The Servant of God

Participant

Hi CB,
If OUR GOD calls Christ 'God' that should not be inferred that Christ has become for US a new deity.
We have ONE GOD.
God calls many beings GOD in scripture and it does not mean we should swerve from our devotion to Him.
Christ told us true worshippers worship the Father and I think we should agree with the Lord Jesus who is our master.

May 1, 2007 at 9:55 pm#51167

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2007,09:03)

By this logic if Christ called the Father God then we should not follow his example either right?

May 1, 2007 at 10:18 pm#51170

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,16:42)

Quote (942767 @ May 01 2007,12:38)

Hi WJ:

The following scripture that you have quoted explains it very well:

Hebrews 1:
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, *through whom also He made the world*. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature (Substance), and *upholds all things by the word of His power*. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,;

You say:

Either you believe that God lied in Isa 45:18 or you believe that Yeshua is God as John 1:1-3 shows.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I have told you that I believe that Jesus is God in that he is the express image of God's person. God is not a liar, and I don't believe that you are either but I do believe that you are misinterpreting scripture.

God Bless

Sorry, not meaning to put words in your mouth.

However I dont see how Isa 45:18 can be misinterpreted.

It very plainly says God himself created the heavens I am the LORD and there is none else.

Again, God would have to be a liar, or the scrpitures are not true in light of John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16,17 and Heb 1:3 and 1:10.

Or the scriptures harmonize by seeing Jesus for who he is.

One God with the Father and the Spirit.

Please tell me if there is another way of seeing these scriptures.

Blessings

Hi WJ:

Isaiah

45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Genesis 1
1:1
In the beginning God created * the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

1 Co 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made * a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

WJ, it is not Isaiah 45:18 that you are misinterpreting. There is only ONE GOD and there is no other God besides him. The misinterpretation is of John 1:1-3, Col 1:15-17, and Hebrews 1:3.

Jesus is not God in the sense that you are saying. There is only one God as Ephesians 4:6, 1 Co 8:6, 1 Ti 2:5 which have already been quoted state this.

Jesus is a man but not just any old ordinary man, he is the Only begotten Son of God, but nevertheless a man. But he is the finished product of what God intended for man in the beginning of creation, and God made every thing that he made with him in mind. He is God's heir and we who in the body of Christ are joint heirs with him. Jesus is God in that he is the express image of God's person as Hebrews 1:3 states.

One other scripture that I can quote that may help you to understand this is below:
And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5:5
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
5:6
As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
5:7
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and * * supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

We who are born again Christians should be manifesting God's character as we learn to apply God's Word in our daily life. We are not God, but we like Jesus are children of the Most High God. Jesus is our brother. 1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Hebrews

2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little * * lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
2:12
Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
2:13
And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
2:15
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
2:18
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

God Bless

May 1, 2007 at 10:23 pm#51171

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2007,09:55)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2007,09:03)

By this logic if Christ called the Father God then we should not follow his example either right?

Hi W,
Christ actually did more than call his father God.
He said he is
“MY GOD”.
Just as FOR US there is ONE GOD, the same GOD as Jesus worshiped and prayed to.
Nowhere does God call Jesus “MY GOD”

May 1, 2007 at 11:09 pm#51175

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ May 01 2007,15:45)

Hi 94,

Thanks for allowing me to take part in your discussion.

I do not believe there are any Scriptures that say God is eternally greater than Jesus. I know of one that says the Father was greater than Jesus before the cross, but at the time Jesus was even lower than the angels, so I don't believe it to be an eternal superiority.

I don't know what CultBuster means by “deity,” but using the conventional meaning of the term, god, then I disagree with him. There is only one God, and He is the only Deity. I do, however, believe that Cult Buster says “deity” with the meaning of “person who is God,” in which case I agree with him, for the Scriptures plainly testify that there are three who are God.

Do you believe that Jesus is only a man, like you and me?

You don't see a contradiction between YHWH creating the universe by Himself, and also creating it through Jesus?

Tim

Hi Tim2:

I believe that the rules of this forum is that there is not private discussion so that any one can join a discussion directed to some one else, but I am always happy to discuss the scriptures with any one who comes to the discussion with an open mind.

When we disagree in the scriptures then obviously one of us has misinterepreted the scriptures, and if it is me, then I want to be corrected. I don't want to mislead any one in God's Word.

You say:

I do not believe there are any Scriptures that say God is eternally greater than Jesus.

What does “above all” mean to you in the following scripture?

4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

You say:

There is only one God, and He is the only Deity. I do, however, believe that Cult Buster says “deity” with the meaning of “person who is God,” in which case I agree with him, for the Scriptures plainly testify that there are three who are God.

My response is that you are saying the same thing as he and that there are three dieties. Three persons that are God. Hebrew 1:3 states that Jesus is the express image of God's person, and so he is God in that he manifests God's character though his life, and so he is not God in the sense that you are saying. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and not a third person. Is your spirit another person different than yourself?

