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Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 21 2008,18:53) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 29 2007,12:53) What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill? (1) Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1).
(2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa 43:5-6, Isa 27:12-13 & 11:12).
(3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. (Isa 2:4, Isa 11:6, Micah 4:3)
(4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. (Isa 11:9, Isa 40:5, Jer 31:31-34, Zec 14:9, Zep 3:9).
(5) Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon (Is 11:1, Jer 23:5, Eze 34:23-24, 2 Sam 7:12-14, 1 Chr 17:11)
(6) Will not lead people to disobey Torah (Deu 13:1-4).
Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these? Not yet. Much less all six. This includes Jesus of Nazareth, Theudas (Acts 5:36), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Benjamin the Egyptian, Menachem, or Simeon Bar Kochba. What do all of these men have in common? They died by crucifixion and they claimed to be the King Messiah.
Mandy, was this the post you were alluding to?
“Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these?”#5 Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon.
This one made me laugh. Obviously many have fulfilled this and for Tow to have been right, many would still have to fulfill it, or else, where would the Messiah come from?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 22 2008,17:39) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 21 2008,19:19) 
Good to chat with you! Look forward to hearing more.
Goodnight, bro.
Mandy, I have a relative of my wife staying with us till Friday, I probably won't be able to took at that post till the weekend. I will make it a priority then.
No problem. I know “real life” takes priority over this cyber-life. I just appreciate your willingness to look at this at all. It also appears that David is taking the challenge to show the Messiah in the OT as well…….should be some good stuff coming from the both of you! I can't wait!
Quote (david @ Jan. 22 2008,01:12) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 21 2008,18:53) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 29 2007,12:53) What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill? (1) Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1).
(2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa 43:5-6, Isa 27:12-13 & 11:12).
(3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. (Isa 2:4, Isa 11:6, Micah 4:3)
(4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. (Isa 11:9, Isa 40:5, Jer 31:31-34, Zec 14:9, Zep 3:9).
(5) Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon (Is 11:1, Jer 23:5, Eze 34:23-24, 2 Sam 7:12-14, 1 Chr 17:11)
(6) Will not lead people to disobey Torah (Deu 13:1-4).
Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these? Not yet. Much less all six. This includes Jesus of Nazareth, Theudas (Acts 5:36), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Benjamin the Egyptian, Menachem, or Simeon Bar Kochba. What do all of these men have in common? They died by crucifixion and they claimed to be the King Messiah.
Mandy, was this the post you were alluding to?
“Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these?”#5 Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon.
This one made me laugh. Obviously many have fulfilled this and for Tow to have been right, many would still have to fulfill it, or else, where would the Messiah come from?
I think you already knew the setup for this one David. He wasn't ever trying to disprove all, he was trying to disprove Jesus. Why else would he need to include #5?Either way, including # 5 makes no sense at all. Any future messiah or past messiah would have to be a descendant of David.
Any future descendant of David, it seems would have no way of really even making this claim. It seems that the messiah was in the past, when such records still existed.
Tow eventually said, none of this really mattered. But for something that doesn't matter, it is repeated a whole lot in scripture.
Also, although yes, he was simply trying to disprove Jesus messiahship, he claimed to be showing “What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill?” And he askes: “Has anyone fulfilled a single one of these.”
He seemed to be trying to show what the messiah would fulfill, but really, he was trying to disprove Jesus, and rather sadly, I'd see (See #5 for an example.)Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 27 2008,09:34) No one here has made a very good case using the OT to support Jesus being the coming son of David that was spoken of. That to me does not mean he is not our savior, but it does mean he was perhaps not meant to be the Jewish coming king.
Perhaps. But it certainly doesn't mean that he will not be the Jewish coming King.
This too could have been concealed for good reason.1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.So if they didn't understand it, then was all this suppose to be common knowledge? Perhaps not?
Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.Sounds like Jesus to me. Gentle and having salvation. Not this King with an rod of iron.
John 12:15
“Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt.”John 19:19
Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read:|sc JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.John 19:21
The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, “Do not write 'The King of the Jews,' but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews.”Kejonn, the Jews are not the standard that we are to attain. The Pharisees protested at Jesus being the King of the Jews, but the Kingdom of God was not given to those who had certain intellectual knowledge, rather to the humble.
So now both you and Nick support smart people being excluded from the kingdom? I wonder how many more Christians want to say people who are intelligent will be lost.
