The Second Death

[NickHassan]

Hi,
This is what Jesus says to the churches.

Revelation 2:11
' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

Overcoming is essential.

[samual]

Georg… Greetings!

I have read through your “Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls” Post and will do so again very shortly before I make any comment.

I do have a comment on the remarks you gave to Nick about people posting to state their views and not wanting to learn anything. It strikes me as a bit unfair. Now, I cannot speak for them, but I believe people place their views on boards like this to “test out” their belief, not just to air them for acclaim. Scripturally speaking, they are encouraged to “test the spirits to see whether they are from God.” 1 John 4:1 Also, in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 we are counseled to “examine everything carefully…” making certain that our understanding of God’s Word is “as it ought.” 1 Corinthians 8:2
Anyway, that is my thought on your comment. I don’t mean to criticize, merely to suggest consideration for those that seem set in their belief. (2 Timothy 2:24-26)

God bless!

[Samuel]

I'm not excatly sure what ideas you are trying to establish excatly, to be honest.

Unless, your trying to give some sort of insight to the question of what actually happens to you from the time you die, to the time Jesus comes back?

Which there are many different beliefs on just about any religious topic that you can chose to discuss.

Reguardless, no one really knows what happens for sure.

We know that Lazarus was raised from the dead, but to my knowledge there is not record of his “Experience” of while he was actually dead.

So, one could deduct one of a couple things or reasons why this might be.

1.)  He did not actually have an experience.
2.)  He was not permited to discuss it, or write about it.
     (we know that at least on person was told not to write some things…I.E…John…hint hint…Revelations)
3.)  If he did write about it, it obviously did not make it into the “Cannon”.   (We are finding out now that there are a great many things that did not make it into the Cannon.  The Book of Enoch, The book of Jasher, The Dead Sea Scrolls.   Then you have reading of writers of Josephus, There is extra books in the Catholic Bible, There are other writings that they are finding in the Middle East as well.

We know that a story was told of a man that was actually in a state of tornment.  Weather he was in Hell, Hates, or what we really don't know.  I suppose that it's highly possible that it could be referring to a man in the future, or a man in the past for that manner.  

I've been known to, or at least I've been accused of being a deep thinker.   I tend to get really into what i'm saying, and I have a very poor ability of getting across what i'm actually thinking.

We know that GOD knows whats going to happen in our lives before we do, based on what Jesus told Peter.  That he would deny him thirce before the roster crew.   So this could have been an event in the future perhaps?  With the Rich man in hell?

However, I tend to think that it was not because of the fact that he could see Abraham, and those in his bosom.   So, I tend to think this was a story of a rich man seeing people in paradise.  Obviously, this man was not in paradise.

The most important thing behind all of these things that I'm saying is that this was not a “Flesh And Blood” body.   It was the spirit, the SOUL…if you will.

So, in the grand scheme of things.  Myself or you can speculate all day and for the rest of our lives what we think is the case.  However, we truly do not know for sure.

I believe what you are suggestion is that everyone that dies is in some sort of “Post-Mortem” sleep.   Or maybe it's that you are trying to say that they don't even exist at all technically?   Because it really sounds like from hearing you speak that, the latter is the case in point that you are trying to make.

If that is the case, I would have to say that I agree to disagree.    Not there may be a point at some time where complete destruction, to the point of non-existence is endued.

I'm not sure for certain.

But to hear the story as it is told by most pastors and preachers of the christian movement…this tornment of flames will endure forever, and that you will wind up in a state of eternal tornment.

If this is what you are trying to “Disprove” You are going to have a hard time conviencing people of such.   Mainly because the book states that the flames will not be quenched.  And, I believe the phrases eternal damnation, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire is used at one point.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The second death is the ultimate threat of scripture.
Those who follow the god of this world can meet also his fate.

Rev20
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[samual]

Samual… Greetings!

As you likely are quite aware, the entire Bible contains much metaphoric language, especially the Revelation account by John. But Jesus and the Apostles accepted the Scriptures as the Word of God; and seeing that God never lies, what is written within the Bible, is the truth. However, it does require reasoning to ascertain the facts.

Take the Rich man and Lazarus allegory, for example. The Scriptures make it very clear that there is no consciousness when the soul dies. This point is made many times: Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 Psalms 146:4 Ezekiel 18:4,20.

What Jesus was trying to get across was the fact that there is no way for the dead to change places with the living, that today is the time to make amends for past actions. Once judgment has been passed, there will be no opportunity left to change the verdict.

