The rapture

Participant

Hi.

A family member was saying today that he believes in the rapture. That before the tribulation, Gods people will be taken away, will meet Jesus in the air, and that after that, all who are left behind will live in the evilest time ever known.

However I believe from scripture that Gods people will have to go through the tribulation.

As with the other thread please address any replies 'to all' as I dont know how often I can reply here. I just found it interesting.

January 17, 2011 at 10:34 am#233465

Tim Kraft

Participant

To all: I find neither the word “rapture” nor the doctrine of the rapture to be Biblical truth from Jesus. It is a man made doctrine that is defininitely opposite to every parable Jesus told of the seed of God gowing up in the earth.

Also the tribulation that Jesus referred to was about the temple buildings. When Jesus said not on stone will be left on another that will not be torn down hey were sitting across from the temple and his disciples ask him when will these things be? When will the temple buildings be torn down. Then Jesus talked in detail of things and wars and tribulation that woud happen before the temple was destroyed. (in 70ad).
Earlier Jesus told his followers that in the world(the religious world order) they would have tribulation(for the words sake). Also persecution and affliction arise (because of the word) from the religious hierarchy. Remember, deception and lies come, immediately, because of the word to choke it out, kill it, steal it, or destroy it in any way possible. Because the new word of Jesus or truth of God completedly destroyed their temple, doctrines, rituals, and beliefs. Anyone able to accept the new way of Jesus had to repent(turn from the way of God they were serving) and believe the Gospel of Jesus. Mankind is now the temple of God/Jesus/Spirit and perfection is by faith and not by performance!!

My first bible studies(1980) were of the end times doctrines. I know them well. They are lying deceptions IMO, that keep people from believing that the entire Gospel is here and effective NOW! Bless you, TK

January 17, 2011 at 11:30 am#233469

Ed J

Participant

Hi Shimmer,

Looks like false doctrines have come home to roost. (Prob. 22:6)
Here is one you and me (Tim Kraft) see “eye to eye” on! Unlike
believing God's laws (according to Tim) are done away with?

Isaiah 5:18-24 Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity,
and sin as it were with a cart rope: That say, Let him make speed, and
hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One
of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it! Woe unto them that call
evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that
put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own
eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine,
and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Which justify the wicked for reward, and
take away the righteousness (2Tm.3:5-7) of the righteous from him! Therefore as the
fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be
as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away
“The Law” of the LORD of Hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Habakkuk 2:9-16 Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house,
that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!
Thou hast consulted shame to thy house by cutting off many people, and hast sinned
against thy soul. For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber
shall answer it. Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood (Ezekiel 35:5), and stablisheth
a city by iniquity! Behold, is it not of the LORD of hosts that the people shall labor in the very fire,
and the people shall weary themselves for very vanity? For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge
of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. Woe unto him that giveth his neighbor drink, that
puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! Thou
art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the LORD's
right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing (Revelation 3:14-22) shall be on thy glory.

Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

January 17, 2011 at 1:08 pm#233472

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 17 2011,19:43)

Hi.

However I believe from scripture that Gods people will have to go through the tribulation.

As with the other thread please address any replies 'to all' as I dont know how often I can reply here. I just found it interesting.

Greetings Shimmer…..There will be a great number who do not survive the tribulation,but the good news is that after the tribulation,Gods government will be inplace and a great harvest and period of reducation will take place and Gods people will be the sponsors of this program….justice will be swift and sure,there will be no more war….if you are fortunate to be blessed to survive… rebellion will not be tolerated in any form…this period will last for a thousand years and then once again Satan will allowed for a short time to once again temp and after that his demise and the white throne judgement will take place and all whoever lived will have an opportunity to know God and his love and mercy and live under his law….sad to say there will be those who will choose not to….they will experience the second death and cease to exist….How could it be any other way?The rapture is a concept that was derived by men who misinterpreted a piece of scripture and through the years embelished it to a point where people believed it to be fact…it is neither scriptual or true….

January 17, 2011 at 1:32 pm#233473

Ed J

Participant

Quote (theodorej @ Jan. 17 2011,23:08)

Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 17 2011,19:43)

Hi.

However I believe from scripture that Gods people will have to go through the tribulation.

