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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2009,11:49) Georg,
We just figured out what you believe.
But we do not accept it is true.
Nick, who is “WE”Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2009,11:59) Georg,
You may have one believer.
NickYou're not going to tell me who “we” are, and you will keep it a secret who my believer is too, right?
Georg
Hi,
So the second death is for the residue of angelic and human creation in whom was found no good thing.Nick… Greetings!
You appear to be convinced that Natural Israel remains in God’s favor and reject all Scriptural reference that refutes that claim. By so doing, Nick, you negate the sacrifice Jesus made on behalf all mankind.
Both Jesus and the Apostle Paul made it very clear that this arrangement was no longer in effect when they said:
Matthew 21:43 (New American Standard Bible)
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”Luke 3:8 (New American Standard Bible)
“Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.”Galatians 3:28 (New American Standard Bible)
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”The “people producing the fruit of it” (the kingdom) is no longer limited to the Israelite Nation, but encompasses all nations (people from all nations) that believe and obey Christ Jesus by following His lead. Natural Israel has been replaced by Spiritual Israel, those that, like Abraham, have faith in the promises of God and accept Jesus as their redeemer and Son of God. Once you understand these points, you can proceed to the deeper things of God.
God bless!
Georg… Greetings!
I can agree with much of your understanding about the upcoming end of this system of things, but not this comment:
“Rev. 21:8 has no relevance to the previous scripture. These are the kind of people who in this life have done such evil crimes, that after they were resurrected they could not, or would not repent; they ended up in the lake of fire.”
What I was making reference to was the attitudes of those described in this verse, not that it applied directly to Revelation 19:11-21. As you say, “God's wrath on the world is not “the great tribulation”, although there will much tribulation, and very few men are left” which equates to what I have been saying all along… there will be “very few men left.”
Why, then, are there “very few men left?” Because they fit the description of Revelation 21:8 and will not survive the battle of Armageddon when the wicked and ungodly are destroyed. God will not allow these types to enter into the new World Government, else there would be nothing new in the New World, and evil doers would still remain to cause further chaos.
As for the great tribulation not happening, time will tell whether or not that will happen in the near future. I suspect it will, you suspect it won’t. We will watch and see.
God bless!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2009,12:33) Hi,
So the second death is for the residue of angelic and human creation in whom was found no good thing.
NickYou sure have a way with words.
Georg
Quote (samual @ Mar. 02 2009,22:44) Revelation 19:11-21. As you say, “God's wrath on the world is not “the great tribulation”, although there will much tribulation, and very few men are left” which equates to what I have been saying all along… there will be “very few men left.” Why, then, are there “very few men left?” Because they fit the description of Revelation 21:8 and will not survive the battle of Armageddon when the wicked and ungodly are destroyed. God will not allow these types to enter into the new World Government, else there would be nothing new in the New World, and evil doers would still remain to cause further chaos.
SamualI can see why you see a comparison in those scriptures; there is however quite a difference in the outcome.
God's wrath on the world is for their evil doings, just as he has punished his people, the Israelites, for their evil but has not entirely cast them off; they will be given their chance to change their mind and heart once God opens their mind to understand the truth. God's wrath on the world is for the same reason, punish us for our evil, so that we can learn from it, learn the benefit from obeying God; that will happen during the millennium.
Rev. 21:8 on the other hand, are those that would not obey God after their resurrection, during the millennium, their reward will be the second death, this is not the battle of ArmageddonGeorg
PS. Israel is still God's favorite people, if Nick said it, he's right.
Jer 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
Jer 32:38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.That covenant has not yet been made.
Here is what Paul said.Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Hi Samual,
Some truths to ponder
Acts 1:6
So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”Acts 28:20
“For this reason, therefore, I requested to see you and to speak with you, for I am wearing this chain for the sake of the hope of Israel.”
Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,Romans 9:6
But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;Romans 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;Romans 11:26
and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,” THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”Galatians 6:16
And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.Nick and Georg… Greetings!
There are things written that obviously are difficult to comprehend for many that study the Scriptures. The relationship between ancient Israel and God as it was in the past is just one of those.