Yes, plenty of smart people will be excluded from the Kingdom Kejonn, that is because salvation is not predicated upon intellect. No doubt some among the Pharisses would have had formidable intellects, and yet because they did not recognise exactly Who was in their midst they would “die in their sins” (John 8:24).
Looks like a lot of Towshab's questions came from this source. I'll also be borrowing extensively from the writings of others, as some of this in not a strong topic for me. However, I'll give the authors the courtesy of an acknowledgment.
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 29 2007,12:53) What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill?
(1)Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1).
Both of these passages have a future application. The context makes this plain. Ezekiel 37 mentions a “covenant of peace” that is “everlasting”. It also mentions YWHW having a “dwelling place” in His “sanctuary”. Obviously this has not happened to date. BTW; Verse 21 shows that this is YHWH speaking, how would Towshab explain this I wonder? Lastly it speak of the nations knowing that YHWH is the “Lord who sanctifies Israel”. Do/have the nations (all of them) of the present age or any previous age recognize(d) this about YHWH??Ezekiel 37:26-28
26″I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27″My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28″And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”'”In the Micah passage we read about people streaming to “the mountain of the house of the LORD”, and latterly about the end of human warring, with the images of swords being hammered into plowshares invoked. These also a patent reference to the era of peace, the millennial reign of YHWH.
Micah 4:1-3
1And it will come about in the last days That the mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains It will be raised above the hills, And the peoples will stream to it 2Many nations will come and say,”Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths “For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3And He will judge between many peoples And render decisions for mighty, distant nations Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they train for war.The third temple has an end times context….
“Since the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, religious Jews have prayed that God will allow for the building of a Third Temple. This prayer has been a formal part of the traditional thrice daily Jewish prayer services. Though it remains unbuilt, the notion of and desire for a Third Temple is sacred in Judaism, particularly Orthodox Judaism, as an unrealized place of worship. The prophets in the Tanakh called for its construction, to be fulfilled in the Messianic era.”
ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_TempleWhere Towshab has become confused is in his failing to take into account the notion that the Messiah comes more than once, and in two different fashions. The first time as the suffering servant sent to die for the sins of men, and again as Avenger, Judge and King. This is bolstered by the fact that the Messianic prophecies seem to discuss two different Messiahs. Even Jewish scholarship refers to Messiah ben-David and Messiah ben-Yosef–the victorious Messiah who ushers in a kingdom of peace, the other the suffering servant. (ref: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=362650)
He came the first time for many reason, notably to be a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28), to serve (Matt. 20:28) and to save the world (John 3:17; Luke 19:10). When he comes again, and He will (Matthew 24:3, 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 1 Timothy 6:14, 2 Timothy 1:10, 2 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:8, Titus 2:13-14, Revelation 1:7), it will be in an entirely different role:
2 Thessalonians 2:8
8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;Revelation 2:16
16'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.Revelation 17:14
14″These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”Revelation 19:15
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.John 5:25-27
25″Truly, truly, I say to you, (Z)an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26″For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.Matthew 25:31-34
31″But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32″All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34″Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.Revelation 17:14
14″These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”Quote (2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa 43:5-6, Isa 27:12-13 & 11:12).
Indeed this will happen. At His second coming – When Yeshua will reign as King, ruling from Mt Zion.Jeremiah 23:5-8
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS…they shall dwell in their own land.Matthew 25:31-34
31″But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32″All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34″Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.Luke 1:32
32″He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33and H
e will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”Quote (3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. (Isa 2:4, Isa 11:6, Micah 4:3)
Actually none of the references here speak specifically of “hatred”, “oppression”, “suffering” or “disease”. They speak harmony between animals and of the absence of “war”.It's can certainly be inferred that an era of world peace will ensue, and indeed this will happan – at His second coming of Yeshua. Clearly there will be no world peace until Satan is chained. This will not occur until the culmination of the great tribulation. According to the order of events given in Revelation 19-20:- there is a great battle, the enemies of Christ are defeated, the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, Satan is “bound”, those who are part of the second resurrection will reign with Christ for 1000 years
Revelation 19:11-20:6
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” 17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.” 19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. 4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be (T)priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Quote (4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. (Isa 11:9, Isa 40:5, Jer 31:31-34, Zec 14:9, Zep 3:9).
