The Rapture

Participant

Hello again, 942767

Mat. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.”

“Those days”, are just ahead, it will be the third and final tribulation for the Jews, God’s people. We are not only living in “The days of these kings”, Dan. 2:44, but we are also living in the days that Zechariah wrote about.

Zech. 12: 2 “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.”
Zech. 12:3 “And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.”

Before long we will be witnessing this,

Zech. 14:2 “For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the woman ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.”

This then, would be the final tribulation for the Jews, but it would also be God’s wrath on the whole world.

v. 9 “And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.”
Is. 13:11 “ And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible”.

The only once that will be safe from his wrath, are those that seek him now.

Zeph. 2:3 “Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness; it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’s anger.”
Ps. 91:3 “Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.”
v. 5 “Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;”
v. 7 “A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.”

And then, after the tribulation of those days, we don’t know how long those days will last.

Mat. 24:30 “ And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”.

Amen, God bless

September 3, 2007 at 11:41 pm#65303

Participant

942767 Hi!

Were are these saints now?
They are spirit beings, they are in their spirit world, the air, with Christ.

The Roman Empire was not divided, it was ruled by two Roman Emperors, East and West; the two legs of iron , Dan.2:33.
The toes, partly iron, partly clay, are all the nation, United Nation; they are strong in part, but they all have their own interest, they are corrupt, not to mention their different religious believes, that is the clay, that is why iron and clay don't hold together.

We are trained in God's righteousness, to become a spirit being may be our desire, but it is not our choice. Only spirit beings will rule with Christ in His millenium, by the time we see the sign of his coming, Math. 24:30, his selection of the saints, his Church, will have been made.

God did not create Adam and Eve, physical human beings, to make spirit beings out of them later. Receiving the gift of God, eternal life, does not mean you have to be a spirit being.
We are by no means spirit beings now.

When you read, Mat. 24:21-22, Jer,30:7, and Daniel 12:1, you will notice how much alike they are, and all are speaking of the Jewish People.

The gospel will not be preached to the Jews, not until Christ begins to reign, then he will take away their blindness.

I already explained my understanding concerning the temple. And yes, I know about the movement to build a new temple.

I was raised a Catholic, and yes I know the teachings of the Eucharist, that is the abomination that made Christ sacrifice desolate.

I was working outside today, and to tired to look up and quote scripture that I referred too, thinking you know them anyway.

Blessings

September 4, 2007 at 8:41 pm#65327

kenrch

Participant

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Some will be kept from the “hour of temptation”. When in Egypt the Hebrews put lambs blood on their door post and the angel of death “Passover” them.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

The tribulation last five months because if were longer then the “elect” would not survive.

I “believe” the saints (elect) go through the tribulation just as the Hebrews went through the Egyptians tribulation but of course the saints will be covered with the LAMB'S blood.

Either that OR the elect are raptured before the tribulation.

However:

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

But what about:

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

But then:

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Keeps them from the hour of temptation but where? On earth or are they raptured?

That is my question? Can anyone help?

September 5, 2007 at 12:22 am#65340

Participant

Hi IAm4Truth:

You say:

Quote

Before long we will be witnessing this,

This then, would be the final tribulation for the Jews, but it would also be God’s wrath on the whole world.

My understanding of the above is that this not the “Great Tribulation”. Reference is made to the above events also in Ezekiel, but following these events there will be a period of peace during which the Temple will be rebuilt and the animal sacrifices will be offered. Three and 1/2 years into this period of peace the Anti-Christ will stop these sacrifices, and then 1290 days from this time he will set himself up in the temple showing himself to be God. This is the abomination that makes desolate. 45 days from this event the church will be caught up to be with the Lord, and then the wrath of God is poured out on those who are living who will have worshipped the Anti-Christ. The wrath of God is the seven last plagues. If there is not rapture, where do you say God's people will be?

