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“[Jehovah] is telling his word to Jacob, his regulations and his judicial decisions to Israel. He has not done that way to any other nation; and as for his judicial decisions, they have not known them.” (Psalm 147:19, 20)
Quote (david @ Dec. 29 2007,16:02) “[Jehovah] is telling his word to Jacob, his regulations and his judicial decisions to Israel. He has not done that way to any other nation; and as for his judicial decisions, they have not known them.” (Psalm 147:19, 20)
Well there ya go, Gentiles (most Christians) are left out. So much for 'replacement theology'.Quote Gentiles (most Christians) are left out. –tow
Yes, they are left out of that particular covenant, which was between God and “Israel.” True.DEUTERONOMY 5:1-3
“And Moses proceeded to call all ISRAEL and to SAY TO THEM [THAT IS, “ISRAEL”]:
“Hear, O ISRAEL, the regulations and the judicial decisions that I am speaking in YOUR ears today, and YOU must learn them and be careful to do them. Jehovah our God concluded a covenant with us in Ho′reb. It was not with our forefathers that Jehovah concluded this covenant, but with us, all those of us alive here today.”So as you say, Yes, “there you go. Gentiles are left out” of this “covenant.”
Quote Then maybe YOU should toss out Ezekiel 40+ since it describes many different aspects of the sanctuary that will be built. In Bible prophecy the measuring of something usually indicates that Jehovah’s purpose for that thing is certain to be thoroughly worked out. (2 Kings 21:13; Jeremiah 31:39; Lamentations 2:8; zech 2:2-8)
The temple that Ezekiel saw could not really be built as described. True, the Jews took that vision seriously and even applied some details literally. However, the visionary temple as a whole was too large even to fit on Mount Moriah, the site of the former temple. In addition, Ezekiel’s temple was not in the city but some distance away on a separate tract of land, whereas the second temple was built where its predecessor had stood, in the city of Jerusalem. (Ezra 1:1, 2) Further, no literal river ever emerged from Jerusalem’s temple. So ancient Israel saw only a token fulfillment of Ezekiel’s prophecy. This implies that there must be a greater, spiritual fulfillment of this vision.
Quote (david @ Dec. 29 2007,15:55) Quote It is more of a promise that a prophecy. One can view it as both. It basically means that all REAL and anointed kings to sit on the throne of David will be of the lineage of David through Solomon. Do you think that once all of the others are fulfilled some will ask “show me your lineage”? There will be no doubt at this point. So, he would be born in the line of David, but this being born business, is one of the last prophecies for people to consider?
I would think it's the first.Perhaps, but if he is the real King Messiah then whether they want to prove it or not, G-d will keep moving him forward. There will be no stopping him. No death on a cross, no other death.
Quote Being born in a tribe, where you're born, when you're born, these are the first.
You have things exactly backwards. Being born comes first.You act as if the King Messiah will have to prove himself. G-d will do the proving because he will be G-d's Messiah. I think you underestimate YHVH.
Quote Quote It will be proven when all of the others take place. Through them, all will know that the King Messiah is of the lineage of David.
This thinking is beyond me. The Jews kept records of lineage. The prophecy said that he would come through David's lineage. But it will be “proven” that he is of that lineage, not because of the records, but because it is obvious by the other prophecies?What more will you need? Does G-d need records? No.
Quote Quote This is weak reasoning. Should one have to break out his family tree to prove he is King Messiah if all the other prophecies are fulfilled? G-d promised it, there is no were written that it will have to be proven is there?
If it is so obvious, why all the prophecies? Why not just one? Why not two?Because if he fails in a single prophecy, then he is not King Messiah. Again, failing to prove his lineage by having an adequate genealogical record will not be enough to be a failed prophecy because G-d knows who the Messiah will be.
Quote Quote Why will they have to prove it? Rather, by fulfilling the other prophecies, King Messiah will obviously prove his lineage. I have a question: What is the point of the prophecies? Were they in part to indicate who the Messiah was, so that he would be recognized? What would you say the point of these prophecies were? I believe they were in part to establish who the Messiah was.
