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Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,09:24) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,09:16) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:15) Much of the dead sea scrolls is not yet public. Makes you wonder what powers that be that are trying to push this under the carpet. Both orthodox Jews and Christians don't want to deal with this information.
It is NOT that they have a pure Torah, rather pure teachings.
They believed the torah corrupted.
SOLIf they havnt published them then how can you know that they support your view?
How can we deal with information we dont have?
because the info WE DO HAVE.It is pretty clear archeologicaly and textually that Jesus was of an Essene background.
I would think Tow would even acknowledge this.
He does not have to believe the essenes were anything more than a cult, but I think he would agree that Jesus comes from that sect.
HUH?Does the info we have say the dead sea scrolls that has not been released, has the information to support your belief concerning the “Commentarys” that are supposedly there?
We do have released information.I am saying that beyond that are unrealeased texts.
SOLWhere? And if they havnt been released, where did the source that you have not provided get the info?
hear what James Tabor says:
http://jesusdynasty.com/blog/2006/08/31/jesus-and-the-essenes/
about James Tabor:
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geza_Vermes
===================================
Géza Vermes, Th.D., D. Litt. (born 22 June 1924) is a scholar and writer on religious history, particularly Jewish and Christian. He is a noted authority on the Dead Sea Scrolls and other ancient works in Aramaic, and an authority on the life and religion of Jesus. Vermes' written work on Jesus focuses principally on Jesus the Jew, as seen in the broader context of the narrative scope of Jewish history and theology.He was born in Makó, Hungary, in 1924 to Jewish parents. All three were baptised as Roman Catholics when he was seven. His mother and journalist father died in the Holocaust. After the Second World War, he became a priest, studied first in Budapest and then at the College St Albert and the Catholic University of Leuven in Belgium, where he read Oriental history and languages and in 1953 obtained a doctorate in theology with a dissertation on the historical framework of the Dead Sea Scrolls. He left the Catholic church in 1957; and, reasserting his Jewish identity, came to Britain and took up a teaching post at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne.
Vermes was one of the first scholars to examine the Dead Sea Scrolls after their discovery in 1947, and is the author of the standard translation into English of the Dead Sea Scrolls: The Dead Sea Scrolls in English.
===================================If you look hard enough, you'll find that Mr. Vermes returned to the faith of his birth due to his work with the DSS.
You might want to check out this article by Mr. Vermes: When you strip away all the pious fiction, what is left of the real Jesus?. Excerpts:
=======================================
Because of His healings, many saw in Jesus the Messiah, triumphant over Rome and establisher of everlasting peace. Yet he had no political ambition. Rumours that He might be the Christ were nevertheless spreading and contributed to His downfall. His tragic end was precipitated by an unpremeditated act in the Temple. The noisy business transacted by the merchants of sacrificial animals and the moneychangers so outraged the rural holy man that He overturned their tables and violently expelled them. He thus created a fracas in the sanctuary of the overcrowded city before Passover and alerted the priests.So the Temple authorities, the official guardians of peace, saw in Jesus a potential threat to order. They had to intervene promptly. Nevertheless even in those circumstances, the Jewish leadership preferred to pass the ultimate responsibility to the cruel Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, who condemned Jesus to death. He was crucified before Passover probably in AD30 because in the eyes of officialdom, Roman and Jewish, He had done the wrong thing in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Just as the New Testament had prefaced the biography of Jesus by the joyful prologue of the Nativity, it also appended an epilogue to the tragedy of the Cross, the glorious hymn of the Resurrection. Indeed, Jesus had made such a profound impact on His apostles that they attributed to the power of His name the continued success of their charismatic activity. So Jesus rose from the dead in the hearts of His disciples and He lives on as long as the Christian Church endures.
