The seven trumpets

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Quote (Tiffany @ Jan. 01 2009,10:57)

To really understand this study, you have to go slow, and think about the historical events they describe, not to mention the symbolic laguish that is used. When you read about the seven angels who have the seven trumpets, and the seven angels who have the seven bowls, do you look at these events as yet future; or have you ever considered the possibility that they have already occurred? Do you also realize that John looked at these events in his vision, not knowing their meaning, or the time for which they were given? That means that we should not expect to find the events listed in the order as they really happened. Rev. 8:1   “And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.” v. 2     “And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.” v. 6    “And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.” John may have listed them as “the first angel sounded his trumpet, and this happened; the second angel sounded his trumpet, and that happened”; and so on. But as you will see, the events that they describe will show not only that they are not listed in the right order, but also that they are in fact have already occurred. The same is true for the seven bowls. Rev. 15:1   “ And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God”. Rev. 16:1   “ And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels; Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth”. The seven bowls would show how God would punish the people on the earth. But as the angels were told to “go your ways“, all seven of them, John did not know when these events would take place; and the fact that the angels were told to go your ways, all of them, could mean that he had to look at all the events that were shown to him, all at once, which could also explain the brief description of each. You may also be surprised to learn that they describe the same events as the trumpets. For this reason, I will list the trumpets as they have occurred, according to their time in history, and compare to them the bowls of the wrath of God. We need to look at the description of every trumpet, and every plague, and then see if an event happened in the past that matches that description. This will also show us whether these plagues are already past, or yet future. As in the past, God has used other nations to do his punishing, or through other means that would not appear to us as though they be of God. First Trumpet: Rev. 9:13   “And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God.” v. 14   “Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphra’tes.” v. 15   “And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.” v. 16   “And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand; and I heard the number of them.” This huge army that John describes would have to be the Huns, who in the 5th century almost overran all of Europe. Assuming they were the Huns, could they have been 200 million strong? In 722 BC, God had sent the Assyrians to punish the northern kingdom Israel. He said they were a nation strong and without numbers.   Joel 1:6    “For a nation is come up upon my land (Israel), strong and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he has the cheek teeth of a great lion.” In Rev. 9:16 we are given a number of 200 million; are we then to assume that the Assyrians had an army exceeding 200 million? The Huns were in fact called an army of horsemen because of their fighting skills on horseback. But if we take this number literal, we should also ask some “literal” questions. Could there have been an army of 200 million men in the 5th century, or any century for that matter? Who would have commanded it? And how? Would such an army have been logistically possible? Would such an army have been necessary? The same questions apply if we think that this is an army of the future. Think about it; in todays specialized, mechanized, and computerized military of every branch, what country could and would want to mobilize an army that size? Besides, would 200 million soldiers plus their equipment even fit in the Valley of Megiddo? Now compare this trumpet with The first bowl: Rev. 16:12   “ And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared”. No records show that the river Euphrates ever dried up; on the contrary, depending on the amount of rain and snow fall, up north in Turkey, the river would swell and flood large areas, especially in the low plains of Iraq, due to the slow elevation drop – 2 to 3 – inches per mile, compared to -10 + – inches per mile in Turkey; as during the hot summer month, the water level would be the lowest.  Having to cross large swampy areas would have been difficult enough, but it would have made fighting impossible; so the land which the river Euphrates flooded had to first dry up before an attack was possible. The kings of the east were the Muslim Turks that started their migration west in the 10th century. They came from as far as Central Asia and had made Palestine and Egypt their provinces by the 11th century. In the chain of events, there is no trumpet to link up with the second bowl. The second bowl was bad enough all by itself.   Second bowl: Rev. 16:2   “And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth (people) and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image.” We should remember that the cross had become the mark of the beast, Rome. And the image was the pope, the Roman Catholic church. This grievous sore fell on all of what used to be the Western Roman Empire and was now ruled over by the pope, the image; all had the mark of the beast, the cross; and all worshiped the image, the pope. This terrible plague happened in the middle of the 14th century and killed well over 25 million people; they called it the Black Death plague.         Second Trumpet: Rev. 8:10   “And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters.” v. 11   “And the name of the star is called Wormwood (bitter): and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.”   