The Second Death, as it goes, is merely a state of non-existence, where the body dissolves away to dust and never has another chance to live again. It’s gone forever. The 144,000 (Revelation 14:1-5; 20:4-6) that are “purchased from among men” are given immortality and are no longer subject to the Second Death. Their loyalty to God and Christ will never be questioned again. Not so with those of the Second Resurrection. Should they ever rebel against God in the future, they will experience the second death from which there is no further resurrection. They will simply be gone forever. Revelation 20:14-15

Eternal Torment means that their deaths will be forever. God does not literally torture anyone. These are simply metaphoric expression that were written this was to drive home the importance of falling victim to the Second Death.

I hope this helps you see the Truth of God’s Word and its application to our future in God’s Kingdom on earth.

God bless!

[samual]

Georg… Greetings!

I find your work on “The Seven Trumpets and The Seven Bowls” quite fascinating. You have placed all these events in the past with diligence toward historical accounts that seem to line up very well with recorded Scriptural prophecy. However, although I do not profess to understand all the metaphoric dialogue within the Scriptures, and especially the Revelation account, I remain skeptical of some points you listed as having taken place in the past, as well as your conclusions.

Let me examine this comment:

“In Rev. 9:16 we are given a number of 200 million; are we then to assume that the Assyrians had an army exceeding 200 million? The Huns were in fact called an army of horsemen because of their fighting skills on horseback. But if we take this number literal, we should also ask some “literal” questions. Could there have been an army of 200 million men in the 5th century, or any century for that matter? Who would have commanded it? And how? Would such an army have been logistically possible? Would such an army have been necessary? The same questions apply if we think that this is an army of the future. Think about it; in today’s specialized, mechanized, and computerized military of every branch, what country could and would want to mobilize an army that size? Besides, would 200 million soldiers plus their equipment even fit in the Valley of Megiddo?”

Looking back into the timeframe of the “Huns” an army of 200 million, I believe, was very unlikely. (Not that I have any such evidence to support or deny this point.) Dealing with Revelation 9:16, verse 18 states that “a third of mankind was killed by these plagues.” Since I am unaware of any census having been taken during that time, I cannot but suspect that a “third of mankind” being killed was unlikely.

But as for your “literal” question: “Could there have been an army of 200 million men in the 5th century, or any century for that matter?” what about our present time? I am certain that you know that China has an estimated population of 1.3 Billion, most, of which, are combat ready at a moment’s notice. Two hundred Million militants would be easily mustered should the need arise, and even a greater number than that. Depending on geographical evidence of today, could this massive army more aptly apply to our modern day situation, in particular, China and its anti-god communistic values? Revelation 16:12

Your remark, “Great Babylon is symbolic for all false religion” aligns with Scriptural evidence. (Revelation 17 &18) The Preterist View that Babylon The Great was none other than 1st Century Jerusalem and was climaxed in that City’s destruction by the Roman Army, limit’s these events to the Jewish Nation. This wouldn’t cover “all” false religion so I can not agree with their conclusion.

This is your comment taken from your post of the 29th of December 2008:

“The woman sitting on the beast in Rev. 17:3 symbolizes religion/church. Sitting on the seven heads/governments shows that religion has influenced all governments.
The pope is the Antichrist of the Bible, he did everything that Rev. 13 said he would do. He is the image of the beast/Rome; he caused the image to speak/rule; he made war with the saints, persecuted them for 1,260 years. He began to rule in 565 AD, and was dethroned by Napoleon in 1813 AD.

Dan 11:36 And the king (Napoleon) shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god (ruler), and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods (ruler of rulers, the pope), and shall prosper till the indignation (humiliation) be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Napoleon imprisoned the pope in 1809 and made him sign a document, turning the Papal states and other powers over to him, the pope was then released in 1813.”

I do not question your dates of events, just your conclusion. The reason for this is found in the following passage:

Revelation 17:15-16 (New American Standard Bible)
“And he said to me, ‘The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.”

From this passage we can see that it is “peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues” involved during the time of Babylon the Great’s destruction. Not just Rome and France, but “nations.” For that reason I suspect Napoleon was merely a blimp on the chart during the 1800s.
Babylon the Great still sits “As a Queen” (Revelation 18:7) and has yet to be burnt up with fire. (Revelation 17:16) I know that the language is symbolic… true! But the effect of this symbolism will be real. Making Babylon the Great “desolate and naked” as the Scripture relates, can be accomplished by the “ten kings” via such a simple maneuver as taxation. Perhaps as events are playing out these days by the many lawsuits brought against various Christian Denominations because of sexual misconduct practiced over so many decades. But one thing is certain: Babylon will Fall in the near future. (Revelation 18:8)

Your statement: “Mat.24:21 speaks of the greatest tribulation the Jews ever had endure; it happened during the reign of Adolph Hitler, and had Germany won the war, there would be no flesh/Jew alive today.”

As you are aware, some consider the greatest Tribulation the Jews ever endured was in the 1st Century when Roman Armies totally destroyed their Holy City and its temple. But as you say, Hitler wiped out more Jews than the Romans. Still, there’s a problem here. See where the source of that problem resides:

Revelation 7:9 (New American Standard Bible)
“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands… .”