Again….Indeed this will happen – at His second coming. An examination of the passages quoted will reveal that the occur in an era of human history that is yet to occur. For instance Isaiah 11:8-12 speaks of vipers that cannot or will not hurt small children. As far as I’m aware vipers are still a deadly snake that will attack indiscriminately. Therefore, this must allude to a time that is ‘yet future’.Isaiah 11:8-12
8The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. 9They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea. 10Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious. 11Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. 12And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.Quote (5) Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon (Is 11:1, Jer 23:5, Eze 34:23-24, 2 Sam 7:12-14, 1 Chr 17:11)
According to the genealogical records presented in Matthew and Luke, both Mary and Joseph had David as a common ancestor. So by birth (through Mary) and by inheritance (through Joseph) Yeshua is a legitimate descendent of David. It’s also noteworthy that the Messiah, Yeshua, WILL sit on the throne of David. This is borne out in the NT & OT:2 Samuel 7:12-13
12″When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.13″He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.Isaiah 9:6-7
6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousnessLuke 1:32
32″He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”If He was not a descendant of David then He would have no legal right to this throne. But He does have this right, and He will take His rightful place on the throne.
With regard to the Solomon point- it is important to keep in mind these two lines of descendents from King David. Nathan was the older brother of Solomon, but the younger brother took the throne. Solomon was the king God chose to reign after David’s death. Normally, however, that would have fallen to the elder son, Nathan, who would have been king if God had not given it to Solomon. Of course, none of Nathan’s descendents ever claimed th
e throne. There were no reigning kings in his line of descendents, even though they had the legal right to the throne. When Joseph adopted Jesus as his legal son, Jesus became both David's direct descendent through David's son Nathan (Mary's side), and David's legal royal heir through Solomon (Joseph's side). (ref: http://www.abideinchrist.com/messages/onlylegitimatemessiah.html)Strictly, Solomon was not a direct forefather of Christ. His relationship with Christ was indirect, through the marriage of Joseph, his descendant, to Mary, of whom Christ was born (v. 16). The Old Testament did not say that Christ would be Solomon’s descendant, but it prophesied repeatedly that Christ would be a descendant of David (2 Sam. 7:13-14; Jer. 23:5). Although Christ was not a direct descendant of Solomon, the Old Testament prophecies concerning Christ as a descendant of David were nevertheless fulfilled. (ref: http://www.recoveryversion.org/matthew.html)
Quote (6) Will not lead people to disobey Torah (Deu 13:1-4).
Matthew 5:17-19
17″Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18″For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19″Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.Leading people to disobey the Torah?….
Hardly.
Quote Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these? Not yet. Much less all six. This includes Jesus of Nazareth, Theudas (Acts 5:36), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Benjamin the Egyptian, Menachem, or Simeon Bar Kochba. What do all of these men have in common? They died by crucifixion and they claimed to be the King Messiah.
What Towshab has done here is bring up a bunch of prophecies that have an end times application and said “hey, these are messianic prophecies and Jesus didn’t fulfill any of them!”, but to charge Yeshua with failing to fulfill prophecies which are manifestly eschatological in nature demonstrates an ignorance of scriptures. In practically every OT reference Towshab cited there were details given that have no link to any period of human history to date, there has never been a sustained period of peace on Earth where YHWH will reign as King from Mt Zion…..but there will be.Blessings
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 27 2008,12:07) So now both you and Nick support smart people being excluded from the kingdom? I wonder how many more Christians want to say people who are intelligent will be lost.
Is that comment for me Kejonn?Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,22:27) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 27 2008,12:07) So now both you and Nick support smart people being excluded from the kingdom? I wonder how many more Christians want to say people who are intelligent will be lost.
Is that comment for me Kejonn?
Yes, because I often see Nick, Kenrch (when he was here) and now you mention intellectuality in a negative light. I know what you are all trying to say, but it often makes it appear as if Christianity is just for the simple-minded when one reads some of these posts.Thanks, Isaiah!
I'm going to study everything you posted tonight (including the great link – thank you)!
My main concern was that the prophesies did not speak of a second return upon which the Christ would fulfill these things. I confess, that is confusing.
Thanks again, I really appreciate the time it took to put this together! I'm really going to study it.
Love,
MandyHi not3,
Must God specify two comings?
Jesus certainly made it plain there are two.
One as servant messiah and one as King in David's seat.See, I don't know Nick. That is what I'm trying to find out. That is what I am studying now and looking for in the OT scriptures.
You would think that if God was going to send a Redeemer for his children that it would be laid out clearly so they would know him? Or at least the instructions for his coming, going, and then coming again would be laid out in some sensible order?