As with the other thread please address any replies 'to all' as I dont know how often I can reply here. I just found it interesting.

Hi Theodore J,

The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
A seven year 'tribulation period' is another misrepresentation!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 17, 2011 at 1:56 pm#233475

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2011,23:32)

Quote (theodorej @ Jan. 17 2011,23:08)

Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 17 2011,19:43)

Hi.

However I believe from scripture that Gods people will have to go through the tribulation.

As with the other thread please address any replies 'to all' as I dont know how often I can reply here. I just found it interesting.

Hi Theodore J,

The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
A seven year 'tribulation period' is another misrepresentation!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Greetings Ed…. I agree ….I see no indication of seven years either….if any thing, this period of judgement is over perhaps three and a half years culminating in the great day of wrath the Day of the lord…..

January 17, 2011 at 2:14 pm#233476

Participant

The TWO greatest deceptions of our time, spread by the so called “ministers of God”, are;

ONE; the seven years of tribulation brought on by Antichrist.

TWO; the RAPTURE before the tribulation.

There are NO scriptures supporting those claims.

Georg

January 17, 2011 at 2:24 pm#233477

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 18 2011,00:14)

The TWO greatest deceptions of our time, spread by the so called “ministers of God”, are;

ONE; the seven years of tribulation brought on by Antichrist.

TWO; the RAPTURE before the tribulation.

There are NO scriptures supporting those claims.

Georg

Greetings Georg…..How about the deception that the Law was done away with….How about carnal human beings residing in heaven floating around on clouds…..right you are there are many deceptions,some of which I might hold to be true myself,however,as my prayer for wisdom is answered I will be able to discern the truth…

January 17, 2011 at 2:39 pm#233481

Participant

Quote (theodorej @ Jan. 18 2011,00:24)

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 18 2011,00:14)

The TWO greatest deceptions of our time, spread by the so called “ministers of God”, are;

ONE; the seven years of tribulation brought on by Antichrist.

TWO; the RAPTURE before the tribulation.

There are NO scriptures supporting those claims.

Georg

The “Letter” of the law was done away,

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to “”bring us unto Christ””, that we might be “”justified by faith””.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Show me a scripture that says, any one that dies goes to heaven.

Georg

January 17, 2011 at 3:00 pm#233483

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 18 2011,00:39)

Quote (theodorej @ Jan. 18 2011,00:24)

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 18 2011,00:14)

The TWO greatest deceptions of our time, spread by the so called “ministers of God”, are;

ONE; the seven years of tribulation brought on by Antichrist.

TWO; the RAPTURE before the tribulation.

There are NO scriptures supporting those claims.

Georg

The “Letter” of the law was done away,

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to “”bring us unto Christ””, that we might be “”justified by faith””.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Show me a scripture that says, any one that dies goes to heaven.

Georg

Greetings Georg …..There is no scripture that declares any carnality in heaven…..I was pointing out that the concept is one of the many deceptions…..

January 17, 2011 at 3:10 pm#233488

Participant

Quote (theodorej @ Jan. 18 2011,01:00)

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 18 2011,00:39)

Quote (theodorej @ Jan. 18 2011,00:24)

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 18 2011,00:14)

The TWO greatest deceptions of our time, spread by the so called “ministers of God”, are;

ONE; the seven years of tribulation brought on by Antichrist.

TWO; the RAPTURE before the tribulation.

There are NO scriptures supporting those claims.

Georg

The “Letter” of the law was done away,

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to “”bring us unto Christ””, that we might be “”justified by faith””.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Show me a scripture that says, any one that dies goes to heaven.

Georg

Greetings Georg …..There is no scripture that declares any carnality in heaven…..I was pointing out that the concept is one of the many deceptions…..

In that you are correct.

Georg

January 19, 2011 at 12:06 am#233669

http://www.marianland.com/antichrist/antichrist001.html

Participant

Hi all.

Good points but I point out I'm amillenial in belief, as are most Catholic and Orthodox and Anglican etc believers. To me it makes more sense. They, like me, believe we are up to the part where Satan is let loose, only to be destroyed at the return of Christ which will happen after three and a half years of great evil. The worst the world has ever known.

