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What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill?
(1) Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1).
(2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa 43:5-6, Isa 27:12-13 & 11:12).
(3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. (Isa 2:4, Isa 11:6, Micah 4:3)
(4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. (Isa 11:9, Isa 40:5, Jer 31:31-34, Zec 14:9, Zep 3:9).
(5) Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon (Is 11:1, Jer 23:5, Eze 34:23-24, 2 Sam 7:12-14, 1 Chr 17:11)
(6) Will not lead people to disobey Torah (Deu 13:1-4).
Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these? Not yet. Much less all six. This includes Jesus of Nazareth, Theudas (Acts 5:36), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Benjamin the Egyptian, Menachem, or Simeon Bar Kochba. What do all of these men have in common? They died by crucifixion and they claimed to be the King Messiah.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.Where is the sanctuary of God NOW? The sanctuary of God is not a building! It is WHEREVER HE IS! Heaven is wherever God is!
Does God live in a building and when HE leaves the building HE ceases to be GOD?
The Temple of God was rebuilt after three Days and Nights.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Hi Tow,
Indeed Christ the suffering servant will return as king and those who pierced him will now recognise him and mourn for him. He will rule from Jerusalem.Hi Kenrch,
Indeed we make a temple together in which God is worshiped [Eph 2.20] each of us in the body of Christ being living stones[1Peter]. We will rule with him and the nations will come to worship in Jerusalem or there will be no rain. God's kingdom will be on earth as it is in heaven.Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 29 2007,12:53) What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill? (1) Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1).
(2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa 43:5-6, Isa 27:12-13 & 11:12).
(3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. (Isa 2:4, Isa 11:6, Micah 4:3)
(4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. (Isa 11:9, Isa 40:5, Jer 31:31-34, Zec 14:9, Zep 3:9).
(5) Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon (Is 11:1, Jer 23:5, Eze 34:23-24, 2 Sam 7:12-14, 1 Chr 17:11)
(6) Will not lead people to disobey Torah (Deu 13:1-4).
Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these? Not yet. Much less all six. This includes Jesus of Nazareth, Theudas (Acts 5:36), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Benjamin the Egyptian, Menachem, or Simeon Bar Kochba. What do all of these men have in common? They died by crucifixion and they claimed to be the King Messiah.
Quote (5) Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon Quote Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these? Not yet. Ummmm? Clearly, we're losing our grip on reality here.
Obviously, many would have to be descendants of King David. (Even though there's apparently no way to prove this anymore, what with the records gone and all.)You state quite wrongly that no one has “fulfilled” even a single one of these prophecies, including #5, being a descendant of King David.
It makes me wonder where YOUR Christ would come from, if there aren't any descendants of King David left.
Your entire post, of course, focuses on the triumphant prophecies of Christ's return, and you have somehow left out the prophecies that don't match YOUR expectations. Hmmmm. There are of course many prophecies you've left out. Such as the one which very very clearly speaks of “messiah the leader” appearing 69 weeks (of years) after the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. That brings us to the year of Jesus baptism, when he was annointed with holy spirit, thus becoming the “annointed one,” the Messiah.
I have some questions. He is to “usher in an era of world peace.” I'm wondering who this world will consist of? Same people we have today? Because then the world would be the same as we have today. I'm wondering when people everywhere will be given the chance to hear the good news of this peace and choose if they are for the kingdom or against.
Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 29 2007,11:56) Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.Where is the sanctuary of God NOW? The sanctuary of God is not a building! It is WHEREVER HE IS! Heaven is wherever God is!
Then maybe YOU should toss out Ezekiel 40+ since it describes many different aspects of the sanctuary that will be built.
Quote Does God live in a building and when HE leaves the building HE ceases to be GOD? G-d has never lived in a building. The sanctuary of G-d is for the people of G-d.
Quote The Temple of God was rebuilt after three Days and Nights. Really? So the sanctuary described in Eze 40-44 is Jesus? Woah, I thought Jesus was a god-man, not a physical temple grounds. You do worship an idol if that is the case.
Quote 1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Again, Paul is not allowed to override Tanakh. If he does, he goes against G-d. But that is no surprise as his writings are full of his apostacy.McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia states: “There can be little doubt that the registers of the Jewish tribes and families perished at the destruction of Jerusalem [in 70 C.E.], and not before.”