No the point is that it is prophecy. They are not proving tools but signs to recognize. You seem to think that they are some means to prove. They are not; they merely show us what the messianic age will be like.
Quote Quote Again, this is a promise, not something that must be proven for doubters. I think my idea of “proof” is much greater than yours. I'm not just going to accept someone if they don't have the credentials. The credentials being that they'd be born in the right place (bethlehem ephratheh) and appear as the Messiah at the right time (date of Jesus baptism and annointing) and be actually in the line of David as was repeated in the Bible COUNTLESS TIMES, AND for a reason.
How so? Oh, and your Christian bias is showing: they King Messiah will not have to be born in Bethlehem. David was from the tribe of Bethlehem Ephratheh, again showing that the line is through David.
Your proof is that you accept the GT over Torah and Tanakh. Big mistake unless you think G-d lied in the Hebrew scriptures.
Quote I mean, over and over and over again, more than any other idea, the fact that the messiah would come through that line, is mentioned. Yet, you say that we are just to believe and not be a doubter and that this prophecy repeated over and over doesn't mean too much. Uh, it really won't matter if you doubt. Do you think that when the true King Messiah comes G-d will care about your doubt? He doesn't need you or any other person to believe in the Messiah.
Quote Quote What we clearly have is fiction (GT) vs. non-fiction (Tanakh).
No, I'm referrring to prophecies from the Hebrew, such as Is 53, which you know, or Zech 9:9.Isaiah 53 is not messianic. And if someone riding on a donkey is a sure sign, that will be so hard to fulfill!
Quote Quote No, but they are the strongest indicators of the messianic age and the most obvious ones NOT fulfilled by Jesus. BINGO!!
So, what you claimed was a list of messiah credentials was really a list of reasons why you don't think Jesus is the Messiah. I thought so. Some of them weren't even proof of messiaship “per se,” as you said.
One is not some. But yet regardless of this, you still have th
e very apparent lack of Jesus fulfilling messianic prophecies.Quote Quote Who knows? But they will hear of G-d through G-d's people, the Jews.
hhmm… So, the Jews (fleshly Jews) are going to go to people in their huts and villages and tell people about God. I don't see that happening. Do you really believe it will?
Your “who knows” response makes me weary.No, they will not have to go anywhere. People will come to them.
Zec 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'”
Quote Quote Sorry, since the prophecy has clearly broken itself down in time frames, to disclude the 35-40 years would be erroneous. Christians MUST deal with this large gap. Oh, check this out. “Who knows.” We must not be “doubters.” All the other things Jesus fulfilled. Why even question that one.
Of course, I don't think that way. I'm just trying to show you how your response feels to me.
What other things did he fulfill? You said all the other things when that has no basis in reality.Quote (david @ Dec. 29 2007,18:26) Quote Then maybe YOU should toss out Ezekiel 40+ since it describes many different aspects of the sanctuary that will be built. In Bible prophecy the measuring of something usually indicates that Jehovah’s purpose for that thing is certain to be thoroughly worked out. (2 Kings 21:13; Jeremiah 31:39; Lamentations 2:8; zech 2:2-8)
The temple that Ezekiel saw could not really be built as described. True, the Jews took that vision seriously and even applied some details literally. However, the visionary temple as a whole was too large even to fit on Mount Moriah, the site of the former temple. In addition, Ezekiel’s temple was not in the city but some distance away on a separate tract of land, whereas the second temple was built where its predecessor had stood, in the city of Jerusalem. (Ezra 1:1, 2) Further, no literal river ever emerged from Jerusalem’s temple. So ancient Israel saw only a token fulfillment of Ezekiel’s prophecy. This implies that there must be a greater, spiritual fulfillment of this vision.