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Ezekiel 38
38:1
And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
38:2
Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
38:3
And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
38:4
And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
38:5
Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
38:6
Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
38:7
Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.
38:8
After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
38:9
Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
38:10
Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
38:11
And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
38:12
To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
38:13
Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
38:14
Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
38:15
And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
38:16
And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
38:17
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

Verse 38:5 mentions three nations by name, Persia (Iran), Lybia, and Ethiopia and there others with them who will come against Israel (both the Nation of Israel and the Israel of God (born again Christians). The president of Iran has already made statements about wanting to wipe Israel off of the map, and it looks as if he will have a nuclear bomb, and so, I believe that we are on the brink of what is being said here, and I believe that this is the same series of events spoken of in Zechariah 12-14.

But God will intervene against those coming against Jews and Christians at some point.

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Ezekiel 38:19
For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
38:20
So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
38:21
And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
38:22
And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones *, fire, and brimstone.
38:23
Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

And,

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Ezekiel 39
39:1
Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
39:2
And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
39:3
And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to
fall out of thy right hand.
39:4
Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
39:5
Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
39:6
And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
39:7
So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
39:8
Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
39:9
And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves *, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
39:10
So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
39:11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
39:12
And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
39:13
Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
39:14
And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
39:15
And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
39:16
And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
39:17
And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
39:18
Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
39:19
And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
39:20
Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
39:21
And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
39:22
So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
39:23
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
39:24
According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
39:25
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity * of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
39:26
After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
39:27
When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies ' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
39:28
Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
39:29
Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

When the period of peace ensues after God intervenes, it will be a time that the gospel can be preached more readally to all nations and then the end shall come.

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Matt. 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

You say:

Quote

Of all of the above that you mention, I am not sure. You may be right.

And you say:

Quote

My understanding is that when God created Adam and Eve they were living persons but they were in innocence before their fall. They were as new born babies when they are born into this world. Their personality or spirit had not been formed. Your spirit is formed through what you obey. What you obey or do determines who you are. If you say that you are a Christian and do not obey the Word of God then you are not a Christian (for example). Have you ever listened to yourself when wou make reference to your body. You will say “my body” is tired. So there is someone who lives in the body.

I believe that we are a spirit being. Jesus states the following:

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John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot * see the kingdom of God.
3:4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can * he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born ?
3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of t
he Spirit is spirit.

He says “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”.

He also states:

Quote

6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

My understanding is that when our body dies, our spirit goes to God and our soul sleeps until the resurrection. Your spirit is what you did in the body (your works), but the spirit is not cognizant with out the soul. In the rapture we will receive our spiritual body. I, therefore, can't agree with your statement about the spirit of the saints.

Any way this is a good discussion, maybe we will learn something, and if we don't agree, we can pray and ask God for understanding.

God Bless

September 5, 2007 at 11:38 am#65415

Participant

942767, an interesting discussion indeed

Let me start with your last quote, 6:63.
Jesus was saying that the words he was speaking, were the bread of life, the body would not profit from them, our mind, our spirit, would.
Man says we have a soul, God does not. When God breathed into the nostrils of Adam, he became a living soul.
The breath is what gave man life, not a soul. Anything that has the breath of life is a soul including all animals. And even if we had a soul, how do you explain;
Ezek. 18:20 “ The soul that sinneth, it shall die…”
Mat. 10:28 “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
If you believe you have a soul, you have to believe it can be destroyed; that is what Jesus is saying.
Paul says, the wages of sin is death, not life,
Rom. 6:23 “ For the wages of sin is death…”
Death is the opposite of life, you stop breathing, and you stop living.
Ps. 104:29 “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled, thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.”
Eccl. 3:19 “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.”
v. 20 “All go unto one place, all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.”
Eccl. 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”
Ps. 6:5 “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”
Ps. 88:10 “Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?”
v. 11 “Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?”
v. 12 “Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of
forgetfulness?”
Ps. 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”
There is nothing in these scriptures that give even a hind, that anything of you remains alive or conscious, when you’re dead. You cannot have light and dark in the same room at the same time, or hot and cold in the same cup at the same time, etc. etc.; neither can you be dead and alive at the same time. There is nothing immortal about us or in us. Nowhere in the bible will you find that, when the body dies the “soul” lives on. It all started with the lie Satan told Eve;
Gen. 3:4 “ And the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall not surely die.”
And that lie is still being told today! Paul tells us there is only one who has immortality, the Father;
1 Tim. 6:16 “ Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting, Amen.”
And hear is what Jesus said;
John 5:26 “ For as the Father has life in himself (immortality), so has he given to the son to have life in himself (immortality).”
The Father, Jehovah God, is the only one who has always been immortal. And Jesus is the only one the Father has given immortality, after his job hear on earth was finished. That also shows that Jesus did not always have immortality, and that now he can never die again. That is what immortality means, death is impossible; you cannot have immortality and choose to die; if you can die you are not immortal, that's just common sense. All through the bible you read, when some one died, “and he slept with his fathers”, death is referred to as sleep, because there is an awakening from it; while the “SECOND DEATH” is final.
In John 3:3-6, Jesus is trying to explain a spirit being to Nicodemus. A human being is born of the flesh, of a woman, we can all see other human beings. After he dies, he will experience a rebirth as a spirit being, born of the spirit. Born simply means, receiving life, the first time we receive life from our human father, the second time from our heavenly Father; a human being cannot see a spirit being, you cannot see the wind, or the air, that is what the spirit world is like, if you want to compare it to anything. That was, what Jesus was trying to explain to Nicodemus.