I still am waiting (it's been months) for Tow to provide any evidence that HIS Messiah could even fulfill the prophecy about being in David's line. It's an impossible scenerio. He has withdrawn and said that this isn't important because the Messiah would be doing miracles and it would be obviously him. OK….Why the prophecy in the first place then?
Him coming from David's line is important. Any future messiah's could not even make that claim, or prove it at least.
I'm sorry if YOUR expectations do not match up with what the hebrew scriptures actually say in full.
That was his coming as a humble, suffering Redeemer. He did not come as an all-conquering King to break the oppressive yoke of the Romans, as most Jews and even his followers seemed to have expected. (Isaiah, chapter 53; Zechariah 9:9; Acts 1:6-8)
His FUTURE COMING, however, was foretold to be with power and great authority.—Daniel 2:44; 7:13, 14.Even the most skeptical opponent of Jesus’ Messiahship cannot deny Jesus’ claim to be a son of David. Why? There are two reasons. One, that claim was widely repeated in Jerusalem for decades before the city was destroyed in 70 C.E. (Compare Matthew 21:9; Acts 4:27; 5:27, 28.) If the claim was false, any of Jesus’ opponents—and he had many—could have proved Jesus a fraud simply by checking his lineage in the genealogies in the public archives.
(Jewish historian Josephus, in presenting his own lineage, makes it clear that such records were available before 70 C.E. These records were apparently destroyed with the city of Jerusalem, MAKING ALL SUBSEQUENT CLAIMS TO MESSIAHSHIP UNPROVABLE.)But history has no record of anyone challenging Jesus’ descent from King David. Evidently, the claim was unassailable. No doubt Matthew and Luke copied the salient names for their accounts directly from the public records.
Second, sources outside the Bible confirm the general acceptance of Jesus’ lineage. For instance, the Talmud records a fourth-century rabbi as making a scurrilous attack on Mary, the mother of Jesus, for ‘playing the harlot with carpenters’; but the same passage concedes that “she was the descendant of princes and rulers.” An earlier example is the second-century historian Hegesippus. He related that when the Roman Caesar Domitian wanted to exterminate any descendants of David, some enemies of the early Christians denounced the grandsons of Jude, Jesus’ half brother, “as being of the family of David.” If Jude was a known descendant of David, was not Jesus as well? Undeniably!—Galatians 1:19; Jude 1.
Quote Really? So the sanctuary described in Eze 40-44 is Jesus? Woah, I thought Jesus was a god-man, not a physical temple grounds. You do worship an idol if that is the case. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But that's alright Tow you are better off not knowing YET!
Quote (6) Will not lead people to disobey Torah (Deu 13:1-4). I've never looked at this scripture as something that the Messiah would fulfill thus indicating he was the Messiah.
DEUTERONOMY 13:1-4
““In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your midst and does give you a sign or a portent, and the sign or the portent does come true of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us walk after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us serve them,’ you must not listen to the words of that prophet or to the dreamer of that dream, because Jehovah YOUR God is testing YOU to know whether YOU are loving Jehovah YOUR God with all YOUR heart and all YOUR soul. After Jehovah YOUR God YOU should walk, and him YOU should fear, and his commandments YOU should keep, and to his voice YOU should listen, and him YOU should serve, and to him YOU should cling.”In case a prophet….spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us walk after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us serve them, you must not listen to the words of that prophet.
Jesus rightfully always directed worship to his Father. While some Bible translations take the word proskyneo and translate it worship whereever anyone is honouring Jesus in the slightest, the word “proskyneo” has a number of meanings, and just because there are bad translators, does not mean Jesus was directing worship to himself, or for that matter, other gods. He prayed to his Father. He called his Father God. And he directed peoples attention to his Father and his Father's kingdom.
But regardless, this isn't really an indicator of Messiah. You're using it as an indicator against Jesus, apparently. But I have no idea why.
When tempted by the devil, Jesus quoted scripture, saying: “For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Yes, most Bible's have “LORD” there, but Jesus wouldn't misquote scripture, and God's name was in the scripture he was quoting.)
Anyway, the point is obvious.Quote (david @ Dec. 29 2007,14:02) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 29 2007,12:53) What will the King Messiah accomplish and fulfill? (1) Build the 3rd Temple (Eze 37:26-28, Mic 4:1).
(2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa 43:5-6, Isa 27:12-13 & 11:12).
(3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. (Isa 2:4, Isa 11:6, Micah 4:3)
(4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. (Isa 11:9, Isa 40:5, Jer 31:31-34, Zec 14:9, Zep 3:9).
(5) Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon (Is 11:1, Jer 23:5, Eze 34:23-24, 2 Sam 7:12-14, 1 Chr 17:11)
(6) Will not lead people to disobey Torah (Deu 13:1-4).
Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these? Not yet. Much less all six. This includes Jesus of Nazareth, Theudas (Acts 5:36), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Benjamin the Egyptian, Menachem, or Simeon Bar Kochba. What do all of these men have in common? They died by crucifixion and they claimed to be the King Messiah.
Quote (5) Be a descendant of King David and his son Solomon Quote Has anyone fulfilled even a single one of these? Not yet. Ummmm? Clearly, we're losing our grip on reality here.
Obviously, many would have to be descendants of King David. (Even though there's apparently no way to prove this anymore, what with the records gone and all.)You state quite wrongly that no one has “fulfilled” even a single one of these prophecies, including #5, being a descendant of King David.
OK, you are right about that one. Too bad Jesus didn't fulfill that one however, so he didn't fulfill a single part of the above list.
But I think lineage will be a moot point should anyone fulfill the others. He would not have to prove his lineage because when all the remaining prophecies are fulfilled there will be little doubt.
Quote It makes me wonder where YOUR Christ would come from, if there aren't any descendants of King David left. Sorry, but you don't seem to read Tanakh much.
Jer 33:17 “For thus says the LORD: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel
According to the promise of G-d, there will always be a descendant of David to assume the throne.
Quote Your entire post, of course, focuses on the triumphant prophecies of Christ's return, and you have somehow left out the prophecies that don't match YOUR expectations. Hmmmm. Please show me a second coming in Tanakh. The second coming was made up because Jesus did not fulfill a single messianic prophecy. You are waiting for Jesus to return but he won't because he is dead. He will be resurrected when King Messiah comes, but his actual deeds will show where he stands in the world to come.
Plus, there are very few other messianic prophecies. I have handled two lists of supposed prophecies by kenreich and son of light (formerly morningstar) and no one refuted what I wrote. Therefore, there are no other prophecies to list.
Quote There are of course many prophecies you've left out. Such as the one which very very clearly speaks of “messiah the leader” appearing 69 weeks (of years) after the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. That brings us to the year of Jesus baptism, when he was annointed with holy spirit, thus becoming the “annointed one,” the Messiah. Sorry, but that does not fit Jesus. Without getting into the math and the fact that there are two anointed ones in Daniel 9, what do you do with the following?
Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
Notice that there is no gap of time between when the anointed one is cut off and the city and sanctuary is destroyed. Yet there is a gap of time of 35-40 years (5 or more 'weeks') from Jesus' death and the destruction of Jerusalem. So Jesus fails in fulfilling this as well.
Quote I have some questions. He is to “usher in an era of world peace.” I'm wondering who this world will consist of? Same people we have today? Because then the world would be the same as we have today. I'm wondering when people everywhere will be given the chance to hear the good news of this peace and choose if they are for the kingdom or against.
Here is a short answer:Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'
Quote (david @ Dec. 29 2007,14:23) Quote (6) Will not lead people to disobey Torah (Deu 13:1-4). I've never looked at this scripture as something that the Messiah would fulfill thus indicating he was the Messiah.
DEUTERONOMY 13:1-4
““In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your midst and does give you a sign or a portent, and the sign or the portent does come true of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us walk after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us serve them,’ you must not listen to the words of that prophet or to the dreamer of that dream, because Jehovah YOUR God is testing YOU to know whether YOU are loving Jehovah YOUR God with all YOUR heart and all YOUR soul. After Jehovah YOUR God YOU should walk, and him YOU should fear, and his commandments YOU should keep, and to his voice YOU should listen, and him YOU should serve, and to him YOU should cling.”In case a prophet….spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us walk after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us serve them, you must not listen to the words of that prophet.