I think God should clarify two comings because now he has two sets of children who are at odds (again) – the Jews who are looking for the Messiah to come the first time, and us who are looking for the Messiah to come the second time. These are some crazy affairs, don't you think?
Judge for yourself:
Did Jesus fulfill ALL these criteria?The Jewish tradition of “The Messiah” has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands “The Messiah” to be a human being – without any overtone of deity or divinity – who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as “The Messiah”.
——————————————————————————–
First of all, he must be Jewish – “…you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)
He must be a member of the tribe of Judah – “The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet…” (Genesis 49:10)
To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.
He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son – “And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever…” (2 Samuel 7:12 – 13)
The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!
He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -“And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)
Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?
He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem – “…and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them..” (Ezekiel 37:26 – 27)
At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!
He will rule at a time of world-wide peace – “…they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” (Micah 4:3)
Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?
He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments – “My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes.” (Ezekiel 37:24)
The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.
He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d – “And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd” (Isaiah 66:23)
there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be “The Messiah.” A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.
Certainly NOT Jesus.
This was taken from the link that Isaiah gave me. There are some very intersting things there to check out. I guess I've narrowed my concern down to the second coming theory. Where is this spoke of in the OT – I can't find it anywhere. Back to Isaiah's post…..
Hi Isaiah,
I'm pretty tired tonight, I've been listening to a lot of audio from the site you recommended OR thought that Tow got his material from. I've also been looking at the scriptures you shared and your comments. I have a few questions for you.
Quote …..that the Messiah comes more than once, and in two different fashions. The first time as the suffering servant sent to die for the sins of men, and again as Avenger, Judge and King.
I know this is a popular teaching, but where are the verses in the OT that teach this?Quote Indeed this will happen. At His second coming – When Yeshua will reign as King, ruling from Mt Zion. Jeremiah 23:5-8
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS…they shall dwell in their own land.
Using the OT it is hard to say if this is referring to a second coming of THE Messiah. It could be speaking of the first appearance of the annointed King, could it not? It sounds like we are reading Jesus into this passage.Quote When Joseph adopted Jesus as his legal son, Jesus became both David's direct descendent through David's son Nathan (Mary's side), and David's legal royal heir through Solomon (Joseph's side).
But in the Torah it is said that the mother determines if the child is Jewish or not, but the Father determines it's clan or standing. According to the above, Jesus would have to draw his pedigree from Joseph. If this is so it doesn't appear to help Jesus much because Joseph's lineage is traced back to that King that had a curse put on him! What do you think of that?Quote What Towshab has done here is bring up a bunch of prophecies that have an end times application and said “hey, these are messianic prophecies and Jesus didn’t fulfill any of them!”, but to charge Yeshua with failing to fulfill prophecies which are manifestly eschatological in nature demonstrates an ignorance of scriptures.
So you agree that Jesus didn't fulfill these messianic prophesies the first time around?Quote but to charge Yeshua with failing to fulfill prophecies which are manifestly eschatological in nature demonstrates an ignorance of scriptures.
But this is exactly the problem……nowhere in the OT is the annointed future King to come to the earth once and not fulfill anything,and then come again and fulfill everything.Quote In practically every OT reference Towshab cited there were details given that have no link to any period of human history to date, there has never been a sustained period of peace on Earth where YHWH will reign as King from Mt Zion…..but there will be.
Exactly! When Jesus came none of this happened.
When the Messiah comes it's supposed to happen.
Nowhere does it say in the OT that the Messiah will do it the second time around.You may see my confusion now?
Thanks,
MandyQuote (kejonn @ Jan. 27 2008,12:07) So now both you and Nick support smart people being excluded from the kingdom? I wonder how many more Christians want to say people who are intelligent will be lost.
That is an extreme view Kejonn for what I have said in these forums.Before I came to believing in God and the gospel, I held intellect as a great thing. But intellect never lead me to seeing God, for no matter how smart a person is, if they are in darkness, then they just can't see it because they are blind, not intellectually challenged.
Evidence of this is demonstrated aptly in history where plenty of smart people have believed in some ridiculous things and done some very stupid things too.
Even today, there are plenty of intellects that are willing to accept that there is no God, rather nothing, or an eternal inanimate something.That said, I still hold the intellect as special for it is a gift of God. God says “let us reason together”.
But it is not the foundation of truth Kejonn.