Implies? Tell the Jews. Oh yeah, they're spiritually blind according to Christians.Quote (david @ Dec. 29 2007,18:06) Quote Gentiles (most Christians) are left out. –tow
Yes, they are left out of that particular covenant, which was between God and “Israel.” True.DEUTERONOMY 5:1-3
“And Moses proceeded to call all ISRAEL and to SAY TO THEM [THAT IS, “ISRAEL”]:
“Hear, O ISRAEL, the regulations and the judicial decisions that I am speaking in YOUR ears today, and YOU must learn them and be careful to do them. Jehovah our God concluded a covenant with us in Ho′reb. It was not with our forefathers that Jehovah concluded this covenant, but with us, all those of us alive here today.”So as you say, Yes, “there you go. Gentiles are left out” of this “covenant.”
As well as the new covenant that Christians claim has come:Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
So, please show me in Tanakh where G-d will make a new covenant with Gentiles.
Hi Tow,
The OT revealed the relationship of God with His chosen people.You are not among them and your abuse of their sacred words is evidence too.
They, as His sons through Abraham, were offered the chance to inherit the kingdom.
Now that Christ has come the wider view has been revealed by a God Who is fair-all are welcome through Christ.
You would deny God the right to reveal His full plan in His own time.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 29 2007,22:56) Hi Tow,
The OT revealed the relationship of God with His chosen people.You are not among them and your abuse of their sacred words is evidence too.
Are you a child of Noah? I am. If YHVH was Noah's G-d, then He can be my G-d if I choose to worship Him.
Quote They, as His sons through Abraham, were offered the chance to inherit the kingdom. Now that Christ has come the wider view has been revealed by a God Who is fair-all are welcome through Christ.
Nope, sorry. YHVH is not found in the GT.
Quote You would deny God the right to reveal His full plan in His own time.
His plan is revealed in Tanakh, not GT. If GT had not contradicted Tanakh this would not be an issue but alas, it does.Hi Tow,
You close you eyes and ears to the continued revelation of God through His Son.
If you knew God you would recognise Him in His son.
You demand that God fully reveals His will through the OT and yet you not believe the OT.
You cherry pick what shows you a God you can love.
You lacerate the Word as if you owned it and not our God.
But it is in receiving all the OT you might see the presaging of the work of His Son.
As a gentile you need the message of His Son as you have no part in the inheritance of the OT no matter how you arrogantly think you can command it of God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 29 2007,23:57) Hi Tow,
You close you eyes and ears to the continued revelation of God through His Son.Really? You are the one who continually holds up the infallibility of OT&NT which were written thousands of years ago. So how are you open to 'continued revelation'?
Quote If you knew God you would recognise Him in His son.
You demand that God fully reveals His will through the OT and yet you not believe the OT.Ah, I wish I kept tally of the many times you misrepresent me. Is it 10 times? 20? There are indeed portions I will not support but that does not mean that G-d does not lead me to sift the bad from the good.
Quote You cherry pick what shows you a God you can love. Seriously? Then why is the GT so different from the Tanakh?
Quote You lacerate the Word as if you owned it and not our God. G-d owns all, but He never said His words were strictly contained in written words by man.
Quote But it is in receiving all the OT you might see the presaging of the work of His Son. Nope, I don't see him in any of it outside of Deu 13.
Quote As a gentile you need the message of His Son as you have no part in the inheritance of the OT no matter how you arrogantly think you can command it of God.
Hogwash. I am a child of Noah, who had a relationship with YHVH.Hi Tow,
So you are reliant on your kinship with Noah for you hopes of salvation?
The fact that Noah was a man of God makes you relevant?
If so then all men are saved?No wonder you abuse and disregard the messengers of God.
Your complacency is extraordinary.Hi Tow,
If you only accept PORTIONS of the OT then your foundation is not the OT.
So please do not quote it lest you later decide what you quote is in fact an unacceptable PORTION.
