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I'm still looking Tow, but I have all confidence. In any case, one point that Tow brought up is that Jesus was never anointed properly, according to Levitical law. But what of King Cyrus (Isa 45:1)? Cyrus was not a king of Judah or Israel, yet God called him “His anointed”. Cyrus was anointed of God to do many things for God's people.
Some people may not know this, but King Cyrus worshiped a God called Ahura Mazda, the God of Zoroastrianism. Very odd that Yahweh would call Cyrus his anointed knowing this. Unless…
Personally, I think much of who Jesus is tied in with God promising the Jewish people that they will be a light to the nations (Gentiles). By themselves, have they? Would mankind even have access to the Tanach if Jesus had never been born? The Jewish people weren't being very strong lights so Jesus brought billions to the knowledge of Yahweh.
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 18 2008,22:10) I use “King Messiah” as opposed to just “Messiah” because “Messiah” just means “anointed”. “King Messiah” would indicate the one who will come in the messianic age. And kejonn is correct, that one never is called “messiah” in Tanakh. But I wish kejonn all the luck in the world finding Jesus in Tanakh outside of Deu 13.
What we have here is the “blind” leading the “blind”, and therefore, they will both fall in the ditch.Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 18 2008,11:40) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 17 2008,12:51) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 29 2007,12:53) What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill? (1) Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1).
(2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa 43:5-6, Isa 27:12-13 & 11:12).
(3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. (Isa 2:4, Isa 11:6, Micah 4:3)
(4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. (Isa 11:9, Isa 40:5, Jer 31:31-34, Zec 14:9, Zep 3:9).
(5) Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon (Is 11:1, Jer 23:5, Eze 34:23-24, 2 Sam 7:12-14, 1 Chr 17:11)
(6) Will not lead people to disobey Torah (Deu 13:1-4).
Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these? Not yet. Much less all six. This includes Jesus of Nazareth, Theudas (Acts 5:36), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Benjamin the Egyptian, Menachem, or Simeon Bar Kochba. What do all of these men have in common? They died by crucifixion and they claimed to be the King Messiah.
You say:What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill?
(1) Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1).
The temple that is being built is the body of Christ. We the members of His body are the Holy Temple of God.
The instructions regarding the temple in Ezekiel were given the Jews who were in Babylonian captivity, and the building of that temple was to be condional upon their repentance. Apparently, that temple was not built because they did not meet the conditons.
Ezekiel 40:1
In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth * * year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither.
40:2
In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.Ezekiel 43:6
And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
43:7
And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
43:8
In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
43:9
Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
43:10
Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
43:11
And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.Again, the instructions for this temple were for those who were in Babylonian captivity.
There is no need for the reinstitution of animal sacrifice now that God has given His Only Begotten Son as a perfect sacrifice, and He would not be giving anyone any instructions to reinstitute animal sacrifices.
I know that the Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah will rebuild this temple and reinstitute animal sacrifices but these are not instructions from God to do so. This is a misunderstanding.
THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANY FURTHER SACRIFICE. GOD HAS PROVIDED HIMSELF THE SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!!
–Snicker– Keep on a wishin' and looking to the sky.
Mock on Tow, hopefully, you will acknowledge the truth and be saved so that the following scriptures won't describe you:Quote 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with F46 a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Quote . 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, F6 when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 18 2008,23:55) Some people may not know this, but King Cyrus worshiped a God called Ahura Mazda, the God of Zoroastrianism.
Hey Kejonn,Where is this written? Also am I wrong to say that “Cyrus” can also mean offspring? I thought I read that somewhere? Maybe in a NIV Study note somewhere….
Hi,
The man of division said
“Who inspired Paul? Who spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus? Who pretty much abolished Torah?
Christianity teaches that Torah has passed away. Christianity is the faith of Christ. “What Paul said in Gal 3 was
Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.Galatians 3:25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmasterNot quite the same.
Galatians, like Romans, was written to Jewish converts.
Those who have not the light of the Son of God brightening within them need the schoolmaster.And Paul encouraged devotion to the OT
2 Tim 3
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
As Peter who supported Paul said
” 19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”
Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 19 2008,01:16) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 18 2008,23:55) Some people may not know this, but King Cyrus worshiped a God called Ahura Mazda, the God of Zoroastrianism.
Hey Kejonn,Where is this written? Also am I wrong to say that “Cyrus” can also mean offspring? I thought I read that somewhere? Maybe in a NIV Study note somewhere….