This rapture belief though….is there a reason behind this false teaching ? It got me thinking…..I believe there is a danger in it.

To have ones hopes set on Jesus coming and rescueing you before you have to go through this awfull time.

What will happen when these peoples hopes are quashed ? When the tribulation comes upon them and Jesus doesnt come ?

How many will fall away due to lost hope ?

Example I had amazing things happen to me, healings and things incredible, through prayer. So, I had to go to the dentist to have a wisdom tooth pulled out, and I, like most hate dentists. Its a phobia. One of my worstest fears! So, I prayed and asked God to make it quick and easy………it didnt happen. The opposite happened. The dentist couldnt get the tooth out. It took over an hour of him pulling and pushing, In the end he was getting angrier and angrier, and he wanted to get home too it was the end of the day. My faith was slightly weakened for a small while afterwards. Funny when I look back……….. but still ? Such a small thing, thats what i'm meaning. Torture will be one of the tools used during the tribulation according to early christian writings.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem
In his satanic rage and fury, Antichrist will persecute these brave and devout Christians during three years and a half, and torture them with such an extremity of barbarity, with all the old and newly invented instruments of pain, as to exceed all past persecutors of the Church combined.

Lactantius
And he who shall not worship him and receive his sign will die with refined tortures. Thus he will destroy nearly two parts, the third will flee into desolate solitudes. But he, frantic and raging with implacable anger, will lead an army and besiege the mountains to which the righteous shall have fled. And when they shall see themselves besieged, they will implore the help of God with a loud voices and God shall hear them, and shall send to them a Deliverer …”

St. Hippolytus
“And the churches, too will wail with a mighty lamentation, because neither oblation nor incense is attended to, nor a service acceptable to God; but the sanctuaries of the churches will become like a garden-watcher's hut, and the Holy Body and Blood of Christ will not be shown in those days. The public service of God shall be extinguished, psalmody shall cease, the reading of Scripture shall not be heard; but for men there shall be darkness and lamentation on lamentation, and woe on woe. At that time silver and gold shall be cast out in the streets, and none shall gather them; but all things shall be held an offence. For all shall be eager to escape and to hide and they shall not be able anywhere to find shelter from the woes of the Enemy; but as they carry his mark about them, they shall be readily recognised and declared to be his.

There shall be fear outside, and trembling inside both by night and by day. In the streets and in the houses there the dead shall lie; in the streets and in the houses there shall hunger and thirst be; in the streets there shall be tumults, and in the houses lamentations. And beauty of countenance shall be withered, for their forms shall be like those of the dead; and the beauty of women shall fade, and the desire of all men shall vanish. But in spite of all this, not even then will the merciful and benignant God leave the race of men without some comfort; He will shorten even those days to the period of three years and a half, and He will curtail those times on account of the remnant of those who hide in the mountains and caves, that the phalanx of all those saints fail not utterly. But these days shall run their course rapidly; and the kingdom of the Deceiver and Antichrist shall be promptly removed. And then, finally, in the twinkling of an eye shall the fashion of this world pass away, and the power of men shall be brought to naught, and all visible things shall be destroyed.”

January 19, 2011 at 2:01 am#233703

terraricca

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 19 2011,17:06)

Hi all.

This rapture belief though….is there a reason behind this false teaching ? It got me thinking…..I believe there is a danger in it.

To have ones hopes set on Jesus coming and rescueing you before you have to go through this awfull time.

What will happen when these peoples hopes are quashed ? When the tribulation comes upon them and Jesus doesnt come ?

How many will fall away due to lost hope ?

http://www.marianland.com/antichrist/antichrist001.html

shimmer
you believe Satan as been released from the abbys ?

wen was that?? any scriptures??

Pierre

January 19, 2011 at 4:25 am#233744

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/amillennialism.htm

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2011,14:01)

shimmer
you believe Satan as been released from the abbys ?

wen was that?? any scriptures??

Pierre

Hi Terrarica. Probably not yet but soon will be released.

If your interested in Amillenialism, a description of it can be found here

The only possible danger in believing in a literal thousand year millenium, is if the antichrist claims to be Christ and claims the millenium has come. Which many believe will happen.

The Day of the Lord though is the return of Christ. (2nd Peter 3).