God bless, for now

September 8, 2007 at 9:19 pm#65606

Participant

Hi IAM4Truth:

You say:

Quote

Let me start with your last quote, 6:63.
Jesus was saying that the words he was speaking, were the bread of life, the body would not profit from them, our mind, our spirit, would.

Jesus was speaking of eating his flesh and drinking his blood:

Quote

6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

But he was not indicating that we would eat his flesh and drink his blood literally as the Catholic church misunderstands when they partake of the Eucharist. He was talking about spiritual food, the Words that He was speaking to humanity while in the flesh body.

And so he says:

Quote

6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Then you say:

Quote

Man says we have a soul, God does not. When God breathed into the nostrils of Adam, he became a living soul.
The breath is what gave man life, not a soul. Anything that has the breath of life is a soul including all animals. And even if we had a soul, how do you explain;
Ezek. 18:20 “ The soul that sinneth, it shall die…”
Mat. 10:28 “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
If you believe you have a soul, you have to believe it can be destroyed; that is what Jesus is saying.
Paul says, the wages of sin is death, not life,
Rom. 6:23 “ For the wages of sin is death…”
Death is the opposite of life, you stop breathing, and you stop living.
Ps. 104:29 “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled, thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.”
Eccl. 3:19 “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.”
v. 20 “All go unto one place, all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.”
Eccl. 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”
Ps. 6:5 “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”
Ps. 88:10 “Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?”
v. 11 “Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?”
v. 12 “Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of
forgetfulness?”
Ps. 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”
There is nothing in these scriptures that give even a hind, that anything of you remains alive or conscious, when you’re dead. You cannot have light and dark in the same room at the same time, or hot and cold in the same cup at the same time, etc. etc.; neither can you be dead and alive at the same time. There is nothing immortal about us or in us. Nowhere in the bible will you find that, when the body dies the “soul” lives on. It all started with the lie Satan told Eve;
Gen. 3:4 “ And the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall not surely die.”
And that lie is still being told today! Paul tells us there is only one who has immortality, the Father;
1 Tim. 6:16 “ Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting, Amen.”
And hear is what Jesus said;
John 5:26 “ For as the Father has life in himself (immortality), so has he given to the son to have life in himself (immortality).”
The Father, Jehovah God, is the only one who has always been immortal. And Jesus is the only one the Father has given immortality, after his job hear on earth was finished. That also shows that Jesus did not always have immortality, and that now he can never die again. That is what immortality means, death is impossible; you cannot have immortality and choose to die; if you can die you are not immortal, that's just common sense. All through the bible you read, when some one died, “and he slept with his fathers”, death is referred to as sleep, because there is an awakening from it; while the “SECOND DEATH” is final.

While it is true that an aimal is a living creature, an amimal was not made in the image of God. Man like God is a living person with a mind, a will, and emotions. But God is invisible. Man has a body which is distinct from his soul. As you say the scripture states that the soul that sins shall die, and when Adam and Eve, they did die first spiritually (they lost communion with God) and then they died physically. They received judgment from God for disobedience.

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3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

My understanding is that those in the Old Testament who are dead will not be resurrected to receive further judgment. They are dead. I agree with you that the soul is not immortal. The life of the soul is in obedience to God's commandments.

