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Hi RD,
Jn 12
47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
You put a lot of importance on this verse as referring to the last 1000 years rather than the final day.
If you are right and you do not think that the judging that the saints do in that last 1000 years is not day to day decision making when do you think this trial begins and how much of the 1000 years will it take up to divide sheep from goats?Hi RD,
John 5:26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;So the son was already alive, then was GIVEN to have life in himself.
Quote (ronday888 @ Feb. 11 2008,06:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 06 2008,19:47)
Perfection is in the eyes of God and not our own. Those who return some value on the investment God made in them are given some reward but it is according to grace sought and given, not self effort.I am not sure what is being meant by the above, but this sounds as though it is saying that the rewards given to the believer have nothing to do with works. Faith without works is dead. And yet there it also by grace that anyone can work as co-workers with God and Jesus. One cannot do anything along this line on his own; he has to do this by means of submission to God's spirit, and by receiving the strength of God's spirit through Jesus.
John 15:5 You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
The fruitage borne is the fruitage of the spirit. — Galatians 5:22,23.
The reason we cannot do anything on our own is because due to Adam's sin, we have all, in our sinful flesh, been made crooked, unjust, not straight.
Ecclesiastes 1:15 That which is crooked can't be made straight; and that which is lacking can't be counted.
Ecclesiastes 7:13 Consider the work of God, for who can make that straight, which he has made crooked?
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;The New Testament says much about works and labor in accordance with faith:
http://tinyurl.com/ypb3t6
http://tinyurl.com/2hj23xThrough Christ, however, we can do the works of the spirit.
Philippians 4:13 – I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
Jesus, however, told of different degrees of fruitage produced. — Matthew 13:18.
Thus there are various rewards given according to what was done in the present body. — 2 Corinthians 5:10.
Hi RD,
Heb 12
12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;13And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
All works in Christ are the result of grace.
The man who returned two talents for his two did enough.Hi RD,
Lk1
30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Christ was conceived in Mary so she was his true mother and not a surrogate one.
He inherited our sinful estate but overcame sin in the flesh so we can follow him.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2008,14:40) Hi RD,
Adam was given life, but not eternal life[zoe]. He did not eat of the tree of life.
Jn 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.[zoe2222]
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[zoe2222]So the living sons of Adam were offered eternal life.
Christ was born a son of Adam[man] and did not receive the life he could give to us till it had been given to him at his anointing with the Spirit of Life at the Jordan. This life was in him and can be also in us.Rom 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Adam was not dying until he sinned. He was indeed alive. Thus, he was in the condition of living forever until he lost that life through sin. It is that everlasting life that Adam lost that is purchased by Jesus' sacrifice. Everlasting life is an on-going condition, but which condition can be taken away through sin. No one can say: “I have everlasting life because I have lived eternally.” It is not a possession that can ever be accomplished so as to put it in the past tense. To live eternally is to live continuously, on and on. Adam possessed that life until he sinned. If he didn't, then Jesus' sacrifice of life could repurchase what was lost in Adam.
However, everlasting life actually exists in two forms, one which can be lost, and the other which will never will be lost. The latter stage is what is given after one puts on incorruption, that is, immortality. It is still everlasting life, but, because of the incorruptibility proven, it will never be lost, and thus it will find it is true fulfillment in the resurrection of never dying again.
For instance, those who are sanctified (consecrated) by the sacrifice of Jesus' body and the blood of the new covenant (Hebrews 10:10,29), are indeed accounted as having everlasting life but they can lose that everlasting life through the willful sin as described in Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26-29. The reason is that such person has already partaken of the benefits of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus as a kind of firstfruits to God, and thus if he takes himself outside of those benefits, if he does not remain in Christ (John 15:6), there are no more sacrifices for sin to be offered. Such die a death, not in Adam, but in themselves, a death for which there is no sacrifice to be offered. They cannot return into the condemnation of Adam so as again receive the benefits of Christ's sacrifice; nor can they have Christ to die again so as to cover thier willful sin.
Having received the power of the age to come so as to receive the benefits of the blood of the new covenant in this age, they cannot do so again. (Hebrews 6:4,5) They are thus accounted as those who will not learn righteousness in the age to come (Isaiah 26:10), so as to receive the sentence of death, not in Adam, but the second death, twice dead. — Jude 1:12; Revelation 20:14.