1 Co 2:9f
But as it is written *, Eye hath not seen, nor * * ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

You ask:

Do you believe that Jesus is only a man, like you and me

The scriptures say that Jesus is a man just like you and me, but not just any ordinary man, he is the Only begotten Son of God, but nevertheless a man.

1 Ti 2:5 states

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS;”

You ask:

You don't see a contradiction between YHWH creating the universe by Himself, and also creating it through Jesus?

I don't see any contradiction in this. He created the universe by Himself with Jesus and those who would be reconciled to Him through Jesus in mind. God made man in his own image, and Jesus is the finished product of what God intended in the beginning, and we who are in the body of Christ will also be like him when God is finished with us.

3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein * * dwelleth righteousness.

God Bless

May 2, 2007 at 12:30 am#51185

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 02 2007,10:18)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,16:42)

Quote (942767 @ May 01 2007,12:38)

Hi WJ:

The following scripture that you have quoted explains it very well:

You say:

Either you believe that God lied in Isa 45:18 or you believe that Yeshua is God as John 1:1-3 shows.

God Bless

Sorry, not meaning to put words in your mouth.

However I dont see how Isa 45:18 can be misinterpreted.

It very plainly says God himself created the heavens I am the LORD and there is none else.

Again, God would have to be a liar, or the scrpitures are not true in light of John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16,17 and Heb 1:3 and 1:10.

Or the scriptures harmonize by seeing Jesus for who he is.

One God with the Father and the Spirit.

Please tell me if there is another way of seeing these scriptures.

Blessings

Hi WJ:

Isaiah

Genesis 1
1:1
In the beginning God created * the heaven and the earth.

1 Co 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made * a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

WJ, it is not Isaiah 45:18 that you are misinterpreting. There is only ONE GOD and there is no other God besides him. The misinterpretation is of John 1:1-3, Col 1:15-17, and Hebrews 1:3.

Jesus is not God in the sense that you are saying. There is only one God as Ephesians 4:6, 1 Co 8:6, 1 Ti 2:5 which have already been quoted state this.

Hebrews

God Bless

Sorry 94

You say its misinterpretation of John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16,17 and Heb 1:3 and 1:10.

Besides a whole mess of what I believe you just did is misinterpret these. I will only touch on one point.

Is 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; *God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.

Do you see in the above verse any room for any one else involved in the creation other than YHWH?

“God Himself” “There is none else”.

The writers of the scriptures were strict Monotheistic Jews that new the Hebrew scriptures and also were eye witnesses of the Lord.

Paul who wrote Colosians was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and yet he mentioned Yeshua as being the one by whom all things were created, and he was before all things and by him all things consist.

Did Paul and John who also wrote John 1:1-3 not know the Hebrew scriptures that says that God alone created all things?

Yet they include Yeshua as the one by whom all things were created.

And John as well as Paul and Peter and Luke and T
homas all ascribe “Theos” to Yeshua.

Can you see the problem here for Monotheistic Jews if they did not believe that Yeshua is God, one with the Father?

So again, you havent answered my question.

May 2, 2007 at 12:33 am#51187

Tim2

Participant

Quote

You don't see a contradiction between YHWH creating the universe by Himself, and also creating it through Jesus?

Hi 94,

So you believe that God had Jesus in mind when He created the universe, but Jesus did not yet exist?

In any event, the statements in the New Testament that Jesus created all things, and that all things are through Him (John 1:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10) are irrefutable proof that Jesus is God. For God declares, “I, YHWH, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself and spreading out the earth all alone.” (NASB). When God says He did it by Himself, He is denying that He did it through anyone else.

Likewise, when Paul says, “All things are from Him and through Him and for Him,” in Romans 11:36, He is ascribing praise to God alone. So when He says all things are through Jesus (1 Corinthians 8:6), either Paul is contradicting Himself, or He is declaring that Jesus is God.

Tim

May 2, 2007 at 12:57 am#51194

Unisage

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2007,12:30)

Quote (942767 @ May 02 2007,10:18)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,16:42)

Quote (942767 @ May 01 2007,12:38)

Hi WJ:

The following scripture that you have quoted explains it very well:

You say:

Either you believe that God lied in Isa 45:18 or you believe that Yeshua is God as John 1:1-3 shows.

God Bless

Sorry, not meaning to put words in your mouth.

However I dont see how Isa 45:18 can be misinterpreted.

It very plainly says God himself created the heavens I am the LORD and there is none else.

Again, God would have to be a liar, or the scrpitures are not true in light of John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16,17 and Heb 1:3 and 1:10.

Or the scriptures harmonize by seeing Jesus for who he is.

One God with the Father and the Spirit.

Please tell me if there is another way of seeing these scriptures.