Those of the Nation of Israel who were striving to obey God's commandments are part of the body of Christ and will be resurrected when Jesus comes for the church. Their sins have been washed away by the blood of the Lord.

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Heb 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

From the time that Jesus began his ministry, the gospel is to be preached to every creature. The soul of those who have believed and have striven to obey and who have died
physically or who are alive and are striving to obey the commandments that came to humanity through our Lord is alive. The soul of those who have died in their sins will be resurrected in the second resurrection to incur their judgment according to their works. Those are alive at the coming of the Lord for the church who are dead in their sins will have worshiped the Anti-Christ and will receive their judgment in the seven last plagues.

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Joh 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you *, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

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John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never * * * die. Believest thou this?

The soul is immortal only if it is alive to God through obedience to His Word.

Finally, you say:

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In John 3:3-6, Jesus is trying to explain a spirit being to Nicodemus. A human being is born of the flesh, of a woman, we can all see other human beings. After he dies, he will experience a rebirth as a spirit being, born of the spirit. Born simply means, receiving life, the first time we receive life from our human father, the second time from our heavenly Father; a human being cannot see a spirit being, you cannot see the wind, or the air, that is what the spirit world is like, if you want to compare it to anything. That was, what Jesus was trying to explain to Nicodemus.

The following scripture states that God is a spirit:

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4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

And there is a scripture which states that God is invisible, but Jesus states the following:

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14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

And so, we do see the spirit through the life of our Lord Jesus, and we also shoud see that same spirit through the life of a born-again Christian.

God Bless

September 9, 2007 at 4:47 am#65635

Participant

942767 Hi!
I did not say, animals are made in the image of God, what I said was, that all creatures that have the
breath of life, “are souls,” nobody has a soul.
I think you are mixing up scripture when you say, Adam and Eve died spiritually.
Adam and Eve were tested, just as all mankind will be tested, to see if we are worthy to receive eternal life.
They, as all of us have failed, have sinned, and without a Savior, Jesus Christ, we would all remain
dead, after we die physically.
Yes the penalty of sin is dead, but thanks to Jesus Christ, it is not eternal death yet, because this is what Paul says in
1 Corinth. 15:22 For as in Adam all die ,even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

We are all sinners, we all deserve death, and yet, none of us die for our sins now.
We all die in Adam, not in us, Jesus died for all, that includes all that lived before Jesus was born, read what Job had to say,
Job 14:14If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Til the change comes,
verse 15 You will call and I will answer You;
listen what He says about His resurrection,
Job 33:25 His flesh shall be young like a child's, He shall return to the days of his youth.

When you believe you have a soul, that of course makes it so much harder to understand scripture,
No one but the Father has immortality,
1 Timothy 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be Honor and everlasting power. Amen

No where in your Bible will you find that anyone else has anything immortal, soul or otherwise
The resurrection is for all, during the Millennium, and it is then, when everyone will receive true teaching of the word of God, and it is then if you will not hear that Prophet, you will die the second death.
Acts 3;23 And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

In answer to your last quotes, you are taking what I said completely out of context. No human being can see a spirit being.

September 9, 2007 at 12:52 pm#65655

Participant

P s, It was late and I went to bed, I had my wife type this last reply, she's up most of the night anyway, she forgot my greetings, so here it is

GOD BLESS

September 9, 2007 at 10:17 pm#65664

Participant

Hi IAm4Truth:

You say:

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Although the scripture may not state specifically that our soul is immortal, it is our soul which is being saved. God our Father has given Jesus immortality having raised him from the dead and exalted him to His right hand as head of the church, and we who are born again Christians have likewise been raised from the dead. Water baptism sybmolizes our union with Jesus in his death, burial and resurrection. Jesus has a spiritual body and we also will receive a spirtual body when he comes for the church.

I disagree with your statement relative to hearing the prophet. The time to hear the prophet, that is Jesus our Lord is now. If you are not saved when he comes for the church, you will die the second death.