This star was not a meteorite, and it did not fall from the sky either. We have today many stars right hear on earth; basketball stars, football stars, baseball stars, and movie stars; they are all stars. This great star that fell from heaven was the pope. He fell from his heaven, his place of authority; he fell from power, thanks to Napoleon. The pope was the lamp to the world, but it was his light, his doctrine, that poisoned the waters, the true gospel of Christ, and made them bitter; and many men had to die for it. And now look at the third bowl. Third bowl: Rev. 16:4    “ And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of water; and they became blood”. v. 5     “ And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous O lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus”. v. 6     “ For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets; and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy”. Water is symbolic for the truth of God; Jesus said, John 7:37   “… if any man thirst let him come unto me, and drink “. v. 38    “ He that believeth on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living waters”. Jesus told the woman by the well, John 4:10   “… if thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, give me to drink; thou wouldest have ask of him, and he would have given thee living water”. Ever since Justinian died, in 565 AD, the western leg of Rome was left to fend for themselves. Although the pope took full charge of state and church, he had no army. He called on France, the strongest kingdom of Europe, for protection. The pope even crowned some of the king’s Holy Roman emperors. The French Revolution that started in 1789 and lasted thirteen years changed all that; where the Catholic church had persecuted, tortured, and killed those that opposed her, the saints, the Catholic church now became the persecuted herself. In fact, the church was expelled. The rivers and fountains of waters that became blood was the antichrist’s waters, false doctrine. During the French Revolution, tens of thousand of Catholics, bishops, and priests were massacred; it was the end of the antichrist’s reign. It was he that was responsible for the death of millions of saints. For thou hast given them blood to drink you could say, they got a taste of their own medicine. Third Trumpet: Rev. 8:7   “And the first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth (people); and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.”   1914 was the beginning of World War I. Soldiers were dug in, in trenches reaching from Holland down to Switzerland. Artillery shells, howitzer and mortar shells rained down on both sides like hail, mingled with the blood of dead soldiers. Nothing but tree stumps were left standing on the battlefield, and no grass was there to be seen.   Now add to this the description of the fourth bowl. Fourth bowl: Rev. 16:3   “ And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea (all the nations), and it became as the blood of a dead man; and every living soul died in the sea”. Millions of men died from all nations, became as the blood of a dead man; and even those soldiers that survived the war were more dead then alive. Every soldier will tell you, after fighting and surviving many battles, after seeing the horrors of war, you are not the same as you were before; war changes every soldier, the old you will have died in you. The same is true for the civilians in whose country the war was fought.     Fourth Trumpet: Rev. 8:12   “And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.” The sun, the moon, and stars are objects that give us light, but how could a third of all of them have turned dark? They didn’t; it is not their light the Bible speaks off. Our kings and rulers, our leaders, they are our light; they have the understanding to give us direction; they make decisions for us, in our best interest; at least that is why they are our leaders. They are our sun, moon, and stars, and they became darkened by their inability to make wise decisions. The third part of our light givers refers to the League of Nations. 63 Nations, about a third of all the nations at that time, belonged to the League of Nation. The fifth bowl actually tells the rest of the story. Fifth bowl: Rev. 16:10   “ And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongue for pain”. This beast, kingdom, is the seventh king of Rev. 17:10, that came into existence during the First World War; his name was “ the League of Nations “. This king did not come to conquer; he came to prevent future wars, but he failed in his mission. This kingdom was full of darkness; it had no understanding; it could not make wise decisions, and the result was the Second World War. They bid their tongue; they bid their fingernails; they pulled out their hair; what this all means is, they had no clue what to do now; and so it went into perdition. (See the 7th head) Fifth Trumpet: Rev. 8:8    “And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood.” v. 9     “And the third part of creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.”   Again, this great mountain is no meteorite. Mountain is a metaphor for kingdom or nation. Germany is a great mountain, a great nation; it was symbolically cast into the sea of nations, and they all caught on fire and became as blood. In other words, this is speaking of the Second World War. Look at the description of the sixth bowl.   Sixth bowl: Rev. 16:17    “ And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, it is done.” v. 18   “And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.” This great earthquake has nothing to do with the shaking of the ground; it is the shaking of governments, man’s societies, man’s ways of life. No greater war was ever fought then the Second World War. It was the greatest shaking the earth people had ever experienced.   