======================================IOW, no literal resurrection but a resurrection of his simple teachings. That is a Jesus I can understand. Not a Jesus that we are forced to believe in to avoid burning in a fiery pit.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:28) hear what James Tabor says: http://jesusdynasty.com/blog/2006/08/31/jesus-and-the-essenes/
about James Tabor:
SOLHere is a quote from the first link…
“From this material alone I think we can say that Jesus and his movement fit best against the background or the kind of apocalyptic/Messianic Judaism that we see reflected in the Scrolls.But that is not to say that Jesus or his followers were “card carrying” members of the Essenes. I rather think they were not. There are also sharp and strong differences. The Essenes, at least as we know them in the Scrolls, would have likely considered Jesus a teacher of “smooth things.” His relations with women, Gentiles, even Roman soldiers, and his attitude toward Sabbath observance and ritual purity, as well as other Halachic matters would have seen to them as lax and lacking. I do not think that he violated such things with a “high hand,” but that he interpreted the Torah on the principle that “Laws are for people, not people for laws.” One good example is the Scrolls forbid helping an animal that has fallen into a pit or well on Shabbat, whereas Jesus, agreeing with the Pharisees, asks, “Which of you would not help such a creature on the Shabbat?”
“think it likely that scores of “Essenes” and “Essene types” or sympathizers were drawn to John the Baptizer and Jesus and James. That is why I am so fond of Robert Eisenman’s designation: The Messianic movement in Palestine…He does not get caught up on labels and modern disputes about who calls whom what. What links the groups is the language, the core ideas, the vocabulary, and the key concepts they shared. I do indeed think we can best understand Jesus and his movement, before and after his life, in that wider context we see reflected in the Scrolls. “
This guy is an appologist and uses the words “I think” or ” its likely” quite often.
From what I can see there is a lot of ambiguity concerning what the Essenes believed and especially as to the claim that Yeshua is an essene.
Besides, I dont think Yeshua would be associated with any particular group or sect.
“I am the way the truth and the life”. Jn 14:6
And he lived his life showing the way.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,09:45) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:28) hear what James Tabor says: http://jesusdynasty.com/blog/2006/08/31/jesus-and-the-essenes/
about James Tabor:
SOLHere is a quote from the first link…
“From this material alone I think we can say that Jesus and his movement fit best against the background or the kind of apocalyptic/Messianic Judaism that we see reflected in the Scrolls.But that is not to say that Jesus or his followers were “card carrying” members of the Essenes. I rather think they were not. There are also sharp and strong differences. The Essenes, at least as we know them in the Scrolls, would have likely considered Jesus a teacher of “smooth things.” His relations with women, Gentiles, even Roman soldiers, and his attitude toward Sabbath observance and ritual purity, as well as other Halachic matters would have seen to them as lax and lacking. I do not think that he violated such things with a “high hand,” but that he interpreted the Torah on the principle that “Laws are for people, not people for laws.” One good example is the Scrolls forbid helping an animal that has fallen into a pit or well on Shabbat, whereas Jesus, agreeing with the Pharisees, asks, “Which of you would not help such a creature on the Shabbat?”
“think it likely that scores of “Essenes” and “Essene types” or sympathizers were drawn to John the Baptizer and Jesus and James. That is why I am so fond of Robert Eisenman’s designation: The Messianic movement in Palestine…He does not get caught up on labels and modern disputes about who calls whom what. What links the groups is the language, the core ideas, the vocabulary, and the key concepts they shared. I do indeed think we can best understand Jesus and his movement, before and after his life, in that wider context we see reflected in the Scrolls. “
This guy is an appologist and uses the words “I think” or ” its likely” quite often.
From what I can see there is a lot of ambiguity concerning what the Essenes believed and especially as to the claim that Yeshua is an essene.
Besides, I dont think Yeshua would be associated with any particular group or sect.
“I am the way the truth and the life”. Jn 14:6
And he lived his life showing the way.
right he was from a simular sect.Nazarene.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,09:55) Hi SOL,
So Jesus was following another man?
Wrong again. He is the Master.
You are deceived.
No he was the Messiah for the Nazarenes.What do you mean he followed a man?
If I was to say he was from a pharisee Jew division of Judaism would you say the samething?
He was from a nazarene/essene tradition. His Judaism was nazarene and not pharisee.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,09:55) Hi SOL,
So Jesus was following another man?
Wrong again. He is the Master.
You are deceived.
I agree.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,10:00) What do you mean he followed a man?
That was a question by Nick. Not a statement.Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 15 2008,10:02) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,10:00) What do you mean he followed a man?