January 19, 2011 at 4:56 am#233746

terraricca

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 19 2011,21:25)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2011,14:01)

shimmer
you believe Satan as been released from the abbys ?

wen was that?? any scriptures??

Pierre

Hi Terrarica. Probably not yet but soon will be released.

If your interested in Amillenialism, a description of it can be found here

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/amillennialism.htm

The only possible danger in believing in a literal thousand year millenium, is if the antichrist claims to be Christ and claims the millenium has come. Which many believe will happen.

The Day of the Lord though is the return of Christ. (2nd Peter 3).

shimmer

I am a disciple of Christ and his father ,

scriptures says that before Satan get released he must first been chained and put in the abyss ,
and i do not think that has yet happen,?

unless you know scriptures of other wise??

Pierre

January 19, 2011 at 5:53 am#233755

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2011,12:01)

you believe Satan as been released from the abbys ?

wen was that?? any scriptures??

Pierre

You ask, when was Satan released, I ask, when was he locked up?

Georg

January 19, 2011 at 6:00 am#233756

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=9%7C24%7C168

Participant

Revelation Twenty – The Binding of Satan by William E. Cox

'And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and cast him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more: until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time' (Rev 20:1-3).

A close reading of these verses makes it obvious that they contain one central thought – a binding of Satan. It is also obvious that the thought is conveyed through symbolism. Even those who insist on a literal one thousand year binding of Satan hasten to say that most of the other symbols are to be interpreted spiritually! They admit that the key, the abyss, the chain, the sealing, etc., are obviously figures of speech; they also agree that Satan is not literally a dragon and at the same time a serpent, but that John is describing him poetically. While these folk insist on taking part of this chapter hyperliterally, they can see the incongruities involved in binding Satan, a spiritual being, with physical chains and keys. This is why they admit that parts of this section of Revelation are to receive a figurative interpretation.

The question arises here, as in all parts of the Revelation, as to just who is to be the judge in deciding what parts of a given verse are to be interpreted literally and which parts symbolically. Who gives the millennialist the right to decide that one word is literal while the very next word is symbolic, then to ostracize another Christian for daring to suggest that both words might be symbolism? To say that Satan is to be bound after Christ comes the second time, then released again, contradicts many clear passages of Scripture. Assuming this to be so, and assuming that one Scripture passage does not contradict another, let us search out clear teachings of the New Testament concerning a binding of Satan. It is to be noted that John nowhere fixes the time for this event.

Only one event coincides with John's picturesque language here in Revelation 20:1-3 – this event is the defeat of Satan brought about by Christ's first advent and crucifixion. For those who object that Satan still has much power today, let it be noted that John does not picture him as obliterated, but merely imprisoned. Many a prisoner has been known to operate from inside barred windows through henchmen on the outside. And many a dog, though bound, has bitten people who came within the confines of his chain. Satan is bound, but with a long chain. Our Lord certainly overcame him and pronounced sentence upon him (John 12:31); however, the sentence will not be completely executed until the second coming (2 Thess 2:7,8). Satan was eternally doomed when, on the cross, Christ bruised the head of the serpent in fulfillment of Genesis 3:15.

Floyd E. Hamilton (The Basis of Millennial Faith) makes some helpful observations on the subject of Satan's being bound.
'I suppose that no one would insist that Satan is to be bound with a literal chain of iron or some other metal, for Satan is a spirit and material chains could not hold him captive for a moment. Binding always means the limitation of power, in some way. When men bound themselves with an oath not to do something, they agreed to limit their own power and rights to the extent of their oaths. A man and wife are bound by their marriage vows, but that does not mean that they are bound in respect to other relationships in life. A slave is bound to his master, but he lives his life as a human being with freedom to do countless other things which do not interfere with his relationship as a slave to his master. So Satan's being bound does not mean that he is powerless to tempt people, and we know that he does. It is merely limitation of Satan's power in one particular respect especially, that of ability to deceive the nations. During the interadventual period the gospel is to be proclaimed to all nations, and Satan is powerless to prevent it. The way of salvation has been opened to all nations and there is nothing that Satan can do to block that way' (pp. 131-32).

