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Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,08:41) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 14 2008,15:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,08:18) But if he didnt come once then Christ is a fraud and our faith is in vain. Unless you believe Christ did all the miracles and healings and rose from the dead and yet is not the Messiah.
But this is exactly the concern and exactly what Tow is trying to say……that Jesus didn't come as Messiah at all.He didn't fulfill what the Messiah should be? It is true that there are things said of the Messiah in the OT that Jesus did not fulfill and Tow has listed those things many times. Also, I have read in the OT how we are to tell if a prophet is of God and speaking for God – it said that the prophesies they speak will come true. Well, for instance, Jesus said that signs would follow those that believe…….those signs do not follow those that believe, that I am aware of. He also said that this generation (speaking of the one he was addressing) wouldn't pass away, and it did.
This is why I am struggling.
Don't forget N3, a generation in the GT is defined as “the period of time it takes for one of the prophecies to actually come true”.
What? I've never heard this before. Can you elaborate just a little?What does GT stand for?
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,08:42) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 14 2008,15:40) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 15 2008,08:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,08:18) But if he didnt come once then Christ is a fraud and our faith is in vain. Unless you believe Christ did all the miracles and healings and rose from the dead and yet is not the Messiah.
But this is exactly the concern and exactly what Tow is trying to say……that Jesus didn't come as Messiah at all.He didn't fulfill what the Messiah should be? It is true that there are things said of the Messiah in the OT that Jesus did not fulfill and Tow has listed those things many times. Also, I have read in the OT how we are to tell if a prophet is of God and speaking for God – it said that the prophesies they speak will come true. Well, for instance, Jesus said that signs would follow those that believe…….those signs do not follow those that believe, that I am aware of. He also said that this generation (speaking of the one he was addressing) wouldn't pass away, and it did.
This is why I am struggling.
I keep trying to tell you Mandy that Jesus was not the messiah for the Pharisee's tradition of Judaism. But, I don't know if you have seen my posts.He was a Messiah from the essene tradition of Judaism.
Google the heck out of this subject.
Hey SOl, do you have access to the Essene Torah?
We have the dead sea scrolls. which contain torah. (the one we all know) and it contains their commentary on it. Their commentary is what I am discussing.They have texts they claim are the true Law of God. I do not own copies of them, but you can purchase them or research online.
Jesus teaching is very simular to the essenes. It's not really even really much of a debate as to Christian origins.
Then they have alot of apocrypha, such as the book of enoch.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 14 2008,15:47) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,08:42) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 14 2008,15:40) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 15 2008,08:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,08:18) But if he didnt come once then Christ is a fraud and our faith is in vain. Unless you believe Christ did all the miracles and healings and rose from the dead and yet is not the Messiah.
But this is exactly the concern and exactly what Tow is trying to say……that Jesus didn't come as Messiah at all.He didn't fulfill what the Messiah should be? It is true that there are things said of the Messiah in the OT that Jesus did not fulfill and Tow has listed those things many times. Also, I have read in the OT how we are to tell if a prophet is of God and speaking for God – it said that the prophesies they speak will come true. Well, for instance, Jesus said that signs would follow those that believe…….those signs do not follow those that believe, that I am aware of. He also said that this generation (speaking of the one he was addressing) wouldn't pass away, and it did.
This is why I am struggling.
I keep trying to tell you Mandy that Jesus was not the messiah for the Pharisee's tradition of Judaism. But, I don't know if you have seen my posts.He was a Messiah from the essene tradition of Judaism.
Google the heck out of this subject.
Hey SOl, do you have access to the Essene Torah?
We have the dead sea scrolls. which contain torah. (the one we all know) and it contains their commentary on it. Their commentary is what I am discussing.So you are basing your beliefs on the commentaries of others? Dangerous but its your choice.
Quote They have texts they claim are the true Law of God. I do not own copies of them, but you can purchase them or research online. So you are basing all of these assertions on things you have no real proof of? This reminds of of someone believing every word from a preacher's mouth without checking it out. We've seen where that leads, right?
Quote Jesus teaching is very simular to the essenes. It's not really even really much of a debate as to Christian origins. Then they have alot of apocrypha, such as the book of enoch.