That was a question by Nick. Not a statement.
He acted as if he knew the answer by his next sentences.When he says:
Wrong again. He is the Master.
You are deceived.Hi SOL,
The man from Nazareth who lived in Capernaum was not a member of any sect.
He was a reborn son at the Jordan
He followed God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,10:36) Hi SOL,
The man from Nazareth who lived in Capernaum was not a member of any sect.
He was a reborn son at the Jordan
He followed God.
So he grew up in a secular athiestic family in the middle of 1st century palestine.Um, yeah right.
He grew up in the setting he was suppost to grow up into.
Anyone ever wonder where it was written he would be called a nazarene?
It was a nazarene/essene prophecy not found in the torah.
He was supposed to be born among the nazarenes and lead the way of love, truth, light and righteousness. Which he was.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,10:51) Hi SOL,
Because he came from Nazareth?
look up the evidence that nazareth did not even exist in 1st century palestine.That was a coverup to hide that Jesus was a nazarene essene.
Hi SOL,
Matthew 2:23
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.And the Jewish view of Paul is full of falsehoods. The sect referred to is one of them and has no validity about a man following Christ who followed no sect leader.
1And after five days Ananias the high priest descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul.2And when he was called forth, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying, Seeing that by thee we enjoy great quietness, and that very worthy deeds are done unto this nation by thy providence,
3We accept it always, and in all places, most noble Felix, with all thankfulness.
4Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words.
5For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,09:22) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,16:09) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,08:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,15:18) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 14 2008,16:59) What I am trying to say is that the OT does not imply the Christ will come twice. Am I wrong?
not3But it dosnt imply his coming will only be once either.
Trinitarians, the true masters of the argument from silence!
Quote Where is the scripture that says “all the prophesys” concerning him would be fulfilled at his coming?”.
Well one or two of them would be nice to get the ball rolling in the right direction
TowIts no more silence than what you say.
You take isolated text and assume that they all will be fulfilled when he first comes with no proof that this is so.
Where is the scripture that says when he comes all the prophesys will be fullfilled?
Its simply not there and to say other wise is inferrence!
OK then, exactly which Messianic prophecies DID he fulfill?
Hi TOW,
From another site for your informationBE BORN AS A HUMAN MALE
Isaiah 9:6-7 [6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. … 700 B.C.
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
John 1:1-3, 14 [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was with God in the beginning. [3] Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [14] The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
BORN OF A VIRGIN
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 700 B.C.
Mattthew 1:20-23 [20] But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. [21] She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” [22] All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: [23] “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” –which means, “God with us.”
FROM THE HOUSE OF JUDAH
Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above. 700 B.C.
Matthew 1:1-2, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son [descendant] of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, [16] and [a later] Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
FROM THE ROOT AND STUMP OF JESSE
Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. 700 B.C.
Isaiah 11:1-5 [1] A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. [2] The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him– the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD– [3] and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; [4] but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. [5] Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist. 700 B.C.
Romans 15:12 And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him.”
Matthew 1:1-2a, 5-6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, … [5] … Obed the father of Jesse, [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
FROM THE HOUSE OF DAVID
Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it–one from the house of David–one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness. 700 B.C.
Matthew 1:1-2A, 6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, … [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
BORN IN BETHLEHEM EPHRATHAH
Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. 700 B.C.
Matthew 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
Over the years there have been a number of “Bethlehems” in Israel. At the time of Jesus' birth, Bethlehem Ephrathah, referred to in Matthew as “Bethlehem in Judea”, was a village about five miles south of Jerusalem, and there also was a town named Bethlehem about seven miles northwest of Nazareth. (Per footnote Matthew 2:1 of the Zondervan NIV Study Bible, 10th Anniversary Edition, © 1995)
BE FROM NAZARETH OF GALILEE
Isaiah 9:1-2 [1] Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan — [2] The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned. 700 B.C.
Matthew 2:22-23 [22] But when he
heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, [23] and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: “He will be called a Nazarene.”Matthew 4:13-16 [13] Leaving Nazareth, he [Jesus] went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali– [14] to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah: [15] “Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles — [16] the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.”