You made reference to several passages to support your view that Natural Israel remains in God’s favor. Let’s examine a couple of them for clarity:
“Romans 9:6
But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;”This passage from the Apostle Paul draws out more than what you have concluded. As Paul says, “For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel.” And, if you read the first few verses of his comments, you can see what the point was:
Romans 9:1-4 (New American Standard Bible)
“I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises… .”Here Paul conceded that “my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites” as “accursed, separated from Christ” because they did not accept “THE DELIVERER… FROM ZION” who, of course, was Jesus. (Romans 11:26)
The Apostle Peter said the following:
Acts 3:22-23 (New American Standard Bible)
“Moses said, 'THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you. And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’”The Israelites failed to heed that prophet, Jesus, hence the reason for that Nation of Israel losing out on the promises of God, and the necessity of a “New Covenant” that was initiated at the last supper between Jesus and His Disciples. (Luke 22:17-20) That “new covenant” is between God and those Spiritual Israelites who embrace Jesus as the Son of God as the Scripture relates:
1 Peter 2:4-6 (New American Standard Bible)
“And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For this is contained in Scripture: ‘BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.’”When reading about the Israel of God, you must understand that the Scriptures speak of the “New Israel” the new nation consisting of both natural Jew and Greek, just as the Apostle Paul related here:
Galatians 3:28-29 (New American Standard Bible)
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.”God bless!
Samual
The following scriptures speak of natural Israel, and no one else.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.
Eze 36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
Eze 36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
Eze 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Eze 36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.Frankly, I don't see how you can argue with that.
Georg
Hi Samual.
You say
“The Israelites failed to heed that prophet, Jesus, hence the reason for that Nation of Israel losing out on the promises of God, “Not so.
Some of Israel inherited the promise.
Some of Israel repented and followed Jesus Christ
God has never broken His promise nor allowed all of Israel to be lost.It is us who are grafted onto true Israel.
Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.Nick and Georg… Greetings!
What you say is Scripturally true in a sense as can be seen from the following verse:
Revelation 21:14 (New American Standard Bible)
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”As you know, the twelve Apostles were all Israelites, natural Jews, as were many more during the first Century. In that sense, then, “a remnant shall be saved.” Also, the promises of God to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob we fulfilled.
However, you must factor in the “new covenant” that Jesus instituted during the last Passover with those Apostles. That event signified the end of the Mosaic Covenant and began a new relationship with God and Christ Jesus under the Kingdom of God on earth. This arrangement now contained both “Jew and Greek” and that brought another promise of God to Abraham into focus:
Genesis 22:18 (New American Standard Bible)
“In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”Since the Natural Israelites lost out as being an entire Nation that held prominence as priests over the spirituality of the world, now the gentiles (all nations) would play a part of the priesthood. That is the difference between the old and the new. Again, Paul made this point very clear:
Galatians 3:28 (New American Standard Bible)
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”God, through Jesus, brought them together to form the New Jerusalem as stated in the following verse:
Revelation 21:2 (New American Standard Bible)
“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.”This New Jerusalem is made up from people “of all nations” that were “purchased from among men” instead of just the Natural Israelites:
Revelation 14:4 (New American Standard Bible)
“These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.”As can be deduced from these Scriptures, the old Jewish Political System that remains to this day, is no more than another player in the “kings of the earth” that line up against Jesus in the scenario depicted in Revelation 19:11-21.
I know you find that hard to accept, but I am certain of its accuracy in relation to Scripture.
God bless!
Samual
The covenant that was changed at the last supper, was the covenant God made with Israel at Mt. Sinai, generally referred as the “law of Moses”. That covenant had nothing to do with the covenant God made with Abraham.
To stand on, and believe what you say, you would have to reject the scriptures I gave you in my last reply, as untrue.
Rev. 14:4 are the same 144000 as in chapter 7, they are all Israelites. They have not been defiled with other “woman” has nothing to do with sex. Woman is symbolic for “church”, just as God's church, the saints, are the bride of Christ. Other woman means, other churches, other religions. The Israelites were the only people that knew the true God, YHWH.
The remnant of Israel, scattered all over the world, would never have become a nation again, had it not been for God's promise.Georg
Nick
Woman is also symbolic for church.
2Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Georg
Georg,
So in Rev 11
” 1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. “
Do you suggest this is the church somehow producing the head of the church?
Georg,
1Cor 15
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
So far the twinkling of an eye has taken 109 years in your view?
Since you feel you missed out on the first resurrection is your hope now only in WORKS with the risk of the second death if found inadequate-as in Mt 25?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2009,07:26) Georg,
So in Rev 11
” 1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. “
Do you suggest this is the church somehow producing the head of the church?
Nick-odemusHave you ever heard of a church in the wilderness?
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Now, if you are on heart medication, you better take one of them pills first, because this will come as a shock to you; this is the woman in Rev. 12:1, I know you meant to say 12, not 11.
Georg
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