v. 19   “And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.” After the war, the great city Jerusalem was divided into three religious sections, Jewish, Muslim, and Christians; they all claimed to have a right to the city. Great Babylon is symbolic for all false religion. Satan, who is the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4), has deceived the whole world (Rev. 12:9); and so God’s wrath was on the entire world. v. 20   “And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.” Islands are provinces; mountains are kingdoms; fled away or were not found is to say, they were now ruled over, at least for a long while, by their liberators.     v. 21    “ And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent (100 pounds); and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, for the plague thereof was exceeding great”. During the Second World War, enough bombs were dropped, all over the world, that for the Apostle John it could have been easily taken for hail. For John a 100-pound stone or a 100-pound bomb would have looked the same. Even if he saw the bombs exploding on impact, how would you expect John to describe that, not even knowing what an explosion was, except to say “the plague was exceeding great.”   Sixth Trumpet: Rev. 9:1   “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a great star fall from heaven unto the Earth; and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.” What John was shown was the A-bomb fallen from the sky; to him it was a star. When it exploded, in John’s mind that opened the bottomless pit because where else could the smoke come from; this huge mushroom cloud had to come from a great furnace, which darkened the sun, and the air, v. 2     “And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.” v. 3     “A nd there came out of the smoke locust upon the earth; and onto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.” There are two things we need to pay attention too, one, these “locusts” came out of the smoke; and two, they had power as the scorpions.   v. 4     “And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.” v. 5     “And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five month; and their torment was in the torment of a scorpion, when it striketh a man.” John was describing the scene the best way he could with what he understood. He most likely had seen swarms of locust before, how they appeared like a cloud, swooping down on the earth, and eating up all vegetation; but these locusts didn’t do that; that’s because what John saw coming out of the smoke were no locusts; it was the debris and dust thrown up by the explosion; radioactive fallout, we call it. It didn’t hurt the trees and the grass, but it caused tremendous sours and pain to those that were exposed to it. People whished they were dead rather then suffer through it. v. 6    “And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.”   In the next four verses, John attempts to describe another kind of locust, the B-29 Bomber. v. 7     “And the shapes of the locust were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.” Looking at a B-29 from the front, one could take those rows of square windows from the cockpit for a crown; and to us it would be of no surprise to find faces of men behind that crown. v. 8     “And they had hair as the hair of woman, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.”   The hair as of a woman would be the vapor trail of the highflying bombers, coming from the four propellers engines, lion teeth. v. 9      “And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their  wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.” v. 10    “And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails; and their power was to hurt men  five month.” With 50 caliber machine guns in front and a 20 mm canon in the tail, they had power to hurt. Add to that the seventh bowl, and the picture is complete. Seventh bowl: Rev. 16:8   “ And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire”. v. 9    “And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues; and they repented not to give him glory”. We all have seen pictures of the devastation caused by the atomic bomb dropped over Japan. We have seen pictures of people that were burned by the heat of the blast, and from the radiation. We have seen pictures of the blast itself that is so bright you can’t look at it without protection; how would you expect John to describe a scene like that, except to compare it with the sun? Seventh Trumpet: Rev. 11:15   “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”   This trumpet sound announced the return of Jesus Christ to this earth, but unnoticed by any human. 1 Thes. 4:16   “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump (The last trump) of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.” 1 Thes. 5:2   “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” The dead in Christ were resurrected because they have to be trained to rule with Christ as kings and priest; they were also the only once that heard the trumpet sound. Rev. 5:10   “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests; and we shall reign on the earth.” Jesus told the apostles he would go and prepare a place for them, the saints, and then come back for them; he did. This is what is meant by setting up God’s kingdom. Dan. 2:44   “And in the days of these kings (See the seventh head) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” This, according to historical events, the seven seals have been opened; the seven trumpets have been blown, and the seven bowls have been poured out. People in the past never realized when prophecy was being fulfilled, do we? The Bible is available to every one, and other information is made easy to obtain from computers; Daniel said that knowledge would be increased; are we making use of it? Whether we believe it, or show any interest in God’s word, it want stop God from going ahead with his plan. You want to be among those that are left? You have to start doing something about it now! Georg