Jesus rightfully always directed worship to his Father. While some Bible translations take the word proskyneo and translate it worship whereever anyone is honouring Jesus in the slightest, the word “proskyneo” has a number of meanings, and just because there are bad translators, does not mean Jesus was directing worship to himself, or for that matter, other gods. He prayed to his Father. He called his Father God. And he directed peoples attention to his Father and his Father's kingdom.
But regardless, this isn't really an indicator of Messiah. You're using it as an indicator against Jesus, apparently. But I have no idea why.
When tempted by the devil, Jesus quoted scripture, saying: “For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Yes, most Bible's have “LORD” there, but Jesus wouldn't misquote scripture, and God's name was in the scripture he was quoting.)
Anyway, the point is obvious.
You forgot this verse, it is very important:Deu 13:4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him.
If someone comes along and teaches that Torah has been abolished, then he will NOT be a prophet of G-d OR the King Messiah. So while it is not a messianic prophecy per se, it does show that people should not follow those who teach against Torah. Jesus didn't do this himself in the synoptics, but Paul did and that is part of Christianity. Paul was supposedly inspired by Jesus, thus by extension, Jesus is teaching men that Torah has been abolished when there are several passages in Tanakh that refute this.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 29 2007,12:23) Hi Tow,
Indeed Christ the suffering servant will return as king and those who pierced him will now recognise him and mourn for him. He will rule from Jerusalem.
Sorry, no second coming in Tanakh. The second coming is a fairy tale that attempts to make up for Jesus failing to fulfill a single messianic prophecy.Quote But I think lineage will be a moot point should anyone fulfill the others. He would not have to prove his lineage because when all the remaining prophecies are fulfilled there will be little doubt. –Towshab.
WHY THE PROPHECY THEN? You say he won't have to fulfill certain prophecies, such as this one, because it will be obvious to YOU apparently, that he's the Messiah.
This is backwards thinking.
What will make it apparent to some, is that he will be fulfilling the prophecies. THAT'S THE POINT OF THE PROPHECIES. Why would Jehovah create a prophecy that in your mind, can't be proven? It doesn't make sense.
'Oh, well, it will be so obvious, we won't even need that prophecy.' That's just wrong.
As I said in a previous post:
“McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia states: “There can be little doubt that the registers of the Jewish tribes and families perished at the destruction of Jerusalem [in 70 C.E.], and not before.”
I still am waiting (it's been months) for Tow to provide any evidence that HIS Messiah could even fulfill the prophecy about being in David's line. It's an impossible scenerio. He has withdrawn and said that this isn't important because the Messiah would be doing miracles and it would be obviously him. OK….Why the prophecy in the first place then?
Him coming from David's line is important. Any future messiah's could not even make that claim, or prove it at least.”
**
SORRY, QUOTED GOT MESSED.tow:
“Sorry, but you don't seem to read Tanakh much.
Jer 33:17 “For thus says the LORD: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel”“For this is what Jehovah has said, ‘There will not be cut off in David’s case a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel. And in the case of the priests, the Levites, there will not be cut off a man from before me to offer up whole burnt offering and to make smoke with a grain offering and to render sacrifice always.’”—Jer. 33:17, 18.
Does it matter, then, that since the destruction of the restored Jerusalem in 70 C.E. there has been no material temple of Jehovah on earth and there is also no identifiable member of the tribe of Levi and of the house of Moses’ brother Aaron to serve at such a temple? Not at all.
For Jehovah now has as his High Priest and underpriests those who were foreshadowed by the ancient Levite priests in Israel, namely, Jesus Christ and his chosen followers who are anointed to the spiritual priesthood with God’s spirit. The heavens where God thrones is the Most Holy of the spiritual temple in which this priesthood serves.—Heb. 9:24; 1 Pet. 2:9, 10.Quote Please show me a second coming in Tanakh.
What we have are two sets of scriptures. One which clearly deals with his triumphant kingly arrival in power. This, you understand. And another set of scriptures that deal with him being God's humble servant, etc. It's those scriptures which you have trouble with.How do you reconcile the two?
Quote Therefore, there are no other prophecies to list. So, you're saying that the only prophecies about the Messiah are the 6 you listed? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?
Quote Here is a short answer: Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'
But my question was: “who this world will consist of? Same people we have today? Because then the world would be the same as we have today. I'm wondering when people everywhere will be given the chance to hear the good news of this peace and choose if they are for the kingdom or against.”[/quote]Notice that there is no gap of time between when the anointed one is cut off and the city and sanctuary is destroyed.