SOL, you would be wise to actually get your hands on the source documents because right now you are taking the commentaries of others without validating their words.SOL (sorry but everytime I see those letters put together I have to laugh a little – stand for something other than Son of Light, too)
Um, can you tell me which church you are affiliated with, if any?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 14 2008,15:46) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,08:41) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 14 2008,15:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,08:18) But if he didnt come once then Christ is a fraud and our faith is in vain. Unless you believe Christ did all the miracles and healings and rose from the dead and yet is not the Messiah.
But this is exactly the concern and exactly what Tow is trying to say……that Jesus didn't come as Messiah at all.He didn't fulfill what the Messiah should be? It is true that there are things said of the Messiah in the OT that Jesus did not fulfill and Tow has listed those things many times. Also, I have read in the OT how we are to tell if a prophet is of God and speaking for God – it said that the prophesies they speak will come true. Well, for instance, Jesus said that signs would follow those that believe…….those signs do not follow those that believe, that I am aware of. He also said that this generation (speaking of the one he was addressing) wouldn't pass away, and it did.
This is why I am struggling.
Don't forget N3, a generation in the GT is defined as “the period of time it takes for one of the prophecies to actually come true”.
What? I've never heard this before. Can you elaborate just a little?Its the standard excuse as to why “this generation” did not mean the people he was speaking to. Plain apologetics.
Quote What does GT stand for?
Greek text, or the Christian “new testament”. I don't accept that there is an “old covenant” (“testament”) and “new covenant” presently because the conditions that were to accompany the new covenant in Jer 31 have not come to pass.=======================================
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
=======================================When the new covenant comes, all will know G-d. Do you see that today? Not even close.
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,08:41) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 14 2008,15:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,08:18) But if he didnt come once then Christ is a fraud and our faith is in vain. Unless you believe Christ did all the miracles and healings and rose from the dead and yet is not the Messiah.
But this is exactly the concern and exactly what Tow is trying to say……that Jesus didn't come as Messiah at all.He didn't fulfill what the Messiah should be? It is true that there are things said of the Messiah in the OT that Jesus did not fulfill and Tow has listed those things many times. Also, I have read in the OT how we are to tell if a prophet is of God and speaking for God – it said that the prophesies they speak will come true. Well, for instance, Jesus said that signs would follow those that believe…….those signs do not follow those that believe, that I am aware of. He also said that this generation (speaking of the one he was addressing) wouldn't pass away, and it did.
This is why I am struggling.
Don't forget N3, a generation in the GT is defined as “the period of time it takes for one of the prophecies to actually come true”.
Hi tow,
Perhaps you are confused by this specific statement directed to the generation which killed the Messiah?Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.Of course some of those with Christ yet live though they have died.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 15 2008,08:53) SOL (sorry but everytime I see those letters put together I have to laugh a little – stand for something other than Son of Light, too) Um, can you tell me which church you are affiliated with, if any?
No church.Just the teachings of Jesus and modern scholarship.
Ignore what any of us say and just search for yourself.
I just wanted to give you some help based off of my personal search.
If Tow really knows his stuff, then he would know that James and the Jerusalem church where Nazarene Essenes.
I don't have all the answers, I just know where to point.
Search the evidence. Google the heck out of Nazarenes and Essenes.
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,08:52) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 14 2008,15:47) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,08:42) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 14 2008,15:40) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 15 2008,08:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,08:18) But if he didnt come once then Christ is a fraud and our faith is in vain. Unless you believe Christ did all the miracles and healings and rose from the dead and yet is not the Messiah.
But this is exactly the concern and exactly what Tow is trying to say……that Jesus didn't come as Messiah at all.He didn't fulfill what the Messiah should be? It is true that there are things said of the Messiah in the OT that Jesus did not fulfill and Tow has listed those things many times. Also, I have read in the OT how we are to tell if a prophet is of God and speaking for God – it said that the prophesies they speak will come true. Well, for instance, Jesus said that signs would follow those that believe…….those signs do not follow those that believe, that I am aware of. He also said that this generation (speaking of the one he was addressing) wouldn't pass away, and it did.
This is why I am struggling.
I keep trying to tell you Mandy that Jesus was not the messiah for the Pharisee's tradition of Judaism. But, I don't know if you have seen my posts.He was a Messiah from the essene tradition of Judaism.
Google the heck out of this subject.
Hey SOl, do you have access to the Essene Torah?
We have the dead sea scrolls. which contain torah. (the one we all know) and it contains their commentary on it. Their commentary is what I am discussing.So you are basing your beliefs on the commentaries of others? Dangerous but its your choice.