The point is, having everlasting life is not the same as having put on incorruption so as to have immortality. It is those who have received everlasting life that must “who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruptibility, eternal life (living forever).” Until the seed/grain planted (1 Corinthians 15:27), puts on corruption, even though not corrupted, it is still corruptible. It, the bear grain, is sown in a condition being subjection to corruption, as well as in a world in bondage to corruption, but is raised in an incorrutible condition. Once the grain being sown has put on incorruption, he is has proven himself incorruptible, has fully overcome, can no longer be harmed by the second death — he is counted as immortal; when raised in the last day, he will live forever, and can no longer be harmed by the second death. (1 Corinthians 15:54; Revelation 2:11)
However, before the new creature puts on incorruption, although he is already counted as having everlasting life, and the grain being sown is incorrupt, he is not made incorruptible by that accounting, nor was Adam made incorruptible by having everlasting life. Thus, until Adam should have proved himself incorruptible, Adam was not immortal, even though he was in the condition of living forever.
Quote (ronday888 @ Feb. 11 2008,15:49) If he didn't, then Jesus' sacrifice of life could repurchase what was lost in Adam. Ooops! This should have read: “If he didn't, then Jesus' sacrifice of life could not repurchase what was lost in Adam.”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2008,14:54) Hi RD,
John 5:26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;So the son was already alive, then was GIVEN to have life in himself.
*******Hi RD,
You say
“Adam was not dying until he sinned. He was indeed alive. Thus, he was in the condition of living forever until he lost that life through sin.”
But scripture says
Gen 3
“22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: “Hi RD,
Adam was given life in gen 2.7
This lifeNumber 2416
Transliteration:
chay {khah'-ee}
Word Origin:
from 2421
TWOT:
644a AV – live 197, life 144, beast 76, alive 31, creature 15, running 7, living thing 6, raw 6, misc 19
Part of Speech:
TWOT – 644a
Usage in the KJV:
live 197, life 144, beast 76, alive 31, creature 15, running 7, living thing 6, raw 6, misc 19Total: 501
Definition:
adj
living, alive
green (of vegetation)
flowing, fresh (of water)
lively, active (of man)
reviving (of the springtime) n m
relatives
life (abstract emphatic)
life
sustenance, maintenance n f
living thing, animal
animal
life
appetite
revival, renewal
communityHi RD,
You say
Having received the power of the age to come so as to receive the benefits of the blood of the new covenant in this age, they cannot do so again. (Hebrews 6:4,5) They are thus accounted as those who will not learn righteousness in the age to come (Isaiah 26:10), so as to receive the sentence of death, not in Adam, but the second death, twice dead. — Jude 1:12; Revelation 20:14.You quote
Is 26
'10Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.”Why should you apply this verse to the millenial age?
Why should you teach what this scripture does not seem to say, that men are given a second chance to learn in the millenium?
Quote (ronday888 @ Feb. 11 2008,14:24) The expression “living faith” does actually appear in the scriptures. I left the word “not” out again. The above should read:
The expression “living faith” does not actually appear in the scriptures.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2008,14:45) Hi RD,
Jn 12
47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
You put a lot of importance on this verse as referring to the last 1000 years rather than the final day.
While I don't know of any scripture that speaks of a “final day” that is not the “last day”, if I were to use the term “final day”, I would use it as meaning the “last day”, and not anything other than the “last day”. Thus, to me, since the “last day” would mean the same thing as the “final day”, I would not think of refering to that “day” as 1,000 rather than that “day”, since I believe that “final/last day” is the 1,000 years during which Jesus raises the believers first, and followed by the raising and judging of the world.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2008,14:45)
If you are right and you do not think that the judging that the saints do in that last 1000 years is not day to day decision making when do you think this trial begins and how much of the 1000 years will it take up to divide sheep from goats?I don't remember ever saying that the judgment will not mean day to day decision making. I am sure that there will be day-to-day decisions that will be involved in the judging process.
The Bible does not tell us how much of the “last day” it will take to divide the sheep and goats, and I have no reason to speculate on it.
Hi RD,
Rev 20
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
So Satan will be bound for all of the 1000 years.
Then he will be loosed.
Later there will be the general judgement.That means the millenium will be completed by the time the sheep and goat judgement begins.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2008,14:54) Hi RD,
John 5:26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;So the son was already alive, then was GIVEN to have life in himself.
