The Real King Messiah

[Towshab]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 16 2008,20:11)

Hi Tow, “The word the Christian translators use for “virgin” in this verse is “almah”, which means “young woman”. Were you aware that Isaiah used the word “virgin” 4 times in Isaiah (23:12, 37:22, 47:1, 62:5)? Each time it was the proper Hebrew word “bethulah”. Now, if Isaiah knows the right word for virgin and uses it 4 times, why would he use a different word for “virgin” here? Also, Jesus was his name, not Immanuel. And how can being a virgin be a sign to the people? How many people knew she was a virgin? Who could prove it? This is what Strong’s says about Immanuel: ================================= H6005 עמּנוּאל ‛immânû'êl im-maw-noo-ale' From H5973 and H410 with suffix pronoun inserted; with us (is) God; Immanuel, a name of Isaiah’s son: – Immanuel. ================================= So if you are saying that Isa 7:14 is about Mary, Isaiah’s wife must have been a virgin too.” Not so. God preferred to reveal in the NT that Mary was a virgin. It would not fit in the Ot if that detail had been given. It was essential for establishing parentage that Mary was a virgin. The NT reveals the fullness of the OT. The NT is equally the Word of God. It is sufficient proof to believers. God was indeed with us in Christ as reflected in 1 Tim 3.16. It is shortsighted to expect it to be his given name.

Is this the best Christianity on this board has to offer? Weak apologetics and pie-in-the-sky suppositions based on a blind and baseless faith? I need to recruit someone else to answer these questions.

[NickHassan]

Hi tow,
We do not claim to be scholarly or clever.
You will find lots of them on other sites.

You have presented what, on the surface, appear to you to be conflicts
But they do not exist in the whole Word of God

“Believe in God. Believe also in me”

[Towshab]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 16 2008,20:33)

Hi tow, We do not claim to be scholarly or clever. You will find lots of them on other sites. You have presented what, on the surface, appear to you to be conflicts But they do not exist in the whole Word of God “Believe in God. Believe also in me”

In other words: “Sorry, I plead the 5th”.

[NickHassan]

Hi tow,
You are so set in your contemptuous disbelief
that anyone trying to show you a glimmer of light will only make you angry.

[Towshab]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 16 2008,20:42)

Hi tow, You are so set in your contemptuous disbelief that anyone trying to show you a glimmer of light will only make you angry.

Angry? I laugh when I see some of your responses. Then I am sad, thinking that people are so mislead as to continue to come up with excuses in the face of overwhelming evidence. The river of denial is common among alcoholics, depressed people, and Christians it seems. They know there is a problem yet won't admit it.

[Son of Light]

Isaiah 9:6 LXX

6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

Just wanted to show this version, since you guys are discussing it.

[Towshab]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 17 2008,04:38)

Isaiah 9:6 LXX 6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. Just wanted to show this version, since you guys are discussing it.

Bring health? He died, that's not very healthy .

[942767]

Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 29 2007,12:53)

What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill? (1) Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1). (2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa 43:5-6, Isa 27:12-13 & 11:12). (3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. (Isa 2:4, Isa 11:6, Micah 4:3) (4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. (Isa 11:9, Isa 40:5, Jer 31:31-34, Zec 14:9, Zep 3:9). (5) Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon (Is 11:1, Jer 23:5, Eze 34:23-24, 2 Sam 7:12-14, 1 Chr 17:11) (6) Will not lead people to disobey Torah (Deu 13:1-4). Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these? Not yet. Much less all six. This includes Jesus of Nazareth, Theudas (Acts 5:36), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Benjamin the Egyptian, Menachem, or Simeon Bar Kochba. What do all of these men have in common? They died by crucifixion and they claimed to be the King Messiah.

You say:

What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill?

(1) Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1).

The temple that is being built is the body of Christ.  We the members of His body are the Holy Temple of God.

The instructions regarding the temple in Ezekiel were given the Jews who were in Babylonian captivity, and the building of that temple was to be conditional upon their repentance.  Apparently, that temple was not built because they did not meet the conditons.

Ezekiel 40:1
In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth * * year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither.  
40:2
In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.  

Ezekiel 43:6
And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.  
43:7
And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.  
43:8
In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.  
43:9
Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.  
43:10
Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.  
43:11
And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

Again, the instructions for this temple were for those who were in Babylonian captivity.

There is no need for the reinstitution of animal sacrifice now that God has given His Only Begotten Son as a perfect sacrifice, and He would not be giving anyone any instructions to reinstitute animal sacrifices.

I know that the Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah will rebuild this temple and reinstitute animal sacrifices but these are not instructions from God to do so.  This is a misunderstanding.

THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANY FURTHER SACRIFICE.  GOD HAS PROVIDED HIMSELF THE SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!!

[NickHassan]

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 17 2008,21:22)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 16 2008,20:42) Hi tow, You are so set in your contemptuous disbelief that anyone trying to show you a glimmer of light will only make you angry. Angry? I laugh when I see some of your responses. Then I am sad, thinking that people are so mislead as to continue to come up with excuses in the face of overwhelming evidence. The river of denial is common among alcoholics, depressed people, and Christians it seems. They know there is a problem yet won't admit it.

Hi tow,
So it is us who are in denial?
I see.
What of the Christ that you deny?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 17 2008,21:22)

Then I am sad, thinking that people are so mislead as to continue to come up with excuses in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Tow,
If you had to write a short summary on what is the evidence that Jesus is not the Christ, what would you say? Do you have time to address this for me? I'd really appreciate it. I've tried to study in various forums, but a half a dozen points or so in one place, like here, would really be helpful.

Thanks,
Mandy

[kejonn]

Its all in the terminology IMHO Mandy. However, if you go to first post of this thread, you will find the passages about “King Messiah”. However, when you go to the OT you will not find any passages that match “messiah” up with what Tow is calling “King Messiah”. A swap has taken place and people don't like talking about it — the coming son of David was never referred to as “messiah”! The Jews simply adopted “messiah” to the son of David because of Jesus!

The Hebrew term for “messiah” or simply “anointed” is “mashiyach”, and is never used of the coming son of David in the OT. So to be painfully blunt, the Jews and Christians have been battling each other for no strong reason. Jesus did not match the coming son of David because he was never meant to. That one is supposed to be a conquering king much like David himself. Jesus was nothing like that.

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
But he will be.
His initial foray was to set up outposts of faith.
He wanted an army from among men to support him when he returns as King.

[kejonn]

Nick,

Are you certain that Jesus and Shiloh are one in the same? The OT actually says very little of the coming son of David, and only a little more of the world to come. So how can you be certain they are one in the same and that Jesus' was not to be someone totally different?

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
How do you know your Mum is your real Mum?
Could you have been swapped at birth?
You were there, but not aware.
Faith preceeds knowledge.

Rest in Jesus and let him show you.

[kejonn]

But you don't seem to realize that Jesus and the son of David spoken of in the OT are two different cats. That does not lessen Jesus, it makes him someone different. Your are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
I do not see that.
Meek and gentle when he came on his short foray
but a man of power and strength when he comes back as anointed ruler.
Luke 1:32
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luke 18:39
And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou son of David, have mercy on me
Lk 20
37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

39Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.

40And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.

41And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?

42And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

43Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

44David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

[Towshab]

How can he be the son of David when he was born of a virgin?

[acertainchap]

About Jesus…

Jeremiah 23:5

5 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.

[Towshab]

Nah Chap, that ain't Jesus either. The very next verse says:

Jer 23:6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: 'The LORD is our righteousness.'

Did that happen? No, in fact, 40 years later the temple and Jerusalem was destroyed, so quite the opposite took place.

Keep searching, Chap, keep searching.

[Towshab]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 17 2008,12:51)

Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 29 2007,12:53) What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill? (1) Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1). (2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa 43:5-6, Isa 27:12-13 & 11:12). (3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. (Isa 2:4, Isa 11:6, Micah 4:3) (4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. (Isa 11:9, Isa 40:5, Jer 31:31-34, Zec 14:9, Zep 3:9). (5) Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon (Is 11:1, Jer 23:5, Eze 34:23-24, 2 Sam 7:12-14, 1 Chr 17:11) (6) Will not lead people to disobey Torah (Deu 13:1-4). Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these? Not yet. Much less all six. This includes Jesus of Nazareth, Theudas (Acts 5:36), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Benjamin the Egyptian, Menachem, or Simeon Bar Kochba. What do all of these men have in common? They died by crucifixion and they claimed to be the King Messiah. You say: What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill? (1) Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1). The temple that is being built is the body of Christ. We the members of His body are the Holy Temple of God. The instructions regarding the temple in Ezekiel were given the Jews who were in Babylonian captivity, and the building of that temple was to be condional upon their repentance. Apparently, that temple was not built because they did not meet the conditons. Ezekiel 40:1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth * * year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither. 40:2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south. Ezekiel 43:6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me. 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places. 43:8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger. 43:9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever. 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern. 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them. Again, the instructions for this temple were for those who were in Babylonian captivity. There is no need for the reinstitution of animal sacrifice now that God has given His Only Begotten Son as a perfect sacrifice, and He would not be giving anyone any instructions to reinstitute animal sacrifices. I know that the Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah will rebuild this temple and reinstitute animal sacrifices but these are not instructions from God to do so. This is a misunderstanding. THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANY FURTHER SACRIFICE. GOD HAS PROVIDED HIMSELF THE SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!!

–Snicker– Keep on a wishin' and looking to the sky.

[Author]

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