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19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

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16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. F9 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

God Bless

September 10, 2007 at 1:36 am#65676

Participant

Hi 942767

By your own admission, you acknowledge the fact, there are no scriptures showing we have a soul, the reason, we don't have a soul. If we doctor up scripture to make them what we want them to say, then every body is right.
The bible says, all die, all will be resurrected. If all doesn't mean all, how can you be sure God has forgiven you all your sins.
Paul says, Rom. 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved,
v. 14 “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
God will not condemn any one, without given him a chance to hear the TRUTH first. You claim you have the truth, many others do too, so do I, so who does have the truth? which church or denomination has the truth. You admit the bible does not teach we have a soul, yet you insist we do. The bible does not teach there are three gods, or three in one, but men insist there are. the bible does not teach we go to heaven, by a rapture or any other way, but men insist we do. How many more doctrines does men teach which the bible does not.
No my friend, if men were to be judged by what he understands now, he wouldn't stand a chance.
As ALL in Adam die now, so in Christ shall ALL be made alive again. That is what the millennium, Christ's thousand year reign, is all about. As ALL will live again, he will teach them, and if then they “will not hear that prophet”, they die again, which is the second death.
Our baptism symbolises our death to this world, and new life in Christ, but has nothing to do with a physical death, and resurrection from that death.
Any one can bring up scripture and say, see there it is, but what is important is, it has to reflect God's overall plan for mankind. God's will is, that all men should be saved, how can that happen if those that never even heard the name Jesus, are already condemned?
You're forgetting that this is Satan's world, much of what is being preached are lies.
Every one on this Forum says they are Christians, and yet, everyone has a different opinion about what is being discussed, simply put, that is confusion. God is not the author of confusion. When Jesus Christ comes here to reign, he will put away confusion, there will be no denominations to choose from, there will be no Seminar trained Theologian doing the preaching.
Is. 11:9 “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.”

That is what I believe, God bless

September 10, 2007 at 3:46 am#65707

Participant

Hi IAM4Truth:

First, let me thank you for giving me your understanding on this topic. I wish you and your family well.

You have given me your understanding and I have given you mine, and we don't agree on some of this discussion, and so I would like you to join me in prayer asking God to show us what he intended by the scriptures relative to this subject and others where we might disagree so that we can come into unity. If I am teaching any thing that is not God's Word, I want to be corrected quickly, and I am sure that you also would want the same. If God will confirm either what you are teaching or what I am teaching with the same miracles that He did in our Lord's ministry and that of the Apostles, then it will Him saying that one or the other of us is correct by virtue of those miracles. That is ultimately what matters.

One correction I want to make:

You say:

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Hi 942767

By your own admission, you acknowledge the fact, there are no scriptures showing we have a soul, the reason, we don't have a soul.

I did not quite say this. I said:

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Although the scripture may not state specifically that our soul is immortal, it is our soul which is being saved.

God Bless

September 10, 2007 at 12:29 pm#65722

Participant

Good morning 942767

You're right, scratch the first 8 words, reading it again I understand what you said.

I do believe that only the Holy Spirit can give us the understanding we seek, and

I will join you in prayer for it.

God bless

September 10, 2007 at 1:33 pm#65725

Participant

942767 Want to say something about the way you are both debating the subject of the Rapture. I so appreciate the way you are responding in Love and without an accusing way. Not all are able to do so. Their Human Nature just gets in the way. I compliment you both.

My Husband does not know that I am doing this. let Him be surprised, Ha.

Peace and Love Mrs.:D :cool:

March 8, 2012 at 8:33 am#283656

Participant

For Marlin

March 8, 2012 at 8:50 am#283659

Participant

Hi Marlin,

Habakkuk 2:9-10 Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high,
that he may be delivered from the power of evil! Thou hast consulted shame to thy house
by cutting off many people, and hast sinned against thy soul.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

March 10, 2012 at 2:16 am#283914

Participant

Marlin?

March 10, 2012 at 7:37 am#283968

Marlin1

Participant

Go ahead Ed

March 10, 2012 at 7:39 am#283969

Participant

Hi Marlin,

First tell me what you think about Habakkuk 2:9-10?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

March 10, 2012 at 8:04 am#283971

Marlin1

Participant

In a nutshell, it means that if you gain by doing evil, then evil will come down on you and your house.

March 10, 2012 at 8:17 am#283972