Blessings

Hi WJ:

Isaiah

Genesis 1
1:1
In the beginning God created * the heaven and the earth.

1 Co 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made * a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

WJ, it is not Isaiah 45:18 that you are misinterpreting. There is only ONE GOD and there is no other God besides him. The misinterpretation is of John 1:1-3, Col 1:15-17, and Hebrews 1:3.

Jesus is not God in the sense that you are saying. There is only one God as Ephesians 4:6, 1 Co 8:6, 1 Ti 2:5 which have already been quoted state this.

Hebrews

God Bless

Sorry 94

You say its misinterpretation of John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16,17 and Heb 1:3 and 1:10.

Besides a whole mess of what I believe you just did is misinterpret these. I will only touch on one point.

Do you see in the above verse any room for any one else involved in the creation other than YHWH?

“God Himself” “There is none else”.

The writers of the scriptures were strict Monotheistic Jews that new the Hebrew scriptures and also were eye witnesses of the Lord.

Paul who wrote Colosians was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and yet he mentioned Yeshua as being the one by whom all things were created, and he was before all things and by him all things consist.

Did Paul and Jo
hn who also wrote John 1:1-3 not know the Hebrew scriptures that says that God alone created all things?

Yet they include Yeshua as the one by whom all things were created.

And John as well as Paul and Peter and Luke and Thomas all ascribe “Theos” to Yeshua.

Can you see the problem here for Monotheistic Jews if they did not believe that Yeshua is God, one with the Father?

So again, you havent answered my question.

I dont want to burst bubbles There are well over 140 some thing verse that God alone did the Creation in the Beginning.

Now the question should be is the Apostles refering to the Creation of God in the Beginning or the New Heaven and the New Earth that will be created?

How was Jesus is the First and the Last? And did not Jesus say in MY Father House he has many Mansion and I shall go and perpare a place for you? The Kingdom of God will be right here on this New Earth.Churches they do not teach this, let us examined another, which is the role of the Chief Priest. Jesus, would rebuilt the Temple, when He returns and would be the One who will administer the daily Sacrifices. Read the temple layout or read Hebrew 9:1-28 also the future Temple, Ezekiel 44:1-31. God Spirit, would be in the holy of holies, the inner room, then Jesus will administer the worship of God His Father.Now think for your self,will Jesus then be Worshipping Himself ? Again read Rev 5, who sat on the throne?, then who is the Lamb?.

May 2, 2007 at 1:17 am#51196

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ May 02 2007,12:33)

Quote

You don't see a contradiction between YHWH creating the universe by Himself, and also creating it through Jesus?

Hi 94,

So you believe that God had Jesus in mind when He created the universe, but Jesus did not yet exist?

Tim

Hi Tim2:

You ask:

So you believe that God had Jesus in mind when He created the universe, but Jesus did not yet exist?

And my response is that he did not exist as a sentient person. God made everything that he made, and yes, he did it by himself, as Genesis 1:1 states, but he made everything that he made with the last Adam in mind. He made everything by him (with him in mind) and for him (he is God's heir). The first Adam was made a living soul or person, but his spirit had not been formed by God. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. Jesus' spirit was formed through obedience to God's Word as he applied it in his daily life. And we are made the righteousness of God in him (that is in that spirit).

But I believe that you evaded some my questions posed to you in my last post to you. Is your spirit a different person than you?

There is only One God and Jesus is not God in the sense that you are saying.

Joh 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

God Bless

May 2, 2007 at 1:40 am#51197

Participant

Hi WJ:

You ask:

Is 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; *God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.

Do you see in the above verse any room for any one else involved in the creation other than YHWH?

And my response is no I do not. Jesus did not exist as a sentient person in the beginning.

God Bless

May 2, 2007 at 1:44 am#51198

Participant

Hi Tim2:

Also, you did not say what “above all” means to you in Ephesians 4:6.

God Bless

May 2, 2007 at 3:43 am#51199

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 02 2007,13:17)

Quote (Tim2 @ May 02 2007,12:33)

Quote

You don't see a contradiction between YHWH creating the universe by Himself, and also creating it through Jesus?

Hi 94,

So you believe that God had Jesus in mind when He created the universe, but Jesus did not yet exist?

Tim

Hi Tim2:

You ask:

So you believe that God had Jesus in mind when He created the universe, but Jesus did not yet exist?

But I believe that you evaded some my questions posed to you in my last post to you. Is your spirit a different person than you?

There is only One God and Jesus is not God in the sense that you are saying.

Joh 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

God Bless

Hi 94,
Did Adam not have a spirit?
Then he was not a man.
He was not alive.

There was no fault in the breath of God given to him IMHO

May 2, 2007 at 4:36 am#51204

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 02 2007,13:40)

Hi WJ:

You ask:

Do you see in the above verse any room for any one else involved in the creation other than YHWH?