. Do not rely on your own understanding.
. The truth that the Spirit of God leads us to is not packaged in the spirit of man.It doesn't say that using our intellects is wrong, it says to not rely on it.
So that said, we should of course think and use our intellects, but we should also be led by the Spirit and to not just rely on what our brain can decipher.
I like to think that truth is inside us if we are born from above, but then it is up to us to reason that truth so we can understand it and teach it.
So to say that I am saying that smart people are excluded from the Kingdom of God is truly a misrepresentation of what I am saying. I have never said such a thing or hinted at it.
I have often found your comments to be quite extreme and I think this has more to do with your own thinking process than the thinking processes of others.
Nobody as far as I know is saying that we must throw away our brain, and scripture tells us to not lean on our own understanding. So obviously the truth is that we can use our brains and intellect, but be open to accepting the revelation of God which is greater.
I for one have always encouraged people to think because when they do, they can easily do away with many myths that they may be holding to.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 29 2008,14:19) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 27 2008,12:07) So now both you and Nick support smart people being excluded from the kingdom? I wonder how many more Christians want to say people who are intelligent will be lost.
That is an extreme view Kejonn for what I have said in these forums.Before I came to believing in God and the gospel, I held intellect as a great thing. But intellect never lead me to seeing God, for no matter how smart a person is, if they are in darkness, then they just can't see it because they are blind, not intellectually challenged.
Evidence of this is demonstrated aptly in history where plenty of smart people have believed in some ridiculous things and done some very stupid things too.
Even today, there are plenty of intellects that are willing to accept that there is no God, rather nothing, or an eternal inanimate something.That said, I still hold the intellect as special for it is a gift of God. God says “let us reason together”.
But it is not the foundation of truth Kejonn.
. Do not rely on your own understanding.
. The truth that the Spirit of God leads us to is not packaged in the spirit of man.It doesn't say that using our intellects is wrong, it says to not rely on it.
So that said, we should of course think and use our intellects, but we should also be led by the Spirit and to not just rely on what our brain can decipher.
I like to think that truth is inside us if we are born from above, but then it is up to us to reason that truth so we can understand it and teach it.
So to say that I am saying that smart people are excluded from the Kingdom of God is truly a misrepresentation of what I am saying. I have never said such a thing or hinted at it.
I have often found your comments to be quite extreme and I think this has more to do with your own thinking process than the thinking processes of others.
Nobody as far as I know is saying that we must throw away our brain, and scripture tells us to not lean on our own understanding. So obviously the truth is that we can use our brains and intellect, but be open to accepting the revelation of God which is greater.
I for one have always encouraged people to think because when they do, they can easily do away with many myths that they may be holding to.
t8 I certainly agree with you, without God's Holy Spirit we would not understand at all. Knowing Jesus Christ is a privilege. Can we see Him in the O.T. scriptures, I think so. Have all been fulfilled, No. That He will come again is a Prophecy that is in the N.T. For whatever reason it was left out of the O.T. should not make a difference to us. I know my Savior and I know He will come again to rule and Judge in the millenium. Scripture tells me so. Do I use my intellect ( as little as I have left) to study the Scriptures, yes of course. I never seen you say anything different. Being humble is not that one is without smarts. Just the way I see it. The way the Holy Spirit has taught me. I was never instructed by an Organisation after we left the W.W.C. of God over 12 years ago. Whatever I know today was revealed by the Holy Spirit to us, that is my Husband and I. We studied together the last 12 years. That has shown me that without God's Holy Spirit one can't understand. Also all will grow into the truth at different times in their lives. God gives His Holy Spirit in small doses. Not at all what Jesus possessed full strength.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 28 2008,06:46) Thanks, Isaiah! I'm going to study everything you posted tonight (including the great link – thank you)!
My main concern was that the prophesies did not speak of a second return upon which the Christ would fulfill these things. I confess, that is confusing.
Thanks again, I really appreciate the time it took to put this together! I'm really going to study it.
Love,
Mandy
I didn't think the link was great, I posted it to show that Towshab was just parroting off, I don't think anything much of he wrote was 'original thought'. I thought the site I linked was simply Judaic antichristian propaganda. Here are some other sites you should check out….http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html
http://www.amfi.org/messiahs.htm
There are some very, very sound reasons to believe that Yeshua is the Messiah. Maybe that's why billions have done so. It's not something that should be unquestioned, it's just that it's unquestionably true.
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