HIS BIRTH WOULD TRIGGER A MASSACRE OF INFANT BOYS
Jeremiah 31:15 This is what the LORD says: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more.” 625 B.C.
Matthew 2:16-18 [16] When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. [17] Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: [18] “A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.”
An interesting side note: most people think that Herod killed thousands of babies. However, Bethlehem was “in the boondocks.” The chances are that less than thirty babies were killed.
COME OUT OF EGYPT
Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 725 B.C.
Matthew 2:14-15 [14] So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, [15] where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”
MISSION WOULD INCLUDE THE GENTILES
Isaiah 49:6 he [the Lord] says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.” 700 B.C.
Isaiah 42:1-4, 6 [1] “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. [2] He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. [3] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; [4] he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.” [6] “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, 700 B.C.
Matthew 12:14-21 [14] But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus. [15] Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, [16] warning them not to tell who he was. [17] This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: [18] “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. [19] He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. [20] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. [21] In his name the nations will put their hope.”
Note that in Biblical usage the Gentiles are often referred to as “the nations.”
MINISTRY WOULD INCLUDE MIRACULOUS HEALINGS
Isaiah 29:18 In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see. 700 B.C.
Isaiah 35:5-6a [5] Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. [6a] Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy. 700 B.C.
Luke 7:20-22 [20] When the men came to Jesus, they said, “John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, `Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' ” [21] At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. [22] So he replied to the messengers, “Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.”
MINISTRY WOULD DELIVER SPIRITUAL CAPTIVES
Isaiah 61:1-2 [1] The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, [2] to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, 700 B.C.
Luke 4:16-21 [16] He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. [17] The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: [18] “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, [19] to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.” [20] Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, [21] and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
Not too shabby, considering it was His first sermon!
DESPISED AND REJECTED BY MEN
Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 700 B.C.
The Crucifixion narratives in all four Gospels show this prophecy fulfilled.
HATED WITHOUT CAUSE
Psalm 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. 1000 B.C.
Isaiah 49:7 This is what the LORD says– the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel– to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: “Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.” 700 B.C.
John 7:48-49 “Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? [49] No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law–there is a curse on them.”
John 15:24-25 [24] If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. [25] But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'
REJECTED BY RULERS
Psalm 118:22 The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone [cornerstone of a building]; [23] the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes. before 400 B.C.
Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:” `The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes' ?
John 7:48-49 Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? [49] No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law–there is a curse on them.
REJECTED BY HIS OWN BROTHERS
Psalms 69:8 I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother's sons 1000 B.C.
(Side note: this pretty much kills the Catholic Church's claim that when the Gospels name Jesus' brothers they are talking about His cousins.)
Mark 3:20-21 [20] Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. [21] When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
John 7:1-5 [1] After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. [2] But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, [3] Jesus' brothers said to him, “You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. [4] No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.” [5] For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
BETRAYED FOR 30 PIECES OF SILVER
Zechariah 11:12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 500 B.C.
Matthew 26:14-15 [14] Then one of the Twelve–the one called Judas Iscariot–went to the chief priests [15] and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.
SILVER RETURNED
SILVER USED TO BUY POTTER'S FIELD
Zechariah 11:12-13 [12] I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. [13] And the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter”–the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter. 500 B.C.
Matthew 27:3-10 [3] When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. [4] “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That's your responsibility.” [5] So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. [6] The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” [7] So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. [8] That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. [9] Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, [10] and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me.”
DISCIPLES WOULD SCATTER
Zechariah 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!” declares the LORD Almighty. “Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones.” 500 B.C.
Matthew 26:31 Then Jesus told them, “This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: ” `I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'”
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 04 2008,00:07) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 03 2008,23:45) Original Post because Nick Hassan has been playing topic cover-up on yet another thread.
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What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill?(1) Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1).
(2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa 43:5-6, Isa 27:12-13 & 11:12).
(3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. (Isa 2:4, Isa 11:6, Micah 4:3)
(4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. (Isa 11:9, Isa 40:5, Jer 31:31-34, Zec 14:9, Zep 3:9).