And my response is no I do not. Jesus did not exist as a sentient person in the beginning.

God Bless

John 1:3,10 says…
3 *All things were made by him; and *without him* was not any thing made that was made*.
10 He was in the world, and *the world was made by him*, and the world knew him not.

Do you see anything here that even slightly says that God had Yeshua in mind when he made the world?

Sorry, I am through with this talk. You are to far away from scripture for me.

Blessings to you though!

May 2, 2007 at 4:40 am#51205

Tim2

Participant

Hi 94,

Sorry, I wasn't trying to evade. I read those points but forgot about them while responding.

My spirit is not a different person than me. But grammar tells me that the Spirit is a person, for in John 14:16 the Spirit is called the Parakletos, which by definition is a person, a Comforter, as opposed to paraklesis, which is impersonal and means comfort. And I know that the Spirit is not the Father because Jesus says the Father will send the Holy Spirit to them in 14:26, at the same time Jesus is saying He will leave the disciples to be with the Father.

I don't believe there is a “sense” in which someone can be God. He either is God or isn't God.

Ephesians 4:6 says God the Father is over all things, “epi panton.” Jesus is not a panta because all panta were made through Him (Colossians 1:16), and He is before all panton (Colossians 1:17). Amazingly, Paul says in Romans 9:5 that Jesus is “epi panton,” the same thing He says about the Father!

Tim

May 2, 2007 at 4:49 am#51206

Participant

Quote (Unisage @ May 02 2007,12:57)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2007,12:30)

Quote (942767 @ May 02 2007,10:18)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,16:42)

Quote (942767 @ May 01 2007,12:38)

Hi WJ:

The following scripture that you have quoted explains it very well:

You say:

Either you believe that God lied in Isa 45:18 or you believe that Yeshua is God as John 1:1-3 shows.

God Bless

Sorry, not meaning to put words in your mouth.

However I dont see how Isa 45:18 can be misinterpreted.

It very plainly says God himself created the heavens I am the LORD and there is none else.

Again, God would have to be a liar, or the scrpitures are not true in light of John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16,17 and Heb 1:3 and 1:10.

Or the scriptures harmonize by seeing Jesus for who he is.

One God with the Father and the Spirit.

Please tell me if there is another way of seeing these scriptures.

Blessings

Hi WJ:

Isaiah

Genesis 1
1:1
In the beginning God created * the heaven and the earth.

1 Co 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made * a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

WJ, it is not Isaiah 45:18 that you are misinterpreting. There is only ONE GOD and there is no other God besides him. The misinterpretation is of John 1:1-3, Col 1:15-17, and Hebrews 1:3.

Jesus is not God in the sense that you are saying. There is only one God as Ephesians 4:6, 1 Co 8:6, 1 Ti 2:5 which have already been quoted state this.

Hebrews

God Bless

Sorry 94

You say its misinterpretation of John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16,17 and Heb 1:3 and 1:10.

Besides a whole mess of what I believe you just did is misinterpret these. I will only touch on one point.

Do you see in the above verse any room for any one else involved in the creation other than YHWH?

“God Himself” “There is none else”.

The writers of the scriptures were strict Monotheistic Jews that new the Hebrew scriptures and also were eye witnesses of the Lord.

Paul who wrote Colosians was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and yet he mentioned Yeshua as being the one by whom all things were created, and he was before all things and by him all things consist.

Did Paul and John who also wrote John 1:1-3 not know the Hebrew scriptures that says that God alone created all things?

Yet they include Yeshua as the one by whom all things were created.

And John as well as Paul and Peter and Luke and Thomas all ascribe “Theos” to Yeshua.

Can you see the problem here for Monotheistic Jews if they did not believe that Yeshua is God, one with the Father?

So again, you havent answered my question.

I dont want to burst bubbles There are well over 140 some thing verse that God alone did the Creation in the Beginning.

Now the question should be is the Apostles refering to the Creation of God in the Beginning or the New Heaven and the New Earth that will be created?

Does Jn 1:3
Sound like a new heavens and new earth.

John 1:3
*All things* were made *by him*; and *without him* was not *any thing made* that was made.

“Without him was not anything made that was made.”

Anything means everything and we and planet earth as we know it is part of the everything.

10 He was in the world, and *the world was made by him*, and the world knew him not.

What world is it talking about here?

Burst bubbles, all you are doing is blowing a lot of bubbles.

Sorry, but I think you have been listening to to much of APs heretical teachings.

IMHO

May 2, 2007 at 4:52 am#51207

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ May 02 2007,16:40)

Hi 94,

Sorry, I wasn't trying to evade. I read those points but forgot about them while responding.

I don't believe there is a “sense” in which someone can be God. He either is God or isn't God.

Tim

Excellent points!

Blessings!

May 2, 2007 at 5:04 am#51210