Yes, it clearly says: “There is no gap of time.” Wait, no it doesn't. This is a timetable of the “messiah the leader.”
Quote Deu 13:4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. If someone comes along and teaches that Torah has been abolished, then he will NOT be a prophet of G-d OR the King Messiah. So while it is not a messianic prophecy per se,
Wait, do you mean that in this list of 6 Messiahnic prophecies, #6 isn't a “prophecy per se” and #5 you don't even really care about because the other prophecies will be so obvious. We're running out of real prophecies here.
***
Didn't Jesus say: “I have not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill the law.” (I'm pretty sure he did.)Yet you say: “If someone comes along and teaches that Torah has been abolished.”
Quote Jesus didn't do this himself in the synoptics, but Paul did
OK, but I thought your argument was against Jesus, not Paul, who you consider an apostate. If Jesus “didn't do this” as you say, why are you trying to make it appear he did? And, again, why even have this here at all, as a pre-requisite for the Messiah when it is like you're trying to disprove a negative or something.Quote Paul was supposedly inspired by Jesus, thus by extension, Jesus is teaching men that Torah has been abolished when there are several passages in Tanakh that refute this.
Aren't you the one that keeps saying Paul never even met Jesus? Now, Paul is “supposedly” inspired by Jesus. You seem to pick either side when it suits you.JESUS:
“Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill; for truly I say to YOU that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place.”YOU:
“If someone comes along and teaches that Torah has been abolished, then he will NOT be a prophet”I think I've just very easily proven that you have no right to use this as a scripture against Jesus, or for that matter a scritpure that is supposed to be used to identify the Messiah. Really, this scripture is neither of those things.
david
Quote (david @ Dec. 29 2007,14:54) Quote But I think lineage will be a moot point should anyone fulfill the others. He would not have to prove his lineage because when all the remaining prophecies are fulfilled there will be little doubt. –Towshab.
WHY THE PROPHECY THEN? You say he won't have to fulfill certain prophecies, such as this one, because it will be obvious to YOU apparently, that he's the Messiah.
This is backwards thinking.
It is more of a promise that a prophecy. One can view it as both. It basically means that all REAL and anointed kings to sit on the throne of David will be of the lineage of David through Solomon. Do you think that once all of the others are fulfilled some will ask “show me your lineage”? There will be no doubt at this point.
Quote What will make it apparent to some, is that he will be fulfilling the prophecies. THAT'S THE POINT OF THE PROPHECIES. Why would Jehovah create a prophecy that in your mind, can't be proven? It doesn't make sense. It will be proven when all of the others take place. Through them, all will know that the King Messiah is of the lineage of David.
Quote 'Oh, well, it will be so obvious, we won't even need that prophecy.' That's just wrong. As I said in a previous post:
Quote McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia states: “There can be little doubt that the registers of the Jewish tribes and families perished at the destruction of Jerusalem [in 70 C.E.], and not before.” I still am waiting (it's been months) for Tow to provide any evidence that HIS Messiah could even fulfill the prophecy about being in David's line. It's an impossible scenerio. He has withdrawn and said that this isn't important because the Messiah would be doing miracles and it would be obviously him. OK….Why the prophecy in the first place then?
This is weak reasoning. Should one have to break out his family tree to prove he is King Messiah if all the other prophecies are fulfilled? G-d promised it, there is no were written that it will have to be proven is there?
Quote Him coming from David's line is important. Any future messiah's could not even make that claim, or prove it at least. Why will they have to prove it? Rather, by fulfilling the other prophecies, King Messiah will obviously prove his lineage.
Quote Quote Sorry, but you don't seem to read Tanakh much.
Jer 33:17 “For thus says the LORD: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel“For this is what Jehovah has said, ‘There will not be cut off in David’s case a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel. And in the case of the priests, the Levites, there will not be cut off a man from before me to offer up whole burnt offering and to make smoke with a grain offering and to render sacrifice always.’”—Jer. 33:17, 18.
Does it matter, then, that since the destruction of the restored Jerusalem in 70 C.E. there has been no material temple of Jehovah on earth and there is also no identifiable member of the tribe of Levi and of the house of Moses’ brother Aaron to serve at such a temple? Not at all.