(5) Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon (Is 11:1, Jer 23:5, Eze 34:23-24, 2 Sam 7:12-14, 1 Chr 17:11)
(6) Will not lead people to disobey Torah (Deu 13:1-4). All though this is not messianic specifically, it is in the sense that the real King Messiah will NOT be like the ones spoken of in this passage. If someone matches this passage, you can be certain they are not king Messiah.
Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these? Not yet. Much less all six. This includes Jesus of Nazareth, Theudas (Acts 5:36), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Benjamin the Egyptian, Menachem, or Simeon Bar Kochba. What do all of these men have in common? They died by crucifixion and they claimed to be the King Messiah.
Jesus taught that the Kingdom of God is within you.That God Most High is Love.
That the laws that which burdened men where not of the Most High and he taught the Essenes Law as found in the sermon on the mount.
That God does not demand blood sacrifices like a vampire God.
Jesus was an Essene Messiah not a Pharisee or Saducee Messiah.
The Essenes correctly understood the corruption of the Torah made by Ezra and the returning scribes from captivity. When they made YHVH an angel (their tribal diety) into God Most High in order to establish a firm monothiesm. Scholars today call this the documentary hypothesis and confirm the teachings of Essenes by doing so.
Later his teachings were ripped out of context and he became a Messiah to a Pharisee form of Judaism. Which as Tow points out would not make any sense.
It is the tribal angel YHVH who cared about “national” interests of Israel. God Most High is the God of all nations not just Israel.
All NT Makes sense!Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 14 2008,20:05) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,09:22) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,16:09) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,08:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,15:18) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 14 2008,16:59) What I am trying to say is that the OT does not imply the Christ will come twice. Am I wrong?
not3But it dosnt imply his coming will only be once either.
Trinitarians, the true masters of the argument from silence!
Quote Where is the scripture that says “all the prophesys” concerning him would be fulfilled at his coming?”.
Well one or two of them would be nice to get the ball rolling in the right direction
TowIts no more silence than what you say.
You take isolated text and assume that they all will be fulfilled when he first comes with no proof that this is so.
Where is the scripture that says when he comes all the prophesys will be fullfilled?
Its simply not there and to say other wise is inferrence!
OK then, exactly which Messianic prophecies DID he fulfill?
Hi TOW,
From another site for your informationBE BORN AS A HUMAN MALE
Isaiah 9:6-7 [6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. … 700 B.C.
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
John 1:1-3, 14 [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was with God in the beginning. [3] Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [14] The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
BORN OF A VIRGIN
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 700 B.C.
Mattthew 1:20-23 [20] But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. [21] She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” [22] All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: [23] “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” –which means, “God with us.”
FROM THE HOUSE OF JUDAH
Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above. 700 B.C.
Matthew 1:1-2, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son [descendant] of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, [16] and [a later] Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
FROM THE ROOT AND STUMP OF JESSE
Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. 700 B.C.
Isaiah 11:1-5 [1] A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. [2] The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him– the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD– [3] and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; [4] but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. [5] Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist. 700 B.C.
Romans 15:12 And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him.”
Matthew 1:1-2a, 5-6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, … [5] … Obed the father of Jesse, [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
FROM THE HOUSE OF DAVID
Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it–one from the house of David–one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness. 700 B.C.
Matthew 1:1-2A, 6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, … [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
BORN IN BETHLEHEM EPHRATHAH
Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. 700 B.C.
Matthew 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
Over the years there have been a number of “Bethlehems” in Israel. At the time of Jesus' birth, Bethlehem Ephrathah, referred to in Matthew as “Bethlehem in Judea”, was a village about five miles south of Jerusalem, and there also was a town named Bethlehem about seven miles northwest of Nazareth. (Per footnote Matthew 2:1 of the Zondervan NIV Study Bible, 10th Anniversary Edition, © 1995)
BE FROM NAZARETH OF GALILEE
Isaiah 9:1-2 [1] Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way
of the sea, along the Jordan — [2] The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned. 700 B.C.Matthew 2:22-23 [22] But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, [23] and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: “He will be called a Nazarene.”
Matthew 4:13-16 [13] Leaving Nazareth, he [Jesus] went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali– [14] to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah: [15] “Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles — [16] the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.”
HIS BIRTH WOULD TRIGGER A MASSACRE OF INFANT BOYS
Jeremiah 31:15 This is what the LORD says: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more.” 625 B.C.
