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Samual
Yes there are natural Israelites, and there are spiritual Israelites, but that does not change the meaning of these scriptures.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.These ordinances have not yet departed, nor do I believe they ever will.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
As Paul said, they are God's beloved people for the fathers sake, that is Abraham, Isac, and Jacob.
Because,
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 06 2009,13:19) Georg,
It would be a sad thing to miss this opportunity would it not?Matthew 8:11
“I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
NickThere is no division in the body of Christ, you are either of the body, or you are not.
Mat. 8:11 shows you the result of preaching the gospel in all the world, saints from all nations. But you see, many were called, but few were chosen, why? because not all excepted the wedding invitation.
But what you don't seem to understand is, that there is a group that will inherit the kingdom of God, the saints, and the other group, us humans, will inherit the earth.Georg
Georg,
Sounds like the JW ideas.So are the chosen those who accept the invitation and the called those who do not?
Do the called all respond so that all are actually saved?Where does scripture say only the chosen ones go to the wedding feast?
So which of the two groups you speak of are in the body of Christ?
Is the kingdom of God divided into two parts?You do not seem to see the unity of the plan of God at all.
All is division in your eyes.Nick-odemus
I repeat what I just got done saying on the other post; Twisting what I say must come natural with you!
You speak of division, and have no idea what you are talking about.
You ask:“So are the chosen those who accept the invitation and the called those who do not?”
You don't even know what a ridiculous statement that is. I bet even the Muslim have a better understanding than you.
The rest of your post is just like that, I'll wait till you sober up.Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2009,05:54) Georg,
Sounds like the JW ideas.So are the chosen those who accept the invitation and the called those who do not?
Do the called all respond so that all are actually saved?Where does scripture say only the chosen ones go to the wedding feast?
So which of the two groups you speak of are in the body of Christ?
Is the kingdom of God divided into two parts?You do not seem to see the unity of the plan of God at all.
All is division in your eyes.
Nick-odemusMat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.Georg
Georg… Greetings!
Seeing that there is no inconsistency within the Scriptures, and that Jesus and the Apostles accurately represented the will of God in all their recorded words, I would have you explain to me just what Paul and Jesus meant by saying the following remarks:
Matthew 21:42-43 (New American Standard Bible)
“Jesus said to them, ‘Did you never read in the Scriptures,
'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES?
Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”Galatians 3:28 (New American Standard Bible)
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”Jesus was addressing Jews (Matthew 21:45; Paul was speaking to the congregation in general (Galatians 3:26-29).
If the Natural Jews remain in God’s Favor, then Jesus and Paul must have been mistaken and the Gentiles are still out in the cold. Is that your take? I believe the Scriptures support Jesus and Paul and it is you that have the wrong slant on things. Nevertheless, do explain the variance between Jesus and Paul’s comments and that of your Scriptural references.
God bless!
Samual
Why is it so hard to understand the scriptures I gave you in my last reply to you? I think they are very clear in what they say.
Jesus is the corner stone of the new, spiritual temple. Their rejection of the Messiah opened the way for the rest of the world to have a part in the promises. That was prophesied to Daniel in the 70 weeks, Dan. 9:24. That prophesy in fact foretold when God would poor out his Holy Spirit to the gentiles also, at the end of the 70 weeks, and it was demonstrated by Cornelius, the first gentile to receive the Holy Spirit; but that did not mean God did go back on his promise.Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,The fact that Israel has become a nation again, alone, is proof of that. Do you believe they could have done that on their own?
It is because of their rejection of Christ, that God has invited the world to have part in his kingdom, the spiritual kingdom. That is what the parable of the wedding shows, Mat. 22.
Jesus and Paul are not mistaken; you have to start believing what the scriptures say, not what you have become to believe.Georg
Georg… Greetings!
Your last reply rejected the Scriptural information that refuted the idea that Natural Israel remains in God’s Favor. Both Jesus and the Apostle Paul made the point clear that “all nations” would now be termed New Jerusalem. It isn’t me that is having difficulty understanding the Word of God, but yourself. You are trapped in the idea that Natural Israel of today will be saved from the Day of God’s fierce wrath because of their still being in God’s favor, the idea, of which, was dashed by the words of both Jesus and Paul.
You say: “The fact that Israel has become a nation again, alone, is proof of that. Do you believe they could have done that on their own?”
They did not become a nation again alone; they had the help of the USA and other nations to establish their nation, and that was only due to those nation’s guilt trip for not acting to stop the genocide attempt to wipe the Jews from the planet by Hitler in the mid-1940s. The fact that Israel is again a nation is no proof that God is with them. Just as the ancient Jews dealt with the nations around them rather than obeying God, today’s Jews do likewise. They are merely a part of the ten kings as you will see as events unfold ahead of us.
God bless!
Quote (samual @ Mar. 15 2009,21:23) Georg… Greetings! Your last reply rejected the Scriptural information that refuted the idea that Natural Israel remains in God’s Favor. Both Jesus and the Apostle Paul made the point clear that “all nations” would now be termed New Jerusalem. It isn’t me that is having difficulty understanding the Word of God, but yourself. You are trapped in the idea that Natural Israel of today will be saved from the Day of God’s fierce wrath because of their still being in God’s favor, the idea, of which, was dashed by the words of both Jesus and Paul.
You say: “The fact that Israel has become a nation again, alone, is proof of that. Do you believe they could have done that on their own?”
They did not become a nation again alone; they had the help of the USA and other nations to establish their nation, and that was only due to those nation’s guilt trip for not acting to stop the genocide attempt to wipe the Jews from the planet by Hitler in the mid-1940s. The fact that Israel is again a nation is no proof that God is with them. Just as the ancient Jews dealt with the nations around them rather than obeying God, today’s Jews do likewise. They are merely a part of the ten kings as you will see as events unfold ahead of us.
