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Quote Hi TOW,
From another site for your informationBE BORN AS A HUMAN MALE
Woah, no kidding? Well since approximately half of the human population fits that category, that’s really a hard prophecy to fulfill!
Quote Isaiah 9:6-7 [6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. … 700 B.C. Christians want to claim that this is Jesus, when in reality it is King Hezekiah. Did Jesus or his disciples ever claim it? No, but this does not stop Christians from latching on to it to apply to Jesus. Desperation.
But here’s an oddity: it says in the Christian translations that this person is to be called “Everlasting Father”. What did Jesus say?
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Mat 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
=================================How do you reconcile these two?
And how can he be the “Prince of Peace” when he said boldly
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Mat 10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
=================================I see no “Prince of Peace” in that statement. So no, Isa 9:6 is definitely NOT about Jesus.
Quote BORN OF A VIRGIN Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 700 B.C.
The word the Christian translators use for “virgin” in this verse is “almah”, which means “young woman”. Were you aware that Isaiah used the word “virgin” 4 times in Isaiah (23:12, 37:22, 47:1, 62:5)? Each time it was the proper Hebrew word “bethulah”. Now, if Isaiah knows the right word for virgin and uses it 4 times, why would he use a different word for “virgin” here?
Also, Jesus was his name, not Immanuel. And how can being a virgin be a sign to the people? How many people knew she was a virgin? Who could prove it? This is what Strong’s says about Immanuel:
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H6005
עמּנוּאל
‛immânû'êl
im-maw-noo-ale'
From H5973 and H410 with suffix pronoun inserted; with us (is) God; Immanuel, a name of Isaiah’s son: – Immanuel.
=================================So if you are saying that Isa 7:14 is about Mary, Isaiah’s wife must have been a virgin too.
Finally, when did this happen in Jesus’ life?
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Isa 7:16 For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted.
=================================Just another case of pulling passages out of context to try to make Jesus into something he is not.
Quote FROM THE HOUSE OF JUDAH Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above. 700 B.C.
Matthew 1:1-2, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son [descendant] of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, [16] and [a later] Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
FROM THE ROOT AND STUMP OF JESSE
Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. 700 B.C.
Isaiah 11:1-5 [1] A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. [2] The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him– the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD– [3] and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; [4] but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. [5] Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist. 700 B.C.
FROM THE HOUSE OF DAVID
Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it–one from the house of David–one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness. 700 B.C.
According to your GT, Joseph was not his father. Clan passes through the father. Thus, Jesus was not truly of the house of Judah, from Jesse, or from the house of David. Matthew and Luke made more problems by inserting the pagan idea of virgin birth because there can be no established paternal bloodline.
Quote BORN IN BETHLEHEM EPHRATHAH Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. 700 B.C.
This simply reiterates the above, that the King Messiah will come from the clan of Bethlehem Ephrathah. Note the use of “clans” above. There is nothing in Micah 5:2 which says he must be born in that geographical location. Again, just a case of forcing ideas into Jesus’ life to try to legitimize his claim.
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1Sa 17:12 Now David was the son of an Ephrathite of Bethlehem in Judah, named Jesse, who had eight sons. In the days of Saul the man was already old and advanced in years.
=================================Quote BE FROM NAZARETH OF GALILEE Isaiah 9:1-2 [1] Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan — [2] The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned. 700 B.C.
I see no Nazareth here. Plus, Matthew has him going to Nazareth after returning from Egypt out of fear, Luke has his parents living in Nazareth before his birth.
Quote HIS BIRTH WOULD TRIGGER A MASSACRE OF INFANT BOYS Jeremiah 31:15 This is what the LORD says: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more.” 625 B.C.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the massacre of infant boys. This is about the children of Israel in exile:
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Jer 31:16 Thus says the LORD: “Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears, for there is a reward for your work, declares the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17 There is hope for your future, declares the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country.
===============================Context rules the day!!
Quote COME OUT OF EGYPT Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 725 B.C.
This is not prophecy, this merely says what happened at the Exodus! But if you say it is Jesus, let’s look at the very next verse:
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Hos 11:2 The more they were called, the more they went away; they kept sacrificing to the Baals and burning offerings to idols.