History. While Cyrus might not have been truly Zoroastrian (some say he was, some say not) he certainly acknowledged Ahura Mazda, the God of Zoroastrianism. I guess that would be similar to a non-Christian acknowledging a belief in God. Here is actual proof, from http://www.iranchamber.com/history/cyrus/cyrus_charter.php- The document has been hailed as the first charter of human rights, and in 1971 the United Nations was published translation of it in all the official U.N. languages. “May Ahura Mazda protect this land, this nation, from rancor, from foes, from falsehood, and from drought“.
Now that I put the crown of kingdom of Iran, Babylon, and the nations of the four directions on the head with the help of (Ahura) Mazda, I announce that I will respect the traditions, customs and religions of the nations of my empire and never let any of my governors and subordinates look down on or insult them until I am alive. From now on, till (Ahura) Mazda grants me the kingdom favor, I will impose my monarchy on no nation. Each is free to accept it , and if any one of them rejects it , I never resolve on war to reign. Until I am the king of Iran, Babylon, and the nations of the four directions, I never let anyone oppress any others, and if it occurs , I will take his or her right back and penalize the oppressor.
I implore to (Ahura) Mazda to make me succeed in fulfilling my obligations to the nations of Iran (Persia), Babylon, and the ones of the four directions.
This was all taken from the Cyrus Cylinder discovered in 1878.
Cyrus was rare in that he did not force any religion on any of those under him. He was one of the first to espouse freedom of religion. Many scholars believe Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism during their time of exile. Darius also acknowledged Ahura Mazda. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darius_I_of_Persia
- Darius in his inscriptions appears as a fervent worshiper of Ahura Mazda. A great statesman and organizer, Darius thoroughly revised the Persian system of administration and also the legal code. His revisions of the legal code revolved around laws of evidence, slave sales, deposits, bribery, and assault.
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 18 2008,09:00) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 18 2008,22:10) I use “King Messiah” as opposed to just “Messiah” because “Messiah” just means “anointed”. “King Messiah” would indicate the one who will come in the messianic age. And kejonn is correct, that one never is called “messiah” in Tanakh. But I wish kejonn all the luck in the world finding Jesus in Tanakh outside of Deu 13.
What we have here is the “blind” leading the “blind”, and therefore, they will both fall in the ditch.
I know you are including Tow in here, but who else? Because this statement sounds haughty to me.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 19 2008,00:06) Personally, I think much of who Jesus is tied in with God promising the Jewish people that they will be a light to the nations (Gentiles). By themselves, have they? Would mankind even have access to the Tanach if Jesus had never been born? The Jewish people weren't being very strong lights so Jesus brought billions to the knowledge of Yahweh.
That's nice I'm sure Jesus appreciates that.
Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 19 2008,11:22) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 19 2008,00:06) Personally, I think much of who Jesus is tied in with God promising the Jewish people that they will be a light to the nations (Gentiles). By themselves, have they? Would mankind even have access to the Tanach if Jesus had never been born? The Jewish people weren't being very strong lights so Jesus brought billions to the knowledge of Yahweh.
That's nice I'm sure Jesus appreciates that.
Perhaps he does, rather than trying to force him into passages he does not fit.Hi KJ,
Kings, prophets and the sons of God, including the Christ, are anointed.Indeed the horn of the anointed will be lifted at the time of Judgement.
All the work of God is done through angels and anointed men.
You say God used the Christ to bring in the gentiles?
Then you say he was and is anointed of God.
1Sam 2
6The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.7The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.
8He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.
9He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
10The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.
Hi KJ,
Again of Christ is said
Psalm 45:7
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.He is the Son of David anointed to sit on the throne of his father and to judge the world.
Nick,
Tow often pointed out many passages that show that Jesus' lineage and virgin birth disqualified him to sit on the throne of David. Did you ever address those? I might have missed it, could you show where?
Hi KJ,
Scripture says in the anointed NT which interprets the anointed OT
that Jesus is the Son of David and the son of Mary, who was a virgin.Do you need further proof or have you lost faith in the Spirit who wrote the NT?
You say
“Personally, I think much of who Jesus is tied in with God promising the Jewish people that they will be a light to the nations (Gentiles). By themselves, have they? Would mankind even have access to the Tanach if Jesus had never been born? The Jewish people weren't being very strong lights so Jesus brought billions to the knowledge of Yahweh.'You must make up your mind.
Either Jesus is an anointed man who he said he is
Or he is an outright liar and an enemy of the God of Israel.I have made my choice and at some time so did you but now you give him some credit but say he lied?