Again, this is a promise, not something that must be proven for doubters.
Quote For Jehovah now has as his High Priest and underpriests those who were foreshadowed by the ancient Levite priests in Israel, namely, Jesus Christ and his chosen followers who are anointed to the spiritual priesthood with God’s spirit. The heavens where God thrones is the Most Holy of the spiritual temple in which this priesthood serves.—Heb. 9:24; 1 Pet. 2:9, 10. No, sorry, cannot override a promise from G-d with anything outside of Tanakh, certainly not the pagan GT.
Quote Quote Please show me a second coming in Tanakh.
What we have are two sets of scriptures. One which clearly deals with his triumphant kingly arrival in power. This, you understand. And another set of scriptures that deal with him being God's humble servant, etc. It's those scriptures which you have trouble with.What we clearly have is fiction (GT) vs. non-fiction (Tanakh).
Quote How do you reconcile the two? By tossing the GT in the dumpster.
Quote Quote Therefore, there are no other prophecies to list. So, you're saying that the only prophecies about the Messiah are the 6 you listed? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?
No, but they are the strongest indicators of the messianic age and the most obvious ones NOT fulfilled by Jesus.
Quote Quote Here is a short answer: Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'
But my question was: “who this world will consist of? Same people we have today? Because then the world would be the same as we have today. I'm wondering when people everywhere will be given the chance to hear the good news of this peace and choose if they are for the kingdom or against.”Who knows? But they will hear of G-d through G-d's people, the Jews.
Quote Quote Notice that there is no gap of time between when the anointed one is cut off and the city and sanctuary is destroyed.
Yes, it clearly says: “There is no gap of time.” Wait, no it doesn't. This is a timetable of the “messiah the leader.”
Sorry, since the prophecy has clearly broken itself down in time frames, to disclude the 35-40 years would be erroneous. Christians MUST deal with this large gap. They cannot however, so this is not Jesus.Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 30 2007,07:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 29 2007,12:23) Hi Tow,
Indeed Christ the suffering servant will return as king and those who pierced him will now recognise him and mourn for him. He will rule from Jerusalem.
Sorry, no second coming in Tanakh. The second coming is a fairy tale that attempts to make up for Jesus failing to fulfill a single messianic prophecy.
Hi Tow,
The grain had to be sown to bring a harvest.
The kingdom had to be initiated.Quote (david @ Dec. 29 2007,15:04) Quote Deu 13:4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. If someone comes along and teaches that Torah has been abolished, then he will NOT be a prophet of G-d OR the King Messiah. So while it is not a messianic prophecy per se,
Wait, do you mean that in this list of 6 Messiahnic prophecies, #6 isn't a “prophecy per se” and #5 you don't even really care about because the other prophecies will be so obvious. We're running out of real prophecies here.
No, this is prophecy, just not necesarily messianic. But if one comes along and matches Deut 13 (Jesus did), then it is obvious that that person could not be King Messiah. Therefor it CAN be applied.
Quote ***
Didn't Jesus say: “I have not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill the law.” (I'm pretty sure he did.)Yet you say: “If someone comes along and teaches that Torah has been abolished.”
Who inspired Paul? Who spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus? Who pretty much abolished Torah?
Christianity teaches that Torah has passed away. Christianity is the faith of Christ. Therefore, Deu 13:4 applies to Jesus and Christianity.
Quote Quote Jesus didn't do this himself in the synoptics, but Paul did
OK, but I thought your argument was against Jesus, not Paul, who you consider an apostate. If Jesus “didn't do this” as you say, why are you trying to make it appear he did? And, again, why even have this here at all, as a pre-requisite for the Messiah when it is like you're trying to disprove a negative or something.Are you willing to toss out Paul's writings then? If not then, Jesus supposedly inspired Paul to write what he did. Thus, it was Jesus through Paul who abolished Torah.
Quote Quote Paul was supposedly inspired by Jesus, thus by extension, Jesus is teaching men that Torah has been abolished when there are several passages in Tanakh that refute this.
Aren't you the one that keeps saying Paul never even met Jesus? Now, Paul is “supposedly” inspired by Jesus. You seem to pick either side when it suits you.No, I am merely showing you the fallacy of the GT. Either accept Paul or not. I don't care whether Paul met Jesus or not, Christians follow the GT, and say they are followers of Christ.