===============================So are you willing to apply that to Jesus too?
Quote MISSION WOULD INCLUDE THE GENTILES Isaiah 49:6 he [the Lord] says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.” 700 B.C.
Look back three verses and you will know who the servant is:
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Isa 49:3 And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
===============================Context rules the day!!
Quote Isaiah 42:1-4, 6 [1] “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. [2] He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. [3] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; [4] he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.” [6] “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, 700 B.C. In the previous chapter we find
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Isa 41:8 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
===============================So again, the servant is Israel. But let’s assume it is Jesus for the sake of having fun. What of these verses?
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Isa 42:19 Who is blind but my servant, or deaf as my messenger whom I send? Who is blind as my dedicated one, or blind as the servant of the LORD?
Isa 42:20 He sees many things, but does not observe them; his ears are open, but he does not hear.Here G-d must be saying that Jesus is blind and deaf! And He says he sees many things, but does not observe them, his ears are open but he does not hear.
OK, you’re right, that’s Jesus! –Snicker—
Quote MINISTRY WOULD INCLUDE MIRACULOUS HEALINGS Isaiah 29:18 In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see. 700 B.C.
This has nothing to do with physical healing of sight as the context tells
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Isa 29:10 For the LORD has poured out upon you a spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes (the prophets), and covered your heads (the seers).
Isa 29:11 And the vision of all this has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed. When men give it to one who can read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.”
Isa 29:12 And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.”
Isa 29:13 And the Lord said: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men,
Isa 29:14 therefore, behold, I will again do wonderful things with this people, with wonder upon wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hidden.”
===============================Please show me in the context of Isa 29 where there will be physical healings of sight. I await with baited breath.
Quote Isaiah 35:5-6a [5] Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. [6a] Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy. 700 B.C. You forgot the other passages around this one:
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Isa 35:1 The wilderness and the dry land shall be glad; the desert shall rejoice and blossom like the crocus;
Isa 35:2 it shall blossom abundantly and rejoice with joy and singing. The glory of Lebanon shall be given to it, the majesty of Carmel and Sharon. They shall see the glory of the LORD, the majesty of our God.Isa 35:7 the burning sand shall become a pool, and the thirsty ground springs of water; in the haunt of jackals, where they lie down, the grass shall become reeds and rushes.
Isa 35:8 And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it. It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray.
Isa 35:9 No lion shall be there, nor shall any ravenous beast come up on it; they shall not be found there, but the redeemed shall walk there.
Isa 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
===============================Again, just a case of Christians pulling obscure passages out of context and ignoring the rest of the passage. Jesus is the promised one (if you turn your head right, stand on one foot, hoot like and howl and chant “hail Mary” three times while drinking a glass of milk)!
Quote MINISTRY WOULD DELIVER SPIRITUAL CAPTIVES Isaiah 61:1-2 [1] The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, [2] to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, 700 B.C.
These apologetics, never continuing on when they know the supposed prophecy about Jesus would fall short! Continue please:
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Isa 61:4 They shall build up the ancient ruins; they shall raise up the former devastations; they shall repair the ruined cities, the devastations of many generations.
Isa 61:5 Strangers shall stand and tend your flocks; foreigners shall be your plowmen and vinedressers;
=====================================Tell me, did this happen in Jesus’ day? Nope. In fact, 40 years later the city and temple was made into ruins, not built up!
In any case, Isa 61:1-2 is Isaiah speaking of himself. Sheesh.
Quote DESPISED AND REJECTED BY MEN Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 700 B.C.
The Crucifixion narratives in all four Gospels show this prophecy fulfilled.
All throughout Isaiah, Israel (Jacob) is called G-d’s servant. In any case, why do you think Jesus or his disciples never claimed Isa 53 for Jesus? Not even Paul did. Only Christians who desperately needed to find Jesus spoken of somewhere in Tanakh. They stumbled upon Isa 53 and said “there!”. Finally, a passage about Jesus!! Is it?
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Isa 52:15 so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which has not been told them they see, and that which they have not heard they understand.