Hi Georg:

You have an excellent knowledge of history, but no, I believe that the seven last plagues are still future. My understanding is that they will be admistered as judgments on those who are left here on earth after the church is taken out of here.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Cindy]

Marty

May I suggest then that you read “the Rapture” on this thread.

Georg

[lineon]

Hi Georg

How would you fit the seals and trumpets into history.
You say all this has come to pass. See below.

6th seal; violent earthquake mountains where moved.

1st trumpet; hail and fire mixed with blood 1/3 earth 1/3 trees 1/3 grass burned.
2nd trumpet; mountain of fire thrown into sea 1/3 sea creatures died 1/3 ships sank.
3rd trumpet; burning star fell on1/3 rivers and springs.
4th trumpet; 1/3 sun, 1/3 moon, 1/3 stars, 1/3 day, 1/3 night lost their brightness.

Lineon

[Cindy]

lineon

The sixth seal:
Rev. 6:12 “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, lo, there was a great Earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood.”
v. 13 “And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.”

When we hear of earthquakes, we automatically thing of the shaking of the ground, destruction of buildings and death; and that for a good reason. However, when we read about earthquakes in our Bible, it is not always a shaking of the ground that is meant by it; earth is a metaphor for people and their governments. Just as real earthquakes shake up and destroy buildings, destroy and disrupt lives, this earthquake shook up kingdoms and governments; it destroyed and disrupted many lives. It changed their way of life forever. Why am I so sure this was not a real earthquake? Consider this, the Bible never mentions volcanic eruptions, floods or mudslides, hurricanes or tornados; never mentioned tsunamis; and they can be every bit as destructive as an earthquake. Let’s also understand that an earthquake has never caused the Sun to turn black or the Moon to become as blood; neither have any stars fallen from heaven because of an earthquake. This was an earthquake that caused disturbances all over the world. It was a shaking of people, of societies, of kingdoms; and it started of all places right here in America, 1776 AD. This date should be familiar to all. People were getting tired of monarchs, being taxed without having a say-so in it, being persecuted for their believes. And a new world had opened up for them, America. Soon the people in this new world were finding out that the king of the old world was reaching all across the Atlantic Ocean into their pockets. That did it; this time we will fight, they said. This revolution started the greatest earthquake for freedom in mans history. It was the inspiration for the French Revolution, as well as many revolutions all over Europe.
The French Revolution was the most violent; it lasted the longest and was the most significant of all revolution in that it caused the end of antichrists reign. People were starving to death, while the king and queen, the nobles and the clergy, were living in splendor.
The revolution was an act of desperation that turned into anger; and once it got started, into nothing but hate toward all the rich and wealthy, and that included the Catholic church, the revolution had turned into a massacre, total anarchy. The king and queen were guillotined along with thousands of bishops and priests; tens of thousands of Catholics were killed. The Catholic church, the heaven, was expelled from France.

Rev, 6:14 “And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.”

This was the “great earthquake”, and the sun became black, meaning it no longer gave light. Jesus had told us, he was the light of the world,

John 8:12 “Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying; I am the light of the world; he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”

The Catholic church, the antichrist, was the sun, the light of the world; it became black was no longer allowed to shine. The moon has no light of his own; he reflects the light of the sun. The moon here are referred to the priests and bishops; they reflect, teach, the light of the Pope, his doctrines, became as blood, were killed. And who are the stars that fell from what heaven? This was not a meteor shower; we have lots of stars in Hollywood and in the sports arena, and many of them have fallen to the ground, for whatever reason. The stars referred to hear were the kings, princes, and nobles. They would carry out the pope’s order of torture and execution. After all, the church couldn’t bloody their hands. Heaven? The Vatican is the pope’s heaven; it is his place of authority. When the pope lost his power to shine, to rule, so did his stars. Nothing remained the same when it was all over.

Rev. 6:15 “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid semselves in the dens, and in the rocks of the mountains;”

Those that managed to escape the slaughter fled to other kingdoms -mountains- looking for protection in their rocks, strongholds.

Georg

[lineon]

Hi George

I am still digesting your first post.

You seem to interpret the trumpets according to Georg. [no offense]

How can you be sure of your interpretation, it does make sense to me.
But I have to take it with a pinch of salt.

How would you explain 'The Return of Our Lord Jesus Christ'
and those bowels being poured out?