God bless!
Greetings Sam…..Israel is still scattered to the four corners of the earth and are still not cogniscent of their true indentity…The inhabitants of the country so named Israel for the most part are Jews ( decendents of Judah,Levi and Benjimin)the focal point of scripture is on the city of Jerusalem firstly and the inhabitants thereof as a mater of course…The significants of the migration to Israel since 1945 has prophetic meaning in as much that God has promised that all of Israel will be returned to the land….There is much judgement to be meated out in this land before the peace that we all pray for will befall the people and the land…Jerusalem will be the seat of Gods government and we will all come there to prayer and worship some day….Theodorej… Greetings!
Traveling through this subject matter on Natural and Spiritual Israel according to the Scriptural evidence presented it becomes apparent that misconceptions are easily formed due to the Promises of God to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (a covenant) and the New Covenant between Jesus Christ and the Faithful Followers. It seems difficult for the reader to understand how both old and new covenants can be fulfilled when they appear to run contrary.
You mention (rightly) that Israel “is scattered throughout the four corners of the earth.” This statement is true for both Natural and Spiritual Israel, for neither one can ascertain with certainty their ancestral past. Not only that, but false prophets and teachers on both sides have turned truth inside out to confuse those seeking the purity of God’s Word and intent. But even so, there is purpose behind it. See what the Apostle Paul stated:
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (New American Standard Bible)
“And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”As we can see from the religious views of both Natural Jews and many professed Spiritual Jews, neither believe Jesus to be the Son of God; that truth is hidden from them. The largest part of Christendom have Jesus as part of a Triune God, where all parts are equal. This doctrine, of course, is false as Jesus made clear in so many ways; but the lie separates “those who are perishing” from those who worship God in Spirit and Truth.
When considering the Promises of God to the Natural Jews, God has kept His word. See what the Apostle Paul says:
Romans 9:22-28 (New American Standard Bible)
“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea, ‘I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'” “AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.” Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.”As can be seen, it isn’t the entire Jewish Nation that would listen to or accept Jesus as the Son of God, but a “remnant that will be saved.” And, as you are aware, the Twelve Apostles were Natural Israelites, all in line with God’s Promises.
But what about Jerusalem? When Jesus actually arrives with His heavenly Armies to cleanse this earth of Satanic rulership and unleash the Day of the fierce wrath of God the Almighty against the wicked and ungodly, will “God’s Kingdom on earth” (the seat of government and worship) be centered in Jerusalem as it was before?
We have evidence to the contrary. See what Jesus stated:
John 4:21-22 (New American Standard Bible)
“Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews…. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”Much of what we have been lead to believe is not in harmony with Scripture. Only by digging deeper in the Word of God and by resting our hope on His opening out eyes to Truth will we ever come out of the darkness and into His everlasting light.
God bless!
Hi Samual,
Men do not need now or in the future to go to Jerusalem to worship God.
We who are cleansed and filled are temples.
We offer the sacrifice of praiseNick… Greetings!
What you say is partly true. The reason I caution you ragardling this conclusion is because of what Jesus said in the following parable: Luke 19 about the minas. Check this through and let me know your findings. God bless!
Hi Samual,
Lk19 is the judgement of reward for the reborn sons of God.
They must provide a return on God's investment of His Spirit.Samual
Let me give you a some historical background on Israel, something I have heard no minister mention.
Lev 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
This is the punishment God warned Israel about. All through the period of the Judges and kings, the Israelites rebelled, and disobeyed; God punished them, and then rescued them continually, until he finally made good on his warning.
In 722 BC he had the Assyrian invade and conquer the northern kingdom Israel, and disperse them in all the countries.
In 606 BC, after 23 years of preaching, and warning by Jeremiah.Jer 25:3 From the thirteenth year of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, even unto this day, that is the three and twentieth year, the word of the LORD hath come unto me, and I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye have not hearkened.
God had the Babylonians invade and conquer the southern kingdom Judah. That was the beginning of their seven time punishment; also referred to as, “the time of the gentiles”. A “time” is a year, a year for a day, or 7 x 360 years = 2520 years. That was the length of their punishment, that means it ended in 1914, although their disbursement did not come until 70 AD.
I have given you enough scriptures to show that in spite of it all, God has not cast them off entirely.
No where did I say, Israel will be saved from God's wrath, on the contrary; I have repeatedly said, Jesus prophesied three tribulation periods for the Israelites.
THE FIRST; occurred in 70 AD.Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
THE SECOND; and the worst, occurred during Hitler's reign.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.It was for the elects sake, the Israelites, that the days were shortened, Germany lost the war.
THE THIRD; tribulation is still ahead, Jesus only says what will happen after wards.Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
It is in Zechariah, were you can read what Jesus was referring too.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
This I believe, will also be the time of God's wrath on the entire world
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.Any nation that does not support Israel, is against her.
I believe I have a post on “Israel”, you should read sometime.Georg
Hi Georg,
So the claimed return of Jesus last century you somehow link to this time period?How can you be sure of your ideas?
Hello Nick, I mist you, I was so bored the time you were gone, I went out in my yard and cut down some trees. I hope you had a great time.
There is much more I could have added, but I thought it would be to long.
Yes, Jesus return is very much linked to this time, as he is preparing and training the saints.
The scriptures that give me the prove are Dan. 2:44, Dan. 12:12.
There are more scriptures that show me we are in the very last days of our time, 2 Peter 3:7, 10.Georg
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