The “great tribulation” spoken of by Jesus at Matthew 24:21 is reiterated here. It must be noted that “this great multitude… from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues” is not restricted to the Israelite Nation. Therefore, the great tribulation referred to must point into the future. I suspect very strongly that that future is not far off.

Do send me your thoughts on this post. God bless!

[Cindy]

Samual

Most preachers I know, and have heard on TV, believe the story of “Lazarus and the rich man” to be true; showing this is proof, that when you die you either go to heaven, or you go to hell.
What has never been explained is, why? Why did the beggar go to heaven, and why did the rich man go to hell? Is being rich a sin? I don't think so, neither is being poor a guarantee you will go to heaven.
There are several things that have been either overlooked, or ignored.
ONE:

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

How can Christ be the first to be resurrected from the dead, when Lazarus was already in heaven waiting for him?
TWO

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

How did Lazarus have his sins forgiven before Jesus had died? Jesus did die for all, that includes Lazarus, and the rich man. What has been left out of this parable, and it is a parable, is the millennium. It is really a warning for the rich. Jesus had said in another place.

Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus tried to demonstrate that with the parable of “Lazarus and the rich man”.
If a rich man is so indulged in his own pleasure as this “rich man” was. He didn't even see the beggar, he had no concern, no feelings, no love for him whatsoever. Then both of them died; what Jesus skip't over, is the waiting in their grave, sleeping, for their resurrection. Referring back to 1 Cor. 15:20.
There are two reasons why the Bible says, sleeping, when you die.
One; there will be an awakening from this death.
Two; you will awake with the same thinking and attitudes as before.
Just a note here Sam., the Bible calls it sleeping, not I.
After your resurrection you have to make some changes, you have to repent. The “rich man” couldn't do that, he was used to have everything at his command, he didn't repent, the result,

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.  

Perhaps we all have different ideas what the lake of fire is, and what torement means. I think of it as a murderer put on death row waiting for his day of execution. I can't imagine what would go through his mind as his day draws nearer, especially if he believes in a burning hell, thinking, that's were he will end up in. That is torment, mentally torment, but not torture. I believe God will give the condemned time to realise what awaits them, eternal death, eternal punishment, not eternal punishing.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.  

This is were the rich man found himself, realizing what he had failed to do, repent; knowing what was waiting for him he started to plead; however, once sentence is pronounced on a sinner, there is no appeal.
The beggar, being humbled all his life had no problem asking God for forgiveness, his gift of God was eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.  

I know one thing, there are a number of scriptures that would be hard to understand what they really mean, if you believe you “have a soul”. I have given previously many scriptures that show, when you're dead you know nothing, you see nothing, you feel nothing; dead means dead, not alive in any way. In 1 Cor. 15, Paul explains the resurrection of the dead, not the living.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

No eternal torement or torture, just ashes.

Georg

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
You say
“The Second Death, as it goes, is merely a state of non-existence, where the body dissolves away to dust and never has another chance to live again. It’s gone forever.”

But scripture says in Rev20
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

“

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
You offer as about the eternal fire

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

This is rather the fate of earth at the return of Jesus, not the lake of fire after the judgement.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This is just another aspect of the first death, not the second.

Mt 13
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Surely this is the second.

[Cindy]

Nick

Show me the scripture that says, we are saved by our works.
No, I did not say eternal fire; why can't you ever stay with what I said, you are a spinner; I will put you on Bill O'Reilly's program, he will stop you from spinning; I said eternal death.
Well, not that this is going to do any good for you, but maybe there are others that read this and will benefit from it.
2 Peter 3:10 is not talking about burning up this planet, or the heavens. Why would God burn up the heavens, notice it says “heavens”, as in plural, many. God's throne is in heaven, there is nothing wrong with his heaven. You have to understand were God's throne is, in heaven, that is the place of all authority. Peter says heavens, and God speaks to the heavens here on earth.

Psa 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

He calls to the heavens from above; so, what are heavens on earth? We have (had) kings that sad on thrones, they had authority over the people. Who else has authority over the people? Churches, ministers, they have spiritual authority over the people, they have control over what they tell them the Bible says; has any one ever challenged a minister, or sued a minister for preaching a false gospel?
The “day of the Lord” is Christs millennium, no one knows when it will start, but all man made religions will pass away, and those who make their living of of their preaching will hurt, make a great noise.
And what are elements? they are our environments, our way of living we have created for our self, all that will burn up with fervent heat, will be destroyed.
Our churches/heavens, and earth/people are reserved for their own destruction.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Peter says,

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

And what is Jesus going to do in the millennium?
Peter tells us.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

There will be new churches, places were Christ will teach us the truth, and a new earth, a righteous way of living, God's way.