'In Hebrews 2:14, the writer tells us, that through death He might bring to nought him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. Christ brought the devil to nought, that is, He limited the devil's power in such a way that all his efforts amounted to nothing, and his power was definitely frustrated. All these things show that in the New Testament Christ claimed that in a very real sense he had bound Satan, and limited his power. In Revelation 20, one particular aspect of that binding is before us, namely, the limiting of Satan's power to deceive the nations as he did before the coming of Christ. From that time forward during the whole of the interadventual dispensation Satan is defeated in fact. He can still go about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, but in this particular respect he is a caged lion' (ibid., pp. 132-33).
When Jesus sent the Twelve on a preaching mission (Luke 9:1) he gave them power and authority over all demons. He also sent seventy disciples on a similar mission, and they returned rejoicing in the fact that even the, demons are subject unto us in thy name (Luke 10:17). Then it was that Jesus said to them that he beheld Satan fall from heaven. We take this as a reference to his defeat of Satan at the cross (see Rev 12:7-12). Our Lord went on to say to the seventy disciples, Behold, I have given you authority … over all the power of the enemy (Luke 10:19).

Matthew records a time during our Lord's earthly ministry (Matt 12:22-29) when the enemies of Christ accused him of casting out demons in the power of Satan himself. Our Lord took this opportunity to point out that his mighty works proved (1) that he had established his kingdom (vs. 28), and (2) that he, being stronger than Satan, had come into Satan's house (this world) and bound him (vs. 29).

Following the Temptation, our Lord issued a command to Satan which was immediately obeyed (Matt 4:10,11). Our Lord referred to his crucifixion as the casting out of Satan (John 12:31-33). Paul also refers to the cross as follows: Having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it (Col 2:15). John informs us (1 John 3:8): To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Paul shows the defeat of Satan's power when he says (Eph 4:8): When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive . The writer of Hebrews (2:14) says that through his death our Lord brought to nought the devil. This shows conclusively that our Lord bound Satan (i.e., limited his power) at the first advent.

We concur with Hamilton that John, in Revelation 20:1-3, refers to only one facet of that limitation, that is, Satan's power to deceive the nations by keeping them from hearing the gospel. Before Christ came, only the Jew (except for the rare instances when Gentile proselytes were circumcised and made partakers with Israel) was offered the plan of salvation. Thus Satan was able to deceive the nations (Gentiles) by keeping them from hearing the gospel and being saved. After Calvary, however, Satan's power to do this was bound. Our Lord then said: All authority bath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations (Matt 28:18,19).

Having said that Satan was bound, John went on to say that he would be released at the end of the millennium for a little time (Rev 20:3). Now this also is in keeping with the clear teachings of the New Testament. This loosing, I believe, corresponds with the appearing of the man of sin referred to by the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. Paul's statement, The mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is
one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way, corresponds perfectly with what we have said about the limiting of Satan's present power. This restrainer is taken to be the Holy Spirit. This also points up the fact that Satan is bound, having only such power as God grants him. Whenever God is ready, he will remove the restrainer; that is, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way (2 Thess 2:7). Then, says Paul, the lawless one (man of sin) will be given full power to deceive them that perish (vs 1O). Paul goes on to say that the Lord Jesus Christ will slay the man of sin (Satan) at His second coming. Compare this teaching and order of events with John the Revelator's teaching in Revelation 20. John says that after the millennium Satan, who has been chained during that period, will be loosed for a little time (vs. 3) and that he will then go about to deceive the nations. John says, in symbolic language (vs. 9), that fire from heaven will put down Satan and his followers. A comparison of 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2 with Revelation 20 cannot help but reveal that Paul and John both speak of the same events. And both passages agree entirely with many other clear passages of the Bible dealing with our Lord's second coming and events preceding it.

January 19, 2011 at 6:28 am#233757

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2011,16:56)

scriptures says that before Satan get released he must first been chained and put in the abyss ,
and i do not think that has yet happen,?
unless you know scriptures of other wise??

Verses which show Satan is chained and 'put in the abyss' ?

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

1 John 3:8
To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Just a couple for you.
The chaining isnt nessesarily literal, much like most of revelations isnt literal. I was CHAINED to the smoking habit for example. There wasnt an actual chain there though was there?

January 19, 2011 at 6:31 am#233759