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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2008,18:49) An unexpectedly meek Messiah with no political ambitions.
Why was it so “unexpected”?Hmmmm
By the way, the more you ignore my direct question, the more I am convinced that I have a valid point. A point that you are trying to evade. Anyone who follows this thread will see that you are doing quite a dance.
Hi Mandy,
You will have to ask God for details.
Having valid points is not going to get you anywhere.
Panic attacks, tantrums and desperate efforts to please God do not either.He will just direct you back to His beloved Son
And you must decide whether he is a cornerstone or a stumbling stone.With all due respect Nick, I am not panicing nor am I throwing a tantrum. However I am desperate to please God. I'm so desperate that I keep asking the same question over and over again and no believing Christian has the answer! Very curious, indeed.
God has not directed me to his Son. During this time of critical study I have not been directed anywhere. I have jotted down a few questions concerning the written Word of God, however. I am in the process of finding the answers to these questions.
Thank you for at least acknowledging that I have a valid point. It's a pretty HUGE valid point, if you ask me. One that is worth investigating and not just glossing over.
Be prepared in season and out of season to give a reason for why you believe……..
Nick, why do you believe in the second coming of the promised Messiah when it is not written?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2008,01:49) As a gentile you have no backup plan.
Quit using that old fear tactic.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2008,02:36) Hi Mandy,
Why do you expect it to be written in your terms?
Because she wants to believe but there is a huge piece missing?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2008,19:36) Hi Mandy,
Why do you expect it to be written in your terms?
I'll take any terms that are in english.Can you show me?
As I stated in another place, you can pick up hints throughout the synoptic Gospels (not John, it is another work altogether and foreign to any Judaic roots) that Jesus did indeed believe that he was the Messiah to come. Part of the reason that his behavior was not as a military leader was because there were likely severla interpretations of the coming Messiah according to which sect of Judaism you were associated with. The Ebionites and Essenes had a slightly different concept of the coming Messiah which was more spiritual than military.
The strong desire for the coming Messiah took place between the two testaments. Much went on to lead the Jewish people to want to be “delivered”. Don't forget, their history is full of figures who came from God to deliver them from foreign influence. This time, the Jews wanted to be delivered from Roman influence, and the struggles found in the Apocryphal works reflect much of this.
The result was that there were many who said they were the Messiah. Jesus was just one in a long line of those. The others tried to fit the image by military actions, but Jesus was likely working according to the Essenic/Ebionite POV.
It is rather telling that the first person to ever write about Jesus never met him. In Paul's writings, you see so little about the actual life of Jesus but instead a focus on what his death and resurrection were to have accomplished. It was if his life did not count for much but his resurrection was the only important part. The rest of Paul's writings focused more on Paul's teachings with Jesus thrown in to add “power”.
I suppose that after some time, many wanted to know what happened in Jesus' life. I'm sure all sorts of legends were floating around at this point and the first person to try to capture them was the writer of Mark. In Mark, there is nothing about a virgin birth or even an actual witnessed resurrection. Even Paul did not seem to know about the virgin birth because he never once mentioned it.
And what of the miracles that were attributed to Jesus? In the earliest Gospel Jesus was supposed to have said:
- Mar 8:12 Sighing deeply in His spirit, He *said, “Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.”
Yet either we have to accept that Jesus was lying, or that the legend of his life were just that: legends. If Jesus said he was not going to give any signs, why all of the miracles? And why this statement in Acts?
- Act 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know–
The word used here for “sign” is the same exact one used for “signs” in Mar 8:12.
But that does not mean we can't take many of Jesus' sermons to heart. He had much to say and I believe he truly wanted to reform the religion of his people. They just weren't having it. Jesus was encroaching on the territory of the Jewish teachers and they didn't care for it. If he had just been the military Messiah they looked for, they would have rallied behind him. But instead he went for a different kind of deliverance and made too many enemies.
Hi KJ,
How benign of you to accept Jesus as a sincere but deluded man.
You will meet him some day and he may want some explanation.
Do you deny he was empowered by the Spirit of God now?Empowered in what way? To preach with wisdom, or to perform miracles? He said he would not give miracles yet miracles were attributed to him. How do you explain this discrepancy?
If someone came along and said “I want to tell you the teachings of someone” you might send the person packing. But if you try to lure that person to listen to you by telling them this teacher did great acts of power, you might pause to listen. At least in the early centuries because superstition was quite prevalent. After all, people thought various illnesses were the influence of demons.
You need to realize that the supernatural is just the natural without an explanation. To someone 400 years ago, an airplane would be supernatural but it is indeed explainable according to the varous laws of physics. So even if he DID perform some of the miracles, what he did then might not have been considered a miracle even a little time after him.
As to whether I will meet him some day, maybe so. That is my concern not yours. But we have no proof of a true afterlife. No one has crossed back over from the other side to reassure us of its validity. Sometimes it can be a damaging approach to life to focus on the hereafter and be less concerned on the present. Think of how many people you've shunned in this life who might have been a good friend just because of the exclusionary attitude of many religions?
Hi KJ,
Did the prophets perform miracles or were they party tricks?2Kings 5
10And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.11But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.
12Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.
13And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?
14Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.
No idea. I wasn't there. You?
Hercules was said to have performed many feats of strength. Do you believe that happened? If so, why not?
It helps quite a bit. But it would also have helped if there had been mention of Jesus by those who were not followers. The writers had an agenda after all, so a neutral witness would have immensely improved the probability of unwavering doubt.
Hi KJ,
So none of the Prophets spoke the words of God?
So no part of the bible is inspired to you?
Why do you believe in God?There was a movie years ago, wish I could remember the name of it (or maybe it was just an episode on a show), where these guys made up a ficticious character and started spreading rumors about him. Soon everyone that heard of him (the ficticious character) were talking about how great he was, and some acted like they had met him, and others were saying that he liked them, etc. Some of the women were getting excited over him and wanted to date him. Of course they found out later there was no such person but I think you get the picture.
Now I thoroughly believe there was a historical figure who did some of the things that Jesus did. Maybe even much of what Jesus did, who knows. But its like the episode of Spongebob where he says “I knew this guy, who knew this guy, who knew this other guy, who knew this guy, who knew this guy, who knew this guy, and he said…”.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2008,16:17) Hi KJ,
So none of the Prophets spoke the words of God?
So no part of the bible is inspired to you?
Why do you believe in God?
Do we need to believe that God spoke to (or through) some prophet to believe in God? If you think about that, it can actually be a hindrance to a person who never feels God is talking to them! I mean, have you ever heard a voice from heaven?Its odd that many will base their belief in God based on the what is said about Him in a book. I did at one time, but now it is only an aid to knowing how others view God.
So I have come to believe that faith based on the words of prophets is not really faith in God per se, but what a prophet said about God. After all, look at the PKG folks. They seem to based their beliefs around what is written in Ron Weinland's books.
God does not require middle men to communicate with us.
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