep”?
Let me ask you:
Is Jehovah a Rock? Are you the salt of the earth? Is Jesus a door? Are you the light of the world? (and 500 more questions I don't have time to put down.)
Nick, metaphors are very very common in the Bible. If lazarus was literally sleeping, anyone of course could have woken him up. We can agree that he was in a sleep like state, (meaning he was unconscious, unaware of anything around him, including the passing of time, sound, sight, smells, etc, and that like sleep, he could be woken up, or in a dead persons case, resurrected, which is sort of like a sleeping person being woken up, but not the same thing.) Sleep and death have similarities, hence the comparison.
JOHN 11:11-14
“He said these things, and after this he said to them: “Laz´a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.” Therefore the disciples said to him: “Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well.” Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. At that time, therefore, Jesus said to them outspokenly: “Laz´a·rus has died,”Is it not clear that this is a metaphor?
'Lazarus has gone to sleep.'
'Lord, if he is sleeping he will get well.'
'Jesus was speaking of his death, but they were imagining he was literally talking about sleep.'
'At that time Jesus made it clear: He was dead, not sleeping.'Quote Hi david,
Was Lazarus asleep?After going through the metaphor of sleep and his disciples not getting it, he said to them outspokenly: “Lazarus has died.”
Hi david,
It is also clear that death is sleep [soul sleep] and Jesus is making this point too or he never would have said it first surely.There are many references in the scripture as death being where the spirit leaves the body. I know very little about soul sleep but why would our spirit leave but not our soul. Also in Revelation 6:9 it says “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.” that seems to place souls in a heavenly realm.
When I was saved I had not been indoctrinated as a kid and I did not trust churches, so I read the scriptures through many times to reach what I considered was at least guidelines for choosing a fellowship. What I'm saying is without preconception I concluded that when we die our body rots in the grave but our soul and spirit go to be with Jesus to return and be reunited with our glorified body when Jesus returns(if your saved). If you are not saved then your soul and spirit go to hell same as referenced in Jesus's parable of the beggar and the rich man.
got to run
Hi ST,
Everyone believes they go to heaven when they die, with little evidence in scripture to back it up.hi scriptureseeker,
Quote I know very little about soul sleep but why would our spirit leave but not our soul.
Spirit leaves your body when you die. And you could say that your “soul” (life) leaves your body when you die, as there are many many scriptures that speak of “soul” as the life of a person or animal. There are many other scriptures that speak of “soul” as the person or animal itself.Quote What I'm saying is without preconception I concluded that when we die our body rots in the grave but our soul and spirit go to be with Jesus PSALM 146:4
“His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.”
It is God that is the source of this spirit. The Bible speaks of the spirit going back to God when we die. But this same scripture above says that in that day our thoughts perish. So the spirit that returns to God apparently does not have thinking ability. When God blew spirit into Adam and Adam “became” a soul, this spirit seemed to be a life force animating Adam, giving him life. Based on all the scriptures that speak of this spirit, I think the closest thing we could compare it to would be electricity.
But, this is really more of a discussion for a different thread.Hi david,
Jonah knew he had been in the fish three days and nights [or it would never be known] so he could not have died but as you say the belly of the fish was 'as sheol'. He was “fainting away”[2.7]but then remembered to pray.OK???
So, maybe I misunderstood you before. Or maybe I am misunderstanding you now. In November, we discussed this, in this thread.You just now said: “
Quote he could not have died but as you say the belly of the fish was 'as sheol'.” Right, I agree. It was as if he was in sheol. The belly of the fish was “as sheol” to him, or it was as good as sheol to him, and would have been, except Jehovah was behind this.
Yet, in November you said:
Quote Hi david,
So you say Jonah did not die. Do we know of any other human being who has been swallowed by a fish and not died? Are there any fish that contain air sufficient for a man to breathe for three days and not die? Imagine a whale swallowing a man. Certainly it would not be able to chew him or digest him. But A whale dives to tremendous depths [to the roots of the mountains] and the pressuse itself would kill a man.A whale breathes air but only every 20mins or so so the air inhaled would become oxygen deficient such as would kill a man.
I think it is obvious that except for the miracle of God no man would survive three days in the belly of a fish.
Now that makes no statement about when he prayed. He could have prayed the instant he was swallowed and then become unconscious and died. Then he could have gone to sheol, as men's souls do, but then his prayer was answered and resurrected and he was spewed up again on dry land by the fish.
It makes more sense to me.Quote Hi david,
So it was all a miarcle? We only have Jonah's experiences to go on and he said he was;
Thrown overboard
Swallowed by a fish.
Prayed.
Went to Sheol or the pit.
Prayed
Was spewed up by the fish on land three days later alive.To say from this he lived three days in a fish and never died seems far fetched.
Quote Hi david,
The question is; Can men survive three days in the belly of a whale? the short answer is no. The answer most seem to give is that he did by a miracle. But somehow that did not get written. It is more likely written as a resurrection from death, a sign for the resurrection of Jesus.In these posts you seem to strongly indicate that to say he died “seems far fetched,” in your words.
Yet now, “he could not have died.”Am I misunderstanding your last post?
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