Matthew 2:16-18 [16] When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. [17] Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: [18] “A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.”
An interesting side note: most people think that Herod killed thousands of babies. However, Bethlehem was “in the boondocks.” The chances are that less than thirty babies were killed.
COME OUT OF EGYPT
Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 725 B.C.
Matthew 2:14-15 [14] So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, [15] where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”
MISSION WOULD INCLUDE THE GENTILES
Isaiah 49:6 he [the Lord] says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.” 700 B.C.
Isaiah 42:1-4, 6 [1] “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. [2] He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. [3] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; [4] he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.” [6] “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, 700 B.C.
Matthew 12:14-21 [14] But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus. [15] Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, [16] warning them not to tell who he was. [17] This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: [18] “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. [19] He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. [20] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. [21] In his name the nations will put their hope.”
Note that in Biblical usage the Gentiles are often referred to as “the nations.”
MINISTRY WOULD INCLUDE MIRACULOUS HEALINGS
Isaiah 29:18 In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see. 700 B.C.
Isaiah 35:5-6a [5] Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. [6a] Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy. 700 B.C.
Luke 7:20-22 [20] When the men came to Jesus, they said, “John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, `Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' ” [21] At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. [22] So he replied to the messengers, “Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.”
MINISTRY WOULD DELIVER SPIRITUAL CAPTIVES
Isaiah 61:1-2 [1] The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, [2] to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, 700 B.C.
Luke 4:16-21 [16] He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. [17] The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: [18] “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, [19] to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.” [20] Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, [21] and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
Not too shabby, considering it was His first sermon!
DESPISED AND REJECTED BY MEN
Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 700 B.C.
The Crucifixion narratives in all four Gospels show this prophecy fulfilled.
HATED WITHOUT CAUSE
Psalm 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. 1000 B.C.
Isaiah 49:7 This is what the LORD says– the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel– to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: “Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.” 700 B.C.
John 7:48-49 “Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? [49] No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law–there is a curse on them.”
John 15:24-25 [24] If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. [25] But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'
REJECTED BY RULERS
Psalm 118:22 The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone [cornerstone of a building]; [23] the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes. before 400 B.C.
Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:” `The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes' ?
John 7:48-49 Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? [49] No! But this mob th
at knows nothing of the law–there is a curse on them.REJECTED BY HIS OWN BROTHERS
Psalms 69:8 I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother's sons 1000 B.C.
(Side note: this pretty much kills the Catholic Church's claim that when the Gospels name Jesus' brothers they are talking about His cousins.)
Mark 3:20-21 [20] Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. [21] When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
John 7:1-5 [1] After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. [2] But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, [3] Jesus' brothers said to him, “You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. [4] No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.” [5] For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
BETRAYED FOR 30 PIECES OF SILVER
Zechariah 11:12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 500 B.C.
Matthew 26:14-15 [14] Then one of the Twelve–the one called Judas Iscariot–went to the chief priests [15] and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.
SILVER RETURNED
SILVER USED TO BUY POTTER'S FIELD
Zechariah 11:12-13 [12] I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. [13] And the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter”–the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter. 500 B.C.
Matthew 27:3-10 [3] When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. [4] “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That's your responsibility.” [5] So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. [6] The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” [7] So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. [8] That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. [9] Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, [10] and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me.”
DISCIPLES WOULD SCATTER
Zechariah 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!” declares the LORD Almighty. “Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones.” 500 B.C.
Matthew 26:31 Then Jesus told them, “This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: ” `I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'”
Nick, I will get to this list but please be aware that I have already refuted these some time back and encountered no counter refutation. SOL (as Morningstar) and Kenrch both supplied a lame list copied from another site just like you did. Can't you guys think for yourself?Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 14 2008,21:39) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 04 2008,00:07) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 03 2008,23:45) Original Post because Nick Hassan has been playing topic cover-up on yet another thread.
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What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill?(1) Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1).
(2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa 43:5-6, Isa 27:12-13 & 11:12).
(3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. (Isa 2:4, Isa 11:6, Micah 4:3)
(4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. (Isa 11:9, Isa 40:5, Jer 31:31-34, Zec 14:9, Zep 3:9).