[Cindy]

lineon

It is not easy to try to explain scriptures, saying, they do not mean what ministers have said for Centuries.
Minsters tell us, Antichrist will soon make a covenant in the middle east using Dan. 9:27 to prove their point, when in fact that scripture talks about Christs ministry lasting for three and a half years.
People don't understand that the abominations is the mass sacrifice by the Catholic church; that in fact the Antichrist is the pope.
I believe, most people know by now, that Dec. 25 is not Christs birthday, and yet they celebrate it anyway; they know that eggs and rabbits have nothing to do with Christs resurrection, and yet they celebrate it that way anyway.
In other words, people don't care; they do what makes them feel good, not what Jesus commanded us to do.
There are many things people believe, that the bible does not teach; Jesus said, to worship God, you have to worship him in spirit and in “truth”; how can you do that if you don't believe the truth?
Do you expect God to give those who call him a liar, the Holy Spirit? And that is were all understanding comes from, the Holy Spirit.
You can not learn about God in a seminar, God does not teach there. How can any one teach about what he can't see?
To understand the word of God, the truth, you first have to ask God for his Holy Spirit, and then allow him to guide you.
Jesus knew it would not be easy, he told us, old wine taste better.

What is it that our ministers tell us, Jesus will come down from heaven riding a white stallion, and every body will see him. What did Jesus say, his return will be unnoticed, like a thief; whom do you believe.
In Daniel there is a scripture that says, “blessed is he that waiteth, and comes to the 1335 days/years, Dan. 12:12. Why are they blessed that wait, waiting is done in the grave, who are the once that wait, and wait for what? the saints, for the resurrection.
When did the waiting started? it started when Antichrist began to rule, to persecute, and kill the saints, in 565 AD. You add 1335 years to 565, and you come to 1900, the time of the first resurrection.

There is another scripture in Daniel that speaks of “setting up” the kingdom of God, Dan. 2:44. These kings are a reference to the ten toes. We have been living in the days of these kings since 1946, they are the “United Nation”.
What does setting up mean? It means you have to get all that will rule as kings and priests ready, the saints. That in turn means, they have to first of all be resurrected; and that happened at the end of the 1335 days/years, 1900.

In regards to the bowls, please be specific to what you're asking, as I have given my explanation, and wouldn't know what you are referring too.

Georg

[lineon]

Rev 11

The two witnesses proclaim God's message.
The beast will defeat them.
They will rise after 3 days.
7th trumpet; God and his Messiah have taken power of the earth.
Milleum has begun.

Hi Georg

How would you interpret Rev 11.

Lineon

[Cindy]

lineon

Rev. 11:1 “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.”
   
John was told to measure the temple; this is God’s spiritual temple, the saints. And the altar; the altar is were you offer up your sacrifice; John was told to measure their sacrifices too because they are the worshippers of God. Describing the reed as a rod is to say, saints need correction and discipline too.

Rev. 3:19 “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, be zealous therefore and repent.”

Rev. 11:2  “But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they treat under foot forty and two month.”

The court outside the temple is the gentiles, none believers; measure them not. They will be measured during Christ’s millennium. The holy city is Jerusalem. The saints were the once trodden under foot, persecuted for 42 month. Notice the length of time in the next verse.

Rev.11:3  “And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”

We read in another place that the saints were to be trodden under foot by antichrist, for 42 month.

Rev. 13:5 “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two month.”

And again, the same length of time is mentioned in years in the book of Daniel.

Dan. 7:25 “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”

Whether you count in month, or years, it all ads up 1,260 days; only God counts a year for a day, or 1,260 years, the length of antichrist’s reign. The two witnesses were witnessing all through his reign, and far beyond. This shows us that these two witnesses are not two individuals.

v. 4  “These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the god of the earth.”  

Hear the two witnesses are called olive trees and candlesticks. Olive trees are the source of the oil; the oil symbolizes God’s Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is what gives us understanding, and we receive the Holy Spirit and understanding by reading the two witnesses, the Old and the New Testament; they are the two witnesses, the Word of God. A candlestick holds up the candle so when the candle is lit it can light up the dark. The saints, the real witnesses or candles, received their faith and strength from the two witnesses to stand before the god, ruler, of the earth, Satan.

2 Cor. 4:4 “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not…”

Jesus spoke of these two witnesses too.

John 5:39 “Search the scriptures; (Old Testament) for in them ye thing ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify (witness) of me.”
Mat. 24:14 “And this gospel (New Testament), of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

Does anyone taken the next verse literal?