While there is nothing in John 5:26 that indicates that Jesus was alive before he was given the life being spoken of, I do agree that Jesus was alive before being given that life, having a heavenly glory, before he was given life as a man, before he became flesh, which glory he did not have while he was a human. (John 17:5) It was as a human that the scriptures refer to him as having life in himself. (John 1:4) This life was given to him from the very point of conception, thus Jesus could say that his Father has given him to have life in himself. It is as a human that it is important to us that in him was life, since it is that life that was sacrificed to redeem us from the sin and death in Adam, as I have already shown.
Hi RD,
I believe he had life before conception in Mary and new life form the Spirit of Life was given him at the Jordan.
Mt27
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.When he died on calvary and his spirit left him it cost him everything and he lost all life ties with his original and human states but was raised and now lives in the Spirit of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2008,15:47) Hi RD,
Lk1
30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Christ was conceived in Mary so she was his true mother and not a surrogate one.
He inherited our sinful estate but overcame sin in the flesh so we can follow him.Mary was indeed the true mother of Jesus due her being conceived by means of the holy spirit; this does not mean that Jesus had to share the genes in which the bloodline had been tainted with sin. Nor would I use the term surrogate mother in regards to Mary.
However, Jesus' body was indeed prepared by his God and Father, and thus was not prepared by a male sperm being injected into the womb of Mary. Nor do I believe that God injected sperm from Himself into an ovum of Mary, although I would not rule that out as a possibility.
If Jesus, however, inherited the sinful state then it would have been just as impossible for him to have made himself straight as for any of the rest of mankind to do so. He would have been held by the bondage of corruption just as the rest of the human race. (See my earlier posts for scriptures regarding this.)
No, his flesh was from above in that it was from God. (John 6:51) When Jesus became flesh (John 1:14), that was when it was true that in him was life (John 1:4), from the very moment of conception, else he could not have been God's son, or son of the Most High, but he would have been, by nature, a child of wrath, a son of disobedience, as the rest of mankind. (Ephesians 2:2,3)
There is nothing in the scriptures that indicate that he was not God's son from conception, and much that shows that he was God's son. Being begotten by God's spirit gives direct proof that he was, from conception, God's Son. (Matthew 1:20) Luke 1:32, the verse after the verses quoted above, gives recognition to Jesus as God's Son. In Matthew 2:15, Matthew records God's recognition of Jesus as his son at a very early age. At the age of 12, Jesus speaks of his true father, thus recognizing himself as the son of God. (Luke 2:49) So, if Jesus was born into this world without being the son of God, then one might wonder at what point he justified himself from the crooked condition so as to become God's son.
There is no indication in the scriptures that Jesus was once crooked but had somehow made himself straight, had somehow gotten himself out of the crooked condition that he was born into. Indeed, since the law never justified anyone from that crooked condition (Romans 3:20; Galatians 3:11,21), and since justification [being made straight, not crooked] from that crooked condition comes only through putting faith in the blood of Jesus (Acts 4:12; 13:39; Romans 5:9; Galatians 2:16), there could be no basis for Jesus to be justified if he had indeed been born a sinner as the rest of mankind, and thus there never would be any basis for anyone else to be justified. Therefore, Jesus had to be born already justified, already straight, for this was the only way by which he could keep/fulfill the just law of God.
Hi RD,
God was a true father to His son Jesus and guided him through suffering to full obedience to the Law.Is 53
” 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. “
Why did Jesus say this?
Luke 4:23
And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2008,16:06) Hi RD,
You say
“Adam was not dying until he sinned. He was indeed alive. Thus, he was in the condition of living forever until he lost that life through sin.”
But scripture says
Gen 3
“22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: “Even though Adam had life in his organism, it was necessary for him to sustain life, soul or sentient being, by partaking of the fruits of the trees sustaining that life in the garden. (Genesis 1:29; 2:9,16) And when he sinned, and had eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, God did not want him to also eat of the life-sustaining trees in the garden so, God drove him from the garden, “lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree [plural trees or grove] of life, and eat, and live forever .” (Genesis 3:22) This indicates that the trees in the garden had nutrients that could sustain life indefinitely, while the trees outside the garden did not contain such nutrients. Nothing in this should be taken to mean that Adam and Eve were not already eating the fruit of those life-sustