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Glancing through the many topics, I have come across questions concerning the rapture, and rather then replying to the individual, I chose to post my own topic on the subject.
It is obvious that the idea of a rapture is very appealing; after all, who would not want to go to heaven? Infect, I believe this kind of preaching has more people coming to churches, you know, just in case.
The question is; does the bible really support this idea?
There are basically three scriptures that most ministers point to, to make their case of a rapture;1 Cor. 15:51 “Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed.”
v. 52 “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
1 Thes. 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”We look at these scriptures and want to believe so much what they seem to say, that we read right over what they really say.
The last trumpet sound is for the dead in Christ only; they are the only once who will hear it. This is what the bible refers to as the first resurrection. Then Paul says; “we which are alive and remain”. What does remain mean? Remain alive until their death; then, at the moment of their death, in an instant they are changed.
From the day the first resurrection occurred, no saint will have to spend any time in the grave, his change will come before we, who are alive, will even know he is dead.
There are two scriptures that point to that;Dan. 12:12 “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”
Waiting is done in the grave, coming to the end of those days of waiting, or the first resurrection, is being alive.
Rev. 14:13 “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, write, blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth; Yea, saith the Spirit that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
Blessed are the dead, dead to this world but alive in Christ;
Col. 3:3 “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”
All your labours will rest at death, but the work for the kingdom of God, that you started when alive, will follow you.
All the saints that will rule and reign with Christ, have to be trained for their position. How much training do you have in ruling as a king, or in the responsibilities of a priest?Rev. 5:10 “And hast made us unto our God kings and priest; and we shall reign on the earth.”
There is one scripture that makes me wonder why it is never mentioned;
1 Thes. 4:16 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,…”
It seems to me, Christ is coming down to this earth, and not the other way around. And yes. there is another scripture that is completely over looked;
1 Cor. 15:36 “Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die.”
You can not be resurrected unless you die first. Then in an instant, you will be met by the Lord and all the saints, in the air, the spirit world. You remember, Jesus was trying to explain what a spirit is to Nicodemus? John 3:6+8. That is what Paul refers to when he said, meet the Lord in the air.
We also need to understand that only the resurrected saints will ever see Jesus face to face, and hear is the reason why?Rev. 1:16 “And he had in his right hand seven stars; and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword; and his countanance was as the sun shineth in his strength.”
Jesus is now a divine, glorified spirit being. For any human to look at him, would be like looking at an atomic explosion. What we will see is his glory shining from behind a cloud, he is protecting us. Remember Paul, he saw Jesus for just a moment and was blinded, Acts 9:17. This may come as a surprise or even shock to some, but you know, Jesus told us;
John 14:19 “Yet a little while, and the WORLD seeth me no
more,…”Study carefully, prove all things!
I will post a study on Antichrist soon, in which I will explain the 1335 days from Dan. 12:12, in greater detail.
I am a two finger typer, and for today that's all.
Oh, I am used to criticism.Hi IM,
You say
“Jesus is now a divine, glorified spirit being.”
We too will awake to find our new imperishable bodies like to the man from heaven and those alive will be changed in an instant. Those who have died in Christ only sleep and will be wakened by the voice as the Spirit in them cannot die and never leaves them in the same way as Christ died and was raised.I appreciate your reply, Nick
However, man does not have a soul, he is a soul. And if you believe man has a soul, then you must also believe that the soul that sinneth, it shall die; Ez. 18:20 ; Mat. 10:28, and
Rom. 6:23, also in Acts 3:23. There is nothing immortal in or about man, only God is immortal; 1Tim. 6:16.Hi IM,
Did I mention SOUL?
Yes the second death can destroy it.
But the new BODY is imperishable[1Cor15]
We do not want to be among those found naked.Hi Nick
Yes you said spirit, but in your view, are spirit and soul not the same? I would like to ask you to be more specific just what scriptures you're referring too and disagreeing with, as far as my assessments are concerned. I'm a bit confusedHi IM,
Heb 4
” 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. “Quote I appreciate your reply, Nick
However, man does not have a soul, he is a soul. And if you believe man has a soul, then you must also believe that the soul that sinneth, it shall die; Ez. 18:20 ; Mat. 10:28, and
Rom. 6:23, also in Acts 3:23. There is nothing immortal in or about man, only God is immortal; 1Tim. 6:16.I know this is getting a bit off topic, but I've been meaning to discuss 1 Tim 6:16 for a while. I'm just going to quote a source:
“What basis is there for saying that such phrases as “the one alone having immortality” and the one “whom not one of men has seen or can see” refer to Jesus rather than to Jehovah God?
The apostle Paul wrote: “This manifestation the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times, he the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see.”—1 Timothy 6:15, 16.
Bible commentators generally reason: ‘How could such phrases as “the one alone having immortality,” the “only Potentate,” and the one “whom not one of men has seen or can see” point to anyone other than the Almighty?’ Admittedly, such terms could be used to describe Jehovah. However, the context indicates that at 1 Timothy 6:15, 16, Paul was specifically referring to Jesus.