Rev. 11:5 “And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.”

God would never turn a human being into a fire-breezing dragon. However, if you remain an enemy of God during the millennium, you will be destroyed in the lake of fire. The hurt you can do to the word of God, the two witnesses, is not believing it; and that will cause you the greatest hurt.

v. 6 “These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have powers over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”

In the days of Moses and Elijah, the days of their prophecy, Elijah stopped the rain for three and a half years during the time of his prophecy.

Luke 4:25 “But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Eli’as, when the heaven was shut up three years and six month, when great famine was throughout all the land.”

Moses came to Pharaoh with Gods demand to let his people go; when he refused to listen, he had to suffer the consequences; read Exodus chapters 7 – 12. If we don’t listen to his Word we will suffer likewise: hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, floods, droughts, etc. Again, God would not give any one human that kind of power to do as he pleases.
             
Rev. 11:7 “And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.”  

The two witnesses, the Old and the New Testament, are what gave the saints strength, what they relied on, and put their faith and trust in, even gave their life for. The work of the two witnesses was finished when the persecution of antichrist stopped. But the witnessing never stopped. What is killing the two witnesses is the beast, the government. I thing its no secret that no worldly government has any use for religion; it is, however, a useful and tolerated nuisance. They help keep people in check with their believes; and sometimes with their superstition. Even the Romans knew that they allowed every conquered nation to practice their religion as long as they would pay homage to the emperor. Christianity is a government’s worst enemy; it demands honesty, morality, and accountability; at least it used too. And the beast that came out of the bottomless pit, the “League of Nation” now the “United Nations”, is not in support of it. They are in fact trying to kill the two witnesses by supporting the attempt to make this world a secular world.

v. 8 “And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”

Most people would assume that this great city is Jerusalem; it is not. For one thing Jesus was crucified outside the city. This city is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. What Egypt and Sodom symbolize is sin and perversion. In other words, this great city is the world, Satan’s world. That is where Jesus was crucified. There are no real bodies lying in the streets either. The dying of the two witnesses is happening in the bodies of them that call themselves Christians but pay no attention to the Word of God.

v. 9 “And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.”  

The whole world can see what is happening. The killing off of the two witnesses is evidenced every night by the news, in the entire world. Morality and decency are decreasing immorality, and crime is increasing. There is no real life in people; they are the dead bodies not quite ready for burial yet; but as the three and a half days indicate, a fraction when you compare them to the 1,260 years of antichrists reign, this condition will last only a short time; already people are beginning to realize what is happening. But for now;

v. 10 “And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.”

People are so happy to sin freely, to do as they please, and not have to feel bad embarrassed or ashamed; every body is doing it, no more restrictions. Who wants to listen to those two prophets anyway? Lets have some fun instead; even the beast is on our side. People no longer demand accountability from our leaders, so they don’t have to fear they will be held accountable either.
 
v.
11 “And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.”

We do now live in the very last days of our time; people are sensing it and are fearful, not knowing what to believe or what will happen. So they flock into churches and hope for the rapture that will never come. Some people are beginning to stand up for the two witnesses and are looking for God’s Spirit, for life. This is not what the beast wants, and regrettably not enough people demand a change. Government fears changes for the better; the beast wants to be in control.  

v. 12 “And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.”

If we understand that no one goes to heaven, than we should know that this is meant metaphorical. God has promised protection to those that love him in the day of his wrath.

Zeph. 2:3 “Seek ye the LORD all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness; it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’s anger.”

A cloud usually hides what is behind it, and that is the meaning of verse 12; God will protect you, hide you from his wrath. Not that he is going to take you to heaven; this has nothing to do with the rapture, only with the safety of those that have God’s Holy Spirit. His call will be a call to safety, not to heaven. The enemies of God will become aware of that because the wrath is on them.

Rev. 11:13 “And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.”

This great earthquake is how God will punish the world. Whether it is one big earthquake really makes no different; God has many options; what is important is that this shaking of the earth does affect the entire world. The tenth of the city, what city? The world is the city; remember verse 8? Also the number seven is God’s number of perfection; seven, therefore, is the perfect thousands of men slain; and if a tenth of the world is destroyed? How many would be the perfect thousand killed? Those that are killed outright may be the lucky ones. Consider the disasters we have experienced, hurricanes, tornados, tsunamis, ect. how long did people have to wait till help arrived? Only then, there will be no help, from anywhere. It will be God’s wrath on all mankind.  