Hi KJ,
The success of Tow was in pretending to be a faithful Jew and demanding that all the predictions about the Christ be fulfilled in his first foray to earth and all OT scripture be understood now. He assumed the role of judge of what related to messiah and then batted away anything that might threaten his base. He denied the interpretative Role of Christ and the truth of the NT as this also would cause his case to collapse.Peter did not understand much as Tow showed, but he did know Jesus was the Christ, he committed to that faith and would not leave him. Neither did the disciples on the way to Emmaeus have a bible with them when Christ expounded on his revealed presence in the OT. They did listen to him and accept his words as truth and their hearts burned within them from faith.
Anyone reliant on full knowledge before commitment to Jesus Christ will never walk with him. You have to have your heart burning within when you hear his words and that is all you need to obey.
John 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 20 2008,05:49) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 19 2008,11:22) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 19 2008,00:06) Personally, I think much of who Jesus is tied in with God promising the Jewish people that they will be a light to the nations (Gentiles). By themselves, have they? Would mankind even have access to the Tanach if Jesus had never been born? The Jewish people weren't being very strong lights so Jesus brought billions to the knowledge of Yahweh.
That's nice I'm sure Jesus appreciates that.
Perhaps he does, rather than trying to force him into passages he does not fit.
You mean it wasn't meant to be nice?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 19 2008,14:03) Hi KJ,
Scripture says in the anointed NT which interprets the anointed OT
that Jesus is the Son of David and the son of Mary, who was a virgin.Do you need further proof or have you lost faith in the Spirit who wrote the NT?
You say
“Personally, I think much of who Jesus is tied in with God promising the Jewish people that they will be a light to the nations (Gentiles). By themselves, have they? Would mankind even have access to the Tanach if Jesus had never been born? The Jewish people weren't being very strong lights so Jesus brought billions to the knowledge of Yahweh.'You must make up your mind.
Either Jesus is an anointed man who he said he is
Or he is an outright liar and an enemy of the God of Israel.I have made my choice and at some time so did you but now you give him some credit but say he lied?
But where does the NT say he was the promised son of David who would bring about the world to come? I know about the second coming, but much of that does not match the world to come as you see in the OT.Jesus was called Christ. All Christ means is anointed. Priests, kings, and prophets (I think) are referred to as anointed.
That is why I'm thinking that Jesus was not meant to be what the Jews were looking for. He said scripture spoke of him, and he said this while on earth. So where Nick? Because I want to find him, not just pretend and have “blind faith”. Blind faith was fine was I was a new Christian but after awhile blind faith means I am not growing.
I've already stated that Jesus was the one to change my life. I have no plan on discarding him in my life but I'm not entirely certain he is what most Christians have been told he is.
Hi KJ,
Do you not know the anointed servant from Isaiah?
The many words of Jesus about his return?
The Word of God of Rev 19?
Many are called prophets but only one is the Word of God.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 20 2008,10:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 19 2008,14:03) Hi KJ,
Scripture says in the anointed NT which interprets the anointed OT
that Jesus is the Son of David and the son of Mary, who was a virgin.Do you need further proof or have you lost faith in the Spirit who wrote the NT?
You say
“Personally, I think much of who Jesus is tied in with God promising the Jewish people that they will be a light to the nations (Gentiles). By themselves, have they? Would mankind even have access to the Tanach if Jesus had never been born? The Jewish people weren't being very strong lights so Jesus brought billions to the knowledge of Yahweh.'You must make up your mind.
Either Jesus is an anointed man who he said he is
Or he is an outright liar and an enemy of the God of Israel.I have made my choice and at some time so did you but now you give him some credit but say he lied?
But where does the NT say he was the promised son of David who would bring about the world to come? I know about the second coming, but much of that does not match the world to come as you see in the OT.Jesus was called Christ. All Christ means is anointed. Priests, kings, and prophets (I think) are referred to as anointed.
That is why I'm thinking that Jesus was not meant to be what the Jews were looking for. He said scripture spoke of him, and he said this while on earth. So where Nick? Because I want to find him, not just pretend and have “blind faith”. Blind faith was fine was I was a new Christian but after awhile blind faith means I am not growing.
I've already stated that Jesus was the one to change my life. I have no plan on discarding him in my life but I'm not entirely certain he is what most Christians have been told he is.
Hi KJ,
Matthew 1:1
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Luke 1:32
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
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