(5) Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon (Is 11:1, Jer 23:5, Eze 34:23-24, 2 Sam 7:12-14, 1 Chr 17:11)
(6) Will not lead people to disobey Torah (Deu 13:1-4). All though this is not messianic specifically, it is in the sense that the real King Messiah will NOT be like the ones spoken of in this passage. If someone matches this passage, you can be certain they are not king Messiah.
Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these? Not yet. Much less all six. This includes Jesus of Nazareth, Theudas (Acts 5:36), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Benjamin the Egyptian, Menachem, or Simeon Bar Kochba. What do all of these men have in common? They died by crucifixion and they claimed to be the King Messiah.
Jesus taught that the Kingdom of God is within you.That God Most High is Love.
That the laws that which burdened men where not of the Most High and he taught the Essenes Law as found in the sermon on the mount.
That God does not demand blood sacrifices like a vampire God.
Jesus was an Essene Messiah not a Pharisee or Saducee Messiah.
The Essenes correctly understood the corruption of the Torah made by Ezra and the returning scribes from captivity. When they made YHVH an angel (their tribal diety) into God Most High in order to establish a firm monothiesm. Scholars today call this the documentary hypothesis and confirm the teachings of Essenes by doing so.
Later his teachings were ripped out of context and he became a Messiah to a Pharisee form of Judaism. Which as Tow points out would not make any sense.
It is the tribal angel YHVH who cared about “national” interests of Israel. God Most High is the God of all nations not just Israel.
All NT Makes sense!
So you agree with SOL that Jesus was not the son of YHVH? I encourage you to agree with him…Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,15:35) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 14 2008,21:39) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 04 2008,00:07) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 03 2008,23:45) Original Post because Nick Hassan has been playing topic cover-up on yet another thread.
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What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill?(1) Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1).
(2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa 43:5-6, Isa 27:12-13 & 11:12).
(3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. (Isa 2:4, Isa 11:6, Micah 4:3)
(4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. (Isa 11:9, Isa 40:5, Jer 31:31-34, Zec 14:9, Zep 3:9).
(5) Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon (Is 11:1, Jer 23:5, Eze 34:23-24, 2 Sam 7:12-14, 1 Chr 17:11)
(6) Will not lead people to disobey Torah (Deu 13:1-4). All though this is not messianic specifically, it is in the sense that the real King Messiah will NOT be like the ones spoken of in this passage. If someone matches this passage, you can be certain they are not king Messiah.
Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these? Not yet. Much less all six. This includes Jesus of Nazareth, Theudas (Acts 5:36), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Benjamin the Egyptian, Menachem, or Simeon Bar Kochba. What do all of these men have in common? They died by crucifixion and they claimed to be the King Messiah.
Jesus taught that the Kingdom of God is within you.That God Most High is Love.
That the laws that which burdened men where not of the Most High and he taught the Essenes Law as found in the sermon on the mount.
That God does not demand blood sacrifices like a vampire God.
Jesus was an Essene Messiah not a Pharisee or Saducee Messiah.
The Essenes correctly understood the corruption of the Torah made by Ezra and the returning scribes from captivity. When they made YHVH an angel (their tribal diety) into God Most High in order to establish a firm monothiesm. Scholars today call this the documentary hypothesis and confirm the teachings of Essenes by doing so.
Later his teachings were ripped out of context and he became a Messiah to a Pharisee form of Judaism. Which as Tow points out would not make any sense.
It is the tribal angel YHVH who cared about “national” interests of Israel. God Most High is the God of all nations not just Israel.
All NT Makes sense!
So you agree with SOL that Jesus was not the son of YHVH? I encourage you to agree with him…
Jesus nailed YHVH laws to the cross and put all the principalities to shame. In colossians 2 it is specifically talking about the ones who burdened Israel with bad laws.Does anyone really think Jesus did that to his Father, the God of Light and Love?
Only good gifts come from the father, not bad things including bad laws.
Tow, you can think the nazarenes were a cult. You don't have to believe anything they said.
But, I would like to know if you agree with me that nazarene essenes were the first followers of Jesus. Purely, based on evidence.
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