Is. 13:11 “And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.”

Georg

[lineon]

Hi Georg

Thanks for your interpretation of Revelations,
you have made it more complicated and more simple,
if you know what I mean.
Georg, you must remember it is only a opinion
we humans need proof.

How did you come about your thoughts concerning Revelations?

Lineon

[Cindy]

lineon

I understand that to you and others, it is only an opinion, to me, it is much more.
People want prove, in Jesus time they ask for a sign; I can not give you prove, other than historical data, and show you how they match up with scripture.There are times when the bible speaks literal, and there are times when the bible speaks allegorically; it has to make sense to the overall picture.

World history has always interested me, not so much religion, in fact, I did not read the bible till I was 45. When I started to read, very little at first, I noticed many discrepancies in what the bible was saying, and in what I had learned in church (Catholic church).
I decided to believe the bible because I reasoned, if the bible did not have the truth, then who would?

In our early years of marriage, I had collected a set of “Time Life” history books, and a set of “Encyclopedia Britannica”; they were my source of checking out historical data.
By the time I retired in 2002, my interest in the bible had grown to the point, were now I would study for up to four hours in the morning, every morning. I also knew that with my academical background; my school years were during and right after WW2; I would not get very far, and so I took these next three scriptures very much to heart.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

These things I began to work on first, but just as important is it to remember the next two.

Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

I would never start my studies without first asking God for his wisdom, and to bless my study.
I would write key scriptures down for easy reference, and notes from my history books; as they began to increase I got the idea to separate them by subject. All together I worked on it for about six years.

There is something else I learned over the years, what I have proven to myself, I can not prove to any one else; Paul said, we live by faith, not by sight; how can I show you what I have become to believe by faith.
I have also learned that I carrie no responsibility to prove to you anything, at best, I have a responsibility to share with you what I have learned.

Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Georg

[lineon]

Quote (Cindy @ May 22 2009,03:03)

There is something else I learned over the years, what I have proven to myself, I can not prove to any one else; Paul said, we live by faith, not by sight; how can I show you what I have become to believe by faith. I have also learned that I carrie no responsibility to prove to you anything, at best, I have a responsibility to share with you what I have learned.

Hi Georg

I do not think you have wasted your time
in the study of revelation. I have definitely
gotten something out of it, and I do believe
our Lord helps us individually, you can be my
signpost I can be your signpost but your salvation
is in your own hands.

Thanks again Lineon.

[Cindy]

Lineon

You're right, and you're welcome.

Georg

[Proclaimer]

Hi Georg.

I am sure that you are aware of the following scripture and you must by now have an answer for it. Forgive me if you have already given it, but if you could explain how it fits to me, then that would be appreciated.

Matthew 24:23
At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.

It seems on the outset that it is saying that if anyone tells you that Christ has returned then do not believe them because when he returns everyone will know he has and no one will need to be told.

If this is indeed what that scripture is basically saying, then it is warning me to not listen to your teaching that Christ has already returned.

How do others understand that scripture?

[Proclaimer]

Matthew 24:22-28
22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

OK, from the above, I can deduct the following:

1) The time being spoken of is a time when no flesh will survive because of the tribulation of that time. Surely that time is not now. Yes there is much bloodshed in the world, but only in pockets.

2) For there will be many false Christs and prophets. OK, we could say that this is today and yesterday. But it will probably be more profound in the future.

3) If any says Christ has appeared, then they are wrong because the return of the son of man will be as lightning that strikes from one hemisphere to the other. In other words quite spectacular and obvious.

So the problem I have right now with your interpretation of a Christ who has already returned is that it seems to advised against in Matthew.

How do others see Georg's teaching on the return of Christ in the 1900s in light of these verses in Matthew?

And Georg, how do you see your teachings in light of Matthew 24:22-28?