It is rather useless to propose that you are in any way to be taken seriously in any matter relating to the bible.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 30 2007,02:35) Hi Tow,
So you are reliant on your kinship with Noah for you hopes of salvation?What salvation? Salvation in Tanakh meant deliverance from bondage to other humans. Spiritual salvation is a Christian ideal borrowed from other pagan religions. There is no hell in Tanakh, no lake of fire. These were again, based on stories of Hades (hence the Greek word). From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades#Hades.2C_Abode_of_the_Dead
============================
In older Greek myths, Hades is the misty and gloomy abode of the dead, where all mortals go. There is no reward or special punishment in this Hades, akin to the Hebrew sheol. In later Greek philosophy appeared the idea that all mortals are judged after death and are either rewarded or cursed.There were several sections of Hades, including the Elysian Fields (contrast the Christian Paradise or Heaven), and Tartarus, (compare the Christian Hell).
============================Quote The fact that Noah was a man of God makes you relevant?
If so then all men are saved?Saved from what? Again, no such concept in Tanakh.
Quote No wonder you abuse and disregard the messengers of God.
Your complacency is extraordinary.
Why should I live in fear? Is that a true relationship to have with G-d? After all, you chose to believe in Jesus for YOUR salvation: in other words, Christianity in its base beliefs is a religion of selfishness. Its all about what YOU get out of it.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 30 2007,02:37) Hi Tow,
So is it written that the revelation of God ceased after Malachi?
No. Is it written that G-d no longer speaks after GT? If not, why not believe in Book of Mormon or Koran?I choose to not believe in the GT because it conflicts greatly with Tanakh.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 30 2007,02:44) Hi Tow,
If you only accept PORTIONS of the OT then your foundation is not the OT.(1) OT is not Tanakh (2) My 'foundation' is not found in words written on paper, but a living G-d.
Quote So please do not quote it lest you later decide what you quote is in fact an unacceptable PORTION. I do as I please. Sorry if you would like to limit me but you are just another man.
Quote It is rather useless to propose that you are in any way to be taken seriously in any matter relating to the bible.
Then why do you continue to post your 1-3 liners in response to me since you have repeated this same sentiment at least 5 times already?Hi Tow,
Your god is not our God.
Perhaps you are serving the god of this world?
He hates our God and goes about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.Quote No, they [Israelites] will not have to go anywhere. People will come to them. -tow
I'm wondering what you think is going to be happening to people in the final part of the days. I'm wondering how you think this will end. Not everyone today has the internet. Billions don't even have “clean” drinking water and a billion are lacking food. These ones don't know of Israel. What reason do they have to go to Israel?
The God of the Hebrew scriptures is described as a God of “justice.” I'm wondering what you think will happen.Of course, in the Christian scriptures, Jesus told his followers to “Go” and make disciples of people of all the nations. (mat 28:19,20) and he fortold that this preaching work to all the nations of the good news of God's kingdom would take place before the end. (Mat 24:14)
To me, that seems fair. People in huts and villages in hundreds of lands are being told the good news, people in hundreds of languages and tongues. They are being given a choice on whose side they want to be.
But I'm wondering how it is supposed to work in your mind. Is God going to come and destroy the wicked? Did the wicked actually recieve any warning from God's supposed people, fleshly Israel? How is the God of Justice going to carry this out, exactly?
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 31 2007,05:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 30 2007,02:44) Hi Tow,
If you only accept PORTIONS of the OT then your foundation is not the OT.(1) OT is not Tanakh (2) My 'foundation' is not found in words written on paper, but a living G-d.
Quote So please do not quote it lest you later decide what you quote is in fact an unacceptable PORTION. I do as I please. Sorry if you would like to limit me but you are just another man.
Quote It is rather useless to propose that you are in any way to be taken seriously in any matter relating to the bible.
Then why do you continue to post your 1-3 liners in response to me since you have repeated this same sentiment at least 5 times already?
Hi Tow,
So as a supposed servant of God you have ascribed to yourself the right to accept only portions of the OT.You thus call Moses and Elisha and John the baptist liars and deceivers yet seem to feel your own righteousness is established.
You deny God has any power to overule nature and reverse disease and even death.
You believe you are a worshiper of the true God but can point only to kinship with Noah to suggest that link.
You are utterly deceived so should not try to lead others.
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