=====================================What King ever shut their mouth because of Jesus? And how does the following match Christian theology which says people must accept Jesus as lord to be healed?
=====================================
Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned–every one–to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
=====================================The suffering servant in this passage is despised and rejected, so how can the stripes heal those whop despise and reject him? And was it not his death which healed? It says “stripes” here, not death. But what of this?
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Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
=====================================The opposite was written of Jesus: he died with the wicked and his grave was with a rich man. To continue further
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Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
=====================================I though it was the blood of Jesus that atoned for sin? Here it says “soul”. Actually, that word is the key to overcome bad Christian translations: one makes offering to redeem the soul. Therefore this verse speaks of the suffering servant making restitution for his own soul, not that of others. Finally, the word for “offspring” is “zera” which means physical seed. Since Jesus did not have any children, he did not pass on any physical seed.
Quote HATED WITHOUT CAUSE Psalm 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. 1000 B.C.
And the very next verse says…drum roll please…
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Psa 69:5 O God, you know my folly; the wrongs I have done are not hidden from you.
=====================================GASP! “The wrongs I’ve done”? Wait, I though Jesus did no wrong?
Quote Isaiah 49:7 This is what the LORD says– the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel– to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: “Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.” 700 B.C. Isa 49:3 And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
Sorry, not Jesus.
Quote REJECTED BY RULERS Psalm 118:22 The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone [cornerstone of a building]; [23] the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes. before 400 B.C.
Interesting. Let’s look at more of this chapter, shall we?
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Psa 118:13 I was pushed hard, so that I was falling, but the LORD helped me.
Psa 118:14 The LORD is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation.
Psa 118:15 Glad songs of salvation are in the tents of the righteous: “The right hand of the LORD does valiantly,
Psa 118:16 the right hand of the LORD exalts, the right hand of the LORD does valiantly!”
Psa 118:17 I shall not die, but I shall live, and recount the deeds of the LORD.
Psa 118:18 The LORD has disciplined me severely, but he has not given me over to death.
=====================================Again, this is Jesus? No, it is David giving praise to YHVH. Wh ywould G-d need to discipline his ever so perfect and faithful son?!?
Quote REJECTED BY HIS OWN BROTHERS Psalms 69:8 I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother's sons 1000 B.C.
Once more the fateful verse comes up:
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Psa 69:5 O God, you know my folly; the wrongs I have done are no
t hidden from you.
=====================================Jesus? If you say so.
Quote BETRAYED FOR 30 PIECES OF SILVER Zechariah 11:12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 500 B.C.
There is no betrayal here, at least not one selling out a person to another.
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Zec 11:9 So I said, “I will not be your shepherd. What is to die, let it die. What is to be destroyed, let it be destroyed. And let those who are left devour the flesh of one another.”
Zec 11:10 And I took my staff Favor, and I broke it, annulling the covenant that I had made with all the peoples.
Zec 11:11 So it was annulled on that day, and the sheep traders, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the LORD.
Zec 11:12 Then I said to them, “If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver.
=====================================Without context, you can “prove” anything. With context, you have nothing.
Quote SILVER USED TO BUY POTTER'S FIELD Zechariah 11:12-13 [12] I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. [13] And the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter”–the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter. 500 B.C.
Matthew 27:3-10 [3] When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. [4] “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That's your responsibility.” [5] So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. [6] The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” [7] So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. [8] That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. [9] Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, [10] and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me.”
This one is hilarious. I left the GT passage in this time to make Matthew look like the moron he was. Was this “prophecy” (which is no prophecy by the way, read the chapter) spoken of by Jeremiah? In the book of Zechariah? Not likely! In any case, the money was not used to by a potter’s field in Zech 11, it was given to a potter! You can see that in the Zec 11:12-13 listed above.
Sheesh, at least check out what you post and pull out the embarrassing ones.
Quote DISCIPLES WOULD SCATTER Zechariah 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!” declares the LORD Almighty. “Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones.” 500 B.C.
One of my favorites, I must admit. Any Christian that lists this passage deserves what they get. From the KJV
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Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
Zec 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
Zec 13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
Zec 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
=====================================You just listed a passage which shows Jesus to be a false prophet. Classic.
Hi Tow,
I am pleased you got all that off your chest.
Now you can go off looking for your messiah.
And we can continue to learn from Messiah.Besides, I don't pine my life away looking for the King Messiah. He will come when G-d is ready for Him to come.
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 16 2008,05:45) And I'm glad you ignored all of it, although I prophesied that you would (at least to myself) 
.
Hi tow,
You told us you were not a prophet!
If you were you would show more powers than you accredit to God and His servants.I didn't ignore all of it. I'm searching it out.
Nick, when you reconcile what Tow has shown, what do you come up with?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 15 2008,12:55) I didn't ignore all of it. I'm searching it out. Nick, when you reconcile what Tow has shown, what do you come up with?
You didn't read his answer?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,12:24) Hi Tow,
I am pleased you got all that off your chest.
Now you can go off looking for your messiah.
And we can continue to learn from Messiah.
Did Jesus fulfill hundreds of prophecies? Check this link out: A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery. From that page
My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning. Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d’s words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.The various links that are attached to the above website should keep me busy most of tonight. Thanks for sharing this information with us, Tow.
Nick, I have compassion for Christians who have been in the faith for many, many years. It seems they want to “finish strong” and because of this feeling of devotion, they do not search out possible contradictions in scripture. Billy Graham was one of these. I have a TIME Magazine article where he says, and I quote, “I wish I had more time to comtemplate the scriptures. Now I have to remain sure of what I know.” This is such a sad testimony. It is possible that we become stag and do not wonder, what if? It takes great pains to search out and to compare. Because in the end, we may find out that what we have been devoted to doesn't pan out? That is where I am at right now. And this is why I am not answering Ken's question. Jesus certainly IS the Messiah the New Testement reveals. This much I know. But now I'm wondering why the NT reveals him? Does he meet the criteria for what the OT predicted? If not, how can we embrace him?
You can also download mp3s of Rabbi Tovia Singer's “Let's Get Biblical” series here. Rabbi Singer is very well spoken and he sounds like Jerry Seinfield to me
. That series is what pushed me over the edge and I have not looked back.Hi not3,
Billy Graham, the mason, taught a form of salvation that is not written.
Should men have revered him as they did?Take time and go through all the protesting challenges to Christ and you will see that the wisdom of God is greater than their rebellion and your decision was the right one even if you are never in command of all knowledge.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:18) Here are some quick links to get you started, mandy. I am not familiar with the content of all these links. Don't consider them true nor my views. Just consider it information whether good or bad.
I just want to help add to your pool of knowledge to help your search.
http://jesusdynasty.com/blog/2006/08/31/jesus-and-the-essenes/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource….es.html
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/xenochian.html
http://www.all-creatures.org/hr/hrajesus.htm
Did you look at any of these Mandy?Just wanted to make sure you saw them.
SOL – I didn't see them! Thanks for bumping them for me. I'll check these out tonight as well. Good stuff brothers – thanks!
And Nick, I liked what you said here:
Quote and your decision was the right one even if you are never in command of all knowledge.
This could very well be true. When I have finished trying to understand the knowledge…..I'll have to rest on these words. Thanks.An interesting video
http://www.thegodmovie.com/pagan/?gclid=CPiS_Nfi5o8CFQspFQod9g
And a place to buy the video on Amazon:
I agree Tow:
These are real questions that Christians need to face.
Paul ran with a pagan theme:
Colossians 1
23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
If you notice Paul says his gospel had ALREADY been preached to everyone. He was simply made a minister of it.
Paul combined the teachings of the Nazarenes with a gospel of Roman mystery religions that the whole earth had already heard before. He claimed basically that this time it was “real”.That being said historians, scholars and archeologists believe Jesus existed and belonged to a nazarene/essene community and claimed to be the messiah of peace who knew THE WAY.
This is the church of James the Just, Peter and John.
Hi SOL,
You quote
Colossians 123If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Indeed Paul preached the gospel entrusted to him to all creatures [who were with him when ever he preached]
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