[Cindy]

Quote (t8 @ May 25 2009,22:18)

Hi Georg. I am sure that you are aware of the following scripture and you must by now have an answer for it. Forgive me if you have already given it, but if you could explain how it fits to me, then that would be appreciated. Matthew 24:23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. It seems on the outset that it is saying that if anyone tells you that Christ has returned then do not believe them because when he returns everyone will know he has and no one will need to be told. If this is indeed what that scripture is basically saying, then it is warning me to not listen to your teaching that Christ has already returned. How do others understand that scripture?

t8

We have had cults here in America, were their leaders convinced their followers, they were Christ.
Over the centuries ministers were convinced Christ would return on certain dates, people believed them, sold their possessions, and waited for the return, nothing happened.
We don't really know how much of this deception is going on. Jesus told us, don't go anywhere, if some one tells you he is here or there, why? because his return wont be noticed.
The bible tells me that he has returned, it is not his return that will be seen, it is the beginning of his reign when every eye will see him coming in the cloud. That will happen after the third and final tribulation for the Israelites.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This tribulation is the invasion of Israel, spoken of by Zechariah.

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

If you been watching the NEWS, you know we are not to far from that to happen.
Evey time some one tells you something out of the bible, you should check it out, it does not mean you should not listen.

Georg

[lineon]

We all know our Lord is alive, but only spiritually.

1Pe 1:3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! God has given us a new birth because of his great mercy. We have been born into a new life that has a confidence which is alive because Jesus Christ has come back to life.

I also believe He will come back with a loud fanfare.
It will be so spectacular that unbelievers will become believers,
but in spite of the return of our Lord Jesus there will
still be billions of unbelievers.

Lineon

[Cindy]

Quote (t8 @ May 25 2009,22:34)

Matthew 24:22-28 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 “So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. OK, from the above, I can deduct the following: 1) The time being spoken of is a time when no flesh will survive because of the tribulation of that time. Surely that time is not now. Yes there is much bloodshed in the world, but only in pockets. 2) For there will be many false Christs and prophets. OK, we could say that this is today and yesterday. But it will probably be more profound in the future. 3) If any says Christ has appeared, then they are wrong because the return of the son of man will be as lightning that strikes from one hemisphere to the other. In other words quite spectacular and obvious. So the problem I have right now with your interpretation of a Christ who has already returned is that it seems to advised against in Matthew. How do others see Georg's teaching on the return of Christ in the 1900s in light of these verses in Matthew? And Georg, how do you see your teachings in light of Matthew 24:22-28?

t8

What your doing is exactly right, question what I say.
Mat. 24:21, is Jesus prophesying the second, and worst tribulation for the Jews; you also read about it in Jer. 30:7, and in Dan. 12:1. You know, there can only be one worst time for the Jews. That time occurred during Hitler's reign.
Verse 22, had Hitler won the war, there would be no flesh/Jew alive today.
Verse 24, false Christs, and false prophets began to appear right after Christs death. Jesus here is mainly referring to “the” Antichrist in Rev. 13.
You know, lightening does not shine from the east to the west, but the sunrise does.

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Georg

[Cindy]

Quote (lineon @ May 26 2009,03:08)

We all know our Lord is alive, but only spiritually. 1Pe 1:3  Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! God has given us a new birth because of his great mercy. We have been born into a new life that has a confidence which is alive because Jesus Christ has come back to life. I also believe He will come back with a loud fanfare. It will be so spectacular that unbelievers will become believers, but in spite of the return of our Lord Jesus there will still be billions of unbelievers.   Lineon

lineon

What do you mean by, “but only spiritually”?

If Jesus Christ were to appear in all his glory, we all would be blinded, just as Paul was; because.

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

His countenance is brighter then the sun, that is why he comes in clouds, or behind clouds, Mat. 24:30.

Georg

[lineon]

Hi Georg

I am a spiritual human and materialistic human

1Co 15:44 When buried, it is a physical body; when raised, it will be a spiritual body. There is, of course, a physical body, so there has to be a spiritual body.

I believe our Lord is with me, He gives me strength [spiritually]
He gives me hope [spiritually] He grants me grace [spiritually +
materialistically]

Our Lord is with us unseeingly [spiritually]

Lineon

[Cindy]

lineon

You are a physical human being, with a mind that is spiritually concerned.
In 1 Cor. 15:44, Paul acknowledges that there are two natures, one physical, the other spiritual. The part were he says, when the physical body dies it will be raised a spiritual body, applies only to the saints who come up in the first resurrection; the rest of us will be raised in a new physical body.

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:

What a great promise.
You are right as Jesus in us is concerned, he said, if you love me, the Father and I will come and make our abode in you; that is, be with you in spirit.

Georg

[Author]

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