Georg

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,

The sons of the resurrection are not saved by works but by their being baptised into Christ and into his righteousness. They have already passed from death to life.[jn5]

Gal3
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Phil3
9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

If you hope to be saved by works then you await the second resurrection and the mercy shown by God because of certain merciful works done for the members of the body of Christ.

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[Cindy]

Nick

Who is talking about the sons of righteousness. Did you not say all the rest of the dead will come up after the millennium? They are the ones we were talking about. For once, stay with the subject, you're going to cause me to loose my crown yet.

Georg

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
Thank you for the clarification.
So you are asking about the second resurrection and salvation by works.

Mt25
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have DONE it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have DONE it unto me.

[Cindy]

Nick

That is work, so is Paul lying when he said?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You say by works, Paul says by faith; these dead don't even know who Christ is, and yet Christ died for them too, so again, how can they get their name into the book of life?
The ones you're talking about, is a different group of people.

Georg

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
Paul was writing to the sons of the resurrection who have already passed from death to life
they do not face the sheep and goat judgement[jn5].

The other sheep in the judgement of mt 25 are not among them.
Listen to them speak and you will know they did not know they were to be saved.

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
Nothing is greater than the sovereign will of God.
Mercy triumphs over judgement

But we are strongly advised to seek to enter the millenial [DAY=1000yrs] of rest and not die hoping for mercy
Heb4

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

[Cindy]

Samual

I appreciate your reply on the seven trumpets.
An army 200 million strong?
I did not say it could not be possible; the question is, would it be necessarily? Also, today were military is being deployed over oceans; do you think a river would cause a problem to cross?
The woman sitting on the beast in Rev. 17:3 is the whore of v. 1, she represents false religion, the many waters she is sitting on, v 15, are all the nations of the world. The beast with seven heads she was sitting on represent the seven empires of the Bible, v. 10. This woman/church is showing to sit on all worldly kingdoms, meaning, all kingdoms have been influenced by false religion.
With all due respect, the nation Israel, or Jerusalem, have nothing to do with the whore of Rev. 17.
If you were to read some books on European history, you would find that the pope ruled over what used to be the western part of the Roman empire; he ruled over kings and princes, with some exceptions. Not until 1813, after the pope was imprisoned by Napoleon, did this change.
The ten horns on the beast are all the kings that make up the beast/government. It is mans last attempt to rule the world by a one world government, the United Nation. Do you think there is a love affair going on between government and religion?
I can for see government revoking tax free status from churches, due to the economic crisis.
Rev. 7:9 is no problem at all, you must have not paid attention what it says.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

“Of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and languishes. They are not all Jews. What John in a vision saw, were all the martyred saints, from all nations; they all had to endure to their end, a tortures and violent end; I consider that coming out of great tribulation. Mat. 24:21 is for the Jews only, the same great tribulation is spoken of in

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

and in

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Jacob is Israel, the children of Daniels people are the Jews, they are God's elect. All three prophecies speak of the worst time ever, each prophecy say, they will be saved out of it; there can only be one worst time, the time during Hitler's reign because had Hitler won the war, there would be no Jew/flesh alive today.
Contrary to popular believe, there is no great tribulation coming, only God's wrath on all evil nations.

Georg

[Cindy]

Nick

God will only show mercy to those that will repent. That is what grace is, undeserved forgiveness, but if you repent and ask God for forgiveness, he will grant it for Christs sake because that is what Christ died for. Therefore, all that come up in the second resurrection, all that are still in their graves, have to first understand what it is they need to repent of. That is what the millennium is for, Christ will teach all mankind with justice, fairness, and righteousness. No one that will be resurrected has any good works, by listening to Christ, and changing, repenting, they will have a chance to get their name into the book of life. Actually very simple if you allow yourself to let “scripture” teach you.

Georg

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
Really?
Abraham did not repent and God chose him and anointed him.
Repentance is the command to all men and we must obey Him but nothing takes away the sovereignty of God

[Cindy]

Nick

So, you're saying, Abraham did not need a savior?
I'm sure you are familiar with Heb. 11, here is what Paul says at the end.

Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

I hope you're not wearing you're sunglasses, I want you to see this; “through faith”, they obtained a good report through faith. And notice something else, they did not receive the promise yet. Who is “us”? The saints, the once that gave their life for Christ. In other words, they would not precede the first resurrection.
No body is taking anything away from God. this is God's plan so all can be saved, not to say that all will be saved, there will be those who want repent, not to mention those that follow Satan at the end of the millennium.
God's mercy can do little for you if you don't repent, God can only forgive you if you ask for it. God is no respecter of person.
And what is it that leads you to repent? is it not hearing and believing the word of God?

I can't hardly wait to see the pretzel you make out of this one.

Georg

[Author]

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