Quote They have texts they claim are the true Law of God. I do not own copies of them, but you can purchase them or research online. So you are basing all of these assertions on things you have no real proof of? This reminds of of someone believing every word from a preacher's mouth without checking it out. We've seen where that leads, right?
Quote Jesus teaching is very simular to the essenes. It's not really even really much of a debate as to Christian origins. Then they have alot of apocrypha, such as the book of enoch.
SOL, you would be wise to actually get your hands on the source documents because right now you are taking the commentaries of others without validating their words.
Tow,You yourself have admitted that the torah is jewish commentary. Or at least thats my impression of your view. You don't believe the torah to be “God Breathed”. If I am wrong set me straight on this.
You are a deist who subscribes to Pharisee/Saducee commentary.
I am a deist who subscribes to Essene commentary as revealed through Yahshua.
I mean no offense but that seems somewhat hypocritcal to me.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 14 2008,16:02) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 15 2008,08:53) SOL (sorry but everytime I see those letters put together I have to laugh a little – stand for something other than Son of Light, too) Um, can you tell me which church you are affiliated with, if any?
No church.Just the teachings of Jesus and modern scholarship.
Ignore what any of us say and just search for yourself.
I just wanted to give you some help based off of my personal search.
If Tow really knows his stuff, then he would know that James and the Jerusalem church where Nazarene Essenes.
I don't have all the answers, I just know where to point.
Search the evidence. Google the heck out of Nazarenes and Essenes.
Do you think they were all vegans?Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,08:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,15:18) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 14 2008,16:59) What I am trying to say is that the OT does not imply the Christ will come twice. Am I wrong?
not3But it dosnt imply his coming will only be once either.
Trinitarians, the true masters of the argument from silence!
Quote Where is the scripture that says “all the prophesys” concerning him would be fulfilled at his coming?”.
Well one or two of them would be nice to get the ball rolling in the right direction
TowIts no more silence than what you say.
You take isolated text and assume that they all will be fulfilled when he first comes with no proof that this is so.
Where is the scripture that says when he comes all the prophesys will be fullfilled?
Its simply not there and to say other wise is inferrence!
Much of the dead sea scrolls is not yet public.
Makes you wonder what powers that be that are trying to push this under the carpet. Both orthodox Jews and Christians don't want to deal with this information.
It is NOT that they have a pure Torah, rather pure teachings.
They believed the torah corrupted.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:15) Much of the dead sea scrolls is not yet public. Makes you wonder what powers that be that are trying to push this under the carpet. Both orthodox Jews and Christians don't want to deal with this information.
It is NOT that they have a pure Torah, rather pure teachings.
They believed the torah corrupted.
SOLIf they havnt published them then how can you know that they support your view?
How can we deal with information we dont have?
Here are some quick links to get you started, mandy.
I am not familiar with the content of all these links. Don't consider them true nor my views. Just consider it information whether good or bad.
I just want to help add to your pool of knowledge to help your search.
http://jesusdynasty.com/blog/2006/08/31/jesus-and-the-essenes/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource….es.html
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/xenochian.html
http://www.all-creatures.org/hr/hrajesus.htm
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 14 2008,16:05) Tow, You yourself have admitted that the torah is jewish commentary. Or at least thats my impression of your view. You don't believe the torah to be “God Breathed”. If I am wrong set me straight on this.
I don't think any text put on a page by men are “G-d breathed”. But it IS much better than relying on the commentaries of scripture which is supposed to be different than the ones the Pharisees read.
The oral Torah, or Talmud now, is the actual commentaries on the written Torah.
Quote You are a deist who subscribes to Pharisee/Saducee commentary. Mostly, true.
Quote I am a deist who subscribes to Essene commentary as revealed through Yahshua. But do you have the source materials or are you flying by the seat of your pants, basing your beliefs off of websites?
Quote I mean no offense but that seems somewhat hypocritcal to me.
Perhaps, but at least I have the best representation of the source material available today. It appears you are basing your beliefs on the beliefs put forward by others.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,09:16) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:15) Much of the dead sea scrolls is not yet public. Makes you wonder what powers that be that are trying to push this under the carpet. Both orthodox Jews and Christians don't want to deal with this information.
It is NOT that they have a pure Torah, rather pure teachings.
They believed the torah corrupted.
SOLIf they havnt published them then how can you know that they support your view?
How can we deal with information we dont have?
because the info WE DO HAVE.It is pretty clear archeologicaly and textually that Jesus was of an Essene background.
I would think Tow would even acknowledge this.
He does not have to believe the essenes were anything more than a cult, but I think he would agree that Jesus comes from that sect.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,16:09) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,08:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,15:18) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 14 2008,16:59) What I am trying to say is that the OT does not imply the Christ will come twice. Am I wrong?
not3But it dosnt imply his coming will only be once either.
Trinitarians, the true masters of the argument from silence!
Quote Where is the scripture that says “all the prophesys” concerning him would be fulfilled at his coming?”.
Well one or two of them would be nice to get the ball rolling in the right direction
TowIts no more silence than what you say.
You take isolated text and assume that they all will be fulfilled when he first comes with no proof that this is so.
Where is the scripture that says when he comes all the prophesys will be fullfilled?
Its simply not there and to say other wise is inferrence!
OK then, exactly which Messianic prophecies DID he fulfill?Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 14 2008,16:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,09:16) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:15) Much of the dead sea scrolls is not yet public. Makes you wonder what powers that be that are trying to push this under the carpet. Both orthodox Jews and Christians don't want to deal with this information.
It is NOT that they have a pure Torah, rather pure teachings.
They believed the torah corrupted.
SOLIf they havnt published them then how can you know that they support your view?
How can we deal with information we dont have?
because the info WE DO HAVE.It is pretty clear archeologicaly and textually that Jesus was of an Essene background.
I would think Tow would even acknowledge this.
He does not have to believe the essenes were anything more than a cult, but I think he would agree that Jesus comes from that sect.
Which Jesus are you talking about SOL? If you talk about the Jesus of the various gnostic texts you come much closer to finding support. If you speak of the Jesus found in the GT, then he did not match them. Do you think Jesus was vegan? Was he aesthetic?Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,09:16) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:15) Much of the dead sea scrolls is not yet public. Makes you wonder what powers that be that are trying to push this under the carpet. Both orthodox Jews and Christians don't want to deal with this information.
It is NOT that they have a pure Torah, rather pure teachings.
They believed the torah corrupted.
SOLIf they havnt published them then how can you know that they support your view?
How can we deal with information we dont have?
because the info WE DO HAVE.It is pretty clear archeologicaly and textually that Jesus was of an Essene background.
I would think Tow would even acknowledge this.
He does not have to believe the essenes were anything more than a cult, but I think he would agree that Jesus comes from that sect.
HUH?Does the info we have say the dead sea scrolls that has not been released, has the information to support your belief concerning the “Commentarys” that are supposedly there?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,16:24) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,09:16) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:15) Much of the dead sea scrolls is not yet public. Makes you wonder what powers that be that are trying to push this under the carpet. Both orthodox Jews and Christians don't want to deal with this information.
It is NOT that they have a pure Torah, rather pure teachings.
They believed the torah corrupted.
SOLIf they havnt published them then how can you know that they support your view?
How can we deal with information we dont have?
because the info WE DO HAVE.It is pretty clear archeologicaly and textually that Jesus was of an Essene background.
I would think Tow would even acknowledge this.
He does not have to believe the essenes were anything more than a cult, but I think he would agree that Jesus comes from that sect.
HUH?Does the info we have say the dead sea scrolls that has not been released, has the information to support your belief concerning the “Commentarys” that are supposedly there?
Only if you believe the various websites. We know that websites are all true.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,09:24) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,09:16) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,09:15) Much of the dead sea scrolls is not yet public. Makes you wonder what powers that be that are trying to push this under the carpet. Both orthodox Jews and Christians don't want to deal with this information.
It is NOT that they have a pure Torah, rather pure teachings.
They believed the torah corrupted.
SOLIf they havnt published them then how can you know that they support your view?
How can we deal with information we dont have?
because the info WE DO HAVE.It is pretty clear archeologicaly and textually that Jesus was of an Essene background.
I would think Tow would even acknowledge this.
He does not have to believe the essenes were anything more than a cult, but I think he would agree that Jesus comes from that sect.
HUH?Does the info we have say the dead sea scrolls that has not been released, has the information to support your belief concerning the “Commentarys” that are supposedly there?
We do have released information.I am saying that beyond that are unrealeased texts.
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