At the end of verse 14, Paul mentions “the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Timothy 6:14) Hence, when Paul writes in verse 15 that “this manifestation the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times,” he is referring to a manifestation of Jesus, not of Jehovah God. Who, then, is the “only Potentate”? It seems reasonable to conclude that Jesus is the Potentate referred to by Paul. Why? The context makes it evident that Paul is comparing Jesus with human rulers. Jesus truly is, as Paul wrote, “King of those [humans] who rule as kings and Lord of those [humans] who rule as lords.” Yes, compared to them, Jesus is the “only Potentate.” Jesus has been given “rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.” (Daniel 7:14) No human potentate can make that claim!
What about the phrase “the one alone having immortality”? Again, a comparison is being drawn between Jesus and human kings. No earthly rulers can claim to have been granted immortality, but Jesus can. Paul wrote: “We know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more.” (Romans 6:9) Thus, Jesus is the first one to be described in the Bible as receiving the gift of immortality. Indeed, at the time of Paul’s writing, Jesus was the only one who had attained indestructible life.
It should also be kept in mind that it would have been wrong for Paul to say that Jehovah God alone had immortality, since Jesus too was immortal when Paul wrote those words. But Paul could say that Jesus alone was immortal in comparison with earthly rulers.
Further, it is certainly true that after Jesus’ resurrection and ascension to heaven, he can be described as one “whom not one of men has seen or can see.” Granted, his anointed disciples would behold Jesus after their own death and subsequent resurrection to heaven as spirit creatures. (John 17:24) But no man on earth would see Jesus in his glorified state. Hence, it can truthfully be stated that since Jesus’ resurrection and ascension, “not one of men” has actually seen Jesus.
True, at first glance, it may seem as if the descriptions found at 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 could apply to God. But the context of Paul’s words—along with the corroboration of other scriptures—shows that Paul was referring to Jesus.
[Footnote]
Similar expressions are applied to Jesus at 1 Corinthians 8:5, 6; Revelation 17:12, 14; 19:16.”Hey sup! Anyway, I believe that will be a rapture. Though there are people who certainly agree with this notion, many do not. I believe that it will happen directly before The Great Tribulation.
*Oh yeah I think that there's the verse in Thessolonians – something about being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
if god came today who would be taken are any abiding in all truth do any keep his 10 laws that are 2 laws,the rapture would not effect this evil nation,for are there any who do not use gods name for them selves ex 3:14 john8:58 how manny even look to god in thier welth no they look to their money as god,even the poorest person in america lives better then any king in other times yet all we do is complane that we dont have enough,people in other countries live on a bowl of rice for a week for thier whole family,wow they must be fasting all the time what a closeness with god,we talk of god but are far from him,how many dont have any vaine images inthere houses for you cant buy hardly anything in this country any more without vain images all over it,we are slowly corrupting every other nation with the same abominations,will we be going with him you tell me! this is only the begining of mans sins aganst god and ourselves,how many keep his day, me know now there are some,its to bad we were not ripe when he came,me believe we are in the last day and will come through the tribulation as shineing wittnisses for him,that some may turn from thier sin,for we will never see death if we keep his saying,he could take us up today like enoch,if we just walked ritchously before him .
Hi m,
All God asks is that we believe in and obey the Son He sent.Is 1.
18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 'Jn 3
” 31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
Too easy for most
obey hmmm jesus said go and sin no more,did me lose the meaning of obey what does it mean to you ?gods laws also came from above,right out of the fathers mouth,so they are the WORD, are you discounting that,have you talked with god, did he come down from heaven ,and lower himself ,to sup with you,have you talked to him face to face, because you should,just ask him, do you know him?,for god is not a liar, he is the truth ,the WORD,the Light ,the Life ,THE ONE JESUS WANTS YOU TO KNOW ALSO,for god loves you he just hates your sin so repent and leave it behind you,and look to him,for he sent jesus to show the way to the father ,he said just follow me,jesus walked without sin ,he kept all of the fathers commandments,and obeyed his father even unto death (obeyed)would that mean that even though he really dident want to die,he did what his father told him to, do you do what the father says to do ,because jesus came and,said sin no more, do you believe the son and sin no more that you may recieve that everlasting life,or do you believe not the son and go on in your sin and not have life,but the rath of god instead of life, hmmm,god handed all judgement over to the son,the son said follow me,repent, go and sin no more, are these gods words or the sons hmmm,do you know thay are one,for how can a kingdom divided aganst its self stand,now you can take that many ways ,let us start with they are one in agenda,they both say the same things,for can the thuth lie or contradict ones self no,so why try to change god or even jesus to suit your own ways,but rather his ways should be your ways,you are to become like him,then you can be with him,you speak of life wanting life eternal,wanting a garentee of this life eternal you already have it,ether to with him if your like him,or to eternal damnation.god keeps his own commandments, please dont take this out of context -(like)for there are none like god ,nothing can compare to him for he is awesome, and mightily to be praise,me dont even have the words to discribe him,for they are not in our vocabularys of any language,the words alone could not even hold a drop of his glory, praise you father, and thank you for the words you do give us to spread your truth and glorify your name,for your name is above every name,even in the name of the son ,so when we praise yahshua weare realy praiseing you,so who is your god ! hmmm jesus loves you,