Quote JESUS:
“Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill; for truly I say to YOU that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place.”YOU:
“If someone comes along and teaches that Torah has been abolished, then he will NOT be a prophet”Amen!
Quote I think I've just very easily proven that you have no right to use this as a scripture against Jesus, or for that matter a scritpure that is supposed to be used to identify the Messiah. Really, this scripture is neither of those things. david
How so? Is the GT about Jesus? Yes. Was Paul writing about Jesus? Yes. Then like it or not, Jesus through Paul was a false prophet. If you do not like this, rip everything after the synoptics out of your GT and then you might have something decent.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 29 2007,15:29) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 30 2007,07:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 29 2007,12:23) Hi Tow,
Indeed Christ the suffering servant will return as king and those who pierced him will now recognise him and mourn for him. He will rule from Jerusalem.
Sorry, no second coming in Tanakh. The second coming is a fairy tale that attempts to make up for Jesus failing to fulfill a single messianic prophecy.
Hi Tow,
The grain had to be sown to bring a harvest.
The kingdom had to be initiated.
Is this the best you can come up with to answer my statement?Quote It is more of a promise that a prophecy. One can view it as both. It basically means that all REAL and anointed kings to sit on the throne of David will be of the lineage of David through Solomon. Do you think that once all of the others are fulfilled some will ask “show me your lineage”? There will be no doubt at this point. So, he would be born in the line of David, but this being born business, is one of the last prophecies for people to consider?
I would think it's the first.Being born in a tribe, where you're born, when you're born, these are the first.
You have things exactly backwards. Being born comes first.Quote It will be proven when all of the others take place. Through them, all will know that the King Messiah is of the lineage of David.
This thinking is beyond me. The Jews kept records of lineage. The prophecy said that he would come through David's lineage. But it will be “proven” that he is of that lineage, not because of the records, but because it is obvious by the other prophecies?Quote This is weak reasoning. Should one have to break out his family tree to prove he is King Messiah if all the other prophecies are fulfilled? G-d promised it, there is no were written that it will have to be proven is there?
If it is so obvious, why all the prophecies? Why not just one? Why not two?Quote Why will they have to prove it? Rather, by fulfilling the other prophecies, King Messiah will obviously prove his lineage. I have a question: What is the point of the prophecies? Were they in part to indicate who the Messiah was, so that he would be recognized? What would you say the point of these prophecies were? I believe they were in part to establish who the Messiah was.
Quote Again, this is a promise, not something that must be proven for doubters. I think my idea of “proof” is much greater than yours. I'm not just going to accept someone if they don't have the credentials. The credentials being that they'd be born in the right place (bethlehem ephratheh) and appear as the Messiah at the right time (date of Jesus baptism and annointing) and be actually in the line of David as was repeated in the Bible COUNTLESS TIMES, AND for a reason.
I mean, over and over and over again, more than any other idea, the fact that the messiah would come through that line, is mentioned. Yet, you say that we are just to believe and not be a doubter and that this prophecy repeated over and over doesn't mean too much.
Quote What we clearly have is fiction (GT) vs. non-fiction (Tanakh).
No, I'm referrring to prophecies from the Hebrew, such as Is 53, which you know, or Zech 9:9.Quote No, but they are the strongest indicators of the messianic age and the most obvious ones NOT fulfilled by Jesus. BINGO!!
So, what you claimed was a list of messiah credentials was really a list of reasons why you don't think Jesus is the Messiah. I thought so. Some of them weren't even proof of messiaship “per se,” as you said.
Quote Who knows? But they will hear of G-d through G-d's people, the Jews.
hhmm… So, the Jews (fleshly Jews) are going to go to people in their huts and villages and tell people about God. I don't see that happening. Do you really believe it will?
Your “who knows” response makes me weary.Quote Sorry, since the prophecy has clearly broken itself down in time frames, to disclude the 35-40 years would be erroneous. Christians MUST deal with this large gap. Oh, check this out. “Who knows.” We must not be “doubters.” All the other things Jesus fulfilled. Why even question that one.
Of course, I don't think that way. I'm just trying to show you how your response feels to me.
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