Dear IM4Truth;
Grace and peace to you from God the Father and from his Son our Lord Jesus Christ. After reading many of your questions and answers I was saddened to find you have missed the paramount truth that Christ taught concerning his coming- To be ready. Most of the scriptures that you cite do not refer to the rapture, but the resurrection including 1Cor. 15 and 1Thes. 4:14-17. Of all the parables that Christ taught, he gave more parables which emphasized the point of being ready for his coming than any other scriptural truth including two in the field, two grinding at the mill, two sleeping in bed, which all included the warning to watch. Others like the Goodman of House included the warning to be ready. The Faithful and Wise Servant, the Ten Virgins, the Parable of the Talents all have one central common denominator – Obedience to God's will in your life. Grace did not replace obedience to God, but simplified obedience by ridding away with all of the proceduralism of the law. No where in the parables of Christ does he suggest that just because they were his disciples that they were worthy to escape based upon grace. The issue wasn't grace, it was obedience. These parables were all intended for his disciples, which is why he taught in parables. He actually taught not to be so much concerned about when he is coming but to be busy doing the Lord's business until he comes. (Read Acts 1) In Mathew and Mark, Christ said to pray that your flight be not in the winter or the Sabbath day because then shall be great tribulation. If all believers were automatically going to be raptured, then Christ's teaching to pray in this regard was pointless because all believers would be raptured as you teach. The parable of the ten virgins shows that five entered and five did not. The five that did not enter would then have to go through the tribulation and be an example of the days of Lot, which Christ taught us was relevant to his coming. The parable of the talents again portrays a Lord – servant relationship that can potentially go bad and result in tribulation which could result in pillars of salt if obedience is not maintained during the tribulation. Christ taught his disciples to be prepared for great tribulation and to pray to be worthy to escape. All of the way through his discourse on the end times in Mathew 24 and 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21, Jesus gives notice to his disciples of what they would have to endure; e.g., ye, you, your. Moreover, this was a private teaching to his disciples immediately after he told them that natural Israel (the temple) would be destroyed. Christ told the Pharisees that all the blood of the prophets from Abel to Zachariah would be required of them. He concluded his message to them in Mark 13 by saying you are not going to see me again until you hear, “Blessed is he which cometh in the name of the Lord”, which would be through us his witnesses. The most problematic part of what you teach is that the people in your church are not hearing the truth, even though I see it in their eyes that they don't believe what they're being taught in this regard. The danger in many churches is that there is no teaching on the coming of the Lord. Why? Because to them it is not an issue. They believe that they will automatically be raptured even though Christ taught more on the issue of being ready for his coming by being obedient than any other truth. The omission of the truth is spiritual negligence by many and absolutely intentional by others because they fear their people cannot accept the truth. It's pretty ironic. Of all the preaching on television I've seen in the last few years, I haven't heard one sermon on the consequences to the believer for not being ready for the rapture when it was the most important message of Christ. The reason is because they believe they will automatically be raptured under grace, which contradicts what Christ taught in all his parables.
Normally, the rapture teaching is supported by I Thes. 4:15-18, which is not the rapture, but the Second Coming in Glory. READ the gospels, after the tribulation, the Second Coming in Glory is with a trumpet, the voice of the archangel, clouds of glory. The same as what is described by Paul in 1 Thes. 4:15-18. How the church missed this truth is mind boggling. The Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, an early flight before the tribulation commences. Why pray to be raptured? Because you don't decide to be raptured, God does. If you fail to pray in this regard you probably will not be ready because you have violated scripture and God normally does not grant prayers that are not prayed. If you pray this way you are now opening up your life to the true purpose of God.Thieves do not sound trumpets or give notice. Paul even wrote to the Thessalonians in his following epistle that the Antichrist would have to come before the Lord appears in Glory. Incidentally, Paul doesn't mention a prayer of escape but follows the same order of the Gospels by stating first, a four verse synopsis of Christ Coming in Glory, and then follows it with an eight verse warning to be ready that the day does not overtake them as a thief. In I These. Paul actually states “we” which are alive and remain will not prevent those who sleep. This is the last trump which includes the resurrection which occurs after the tribulation. This is why Paul had to write them again to tell them that the Man of Sin had to come first. Paul writes optimistically of their spiritual well-being, but Christ spoke explicitly of what it meant to be ready for his Coming.
I can only hope and pray that somehow the Church will hear the truth, but you are in the position to speak the truth to those under your guidance. Paul said I shun not to declare unto you the full counsel of God.
Take Care
Mr. Steve
Hi Nick;
The scripture doesn't say precisely. However, Jesus said to let your lights burn brightly. For that to occur we must abide in the vine. I believe he is reiterrating a common denominator found in the rest of the parables-obedience to the personal will of God in your life.
Nick; Be filled with the spirit speaking to yourselves… Eph 4 Paul also said quench not the spirit. What this spells is the spirit dwelling in us by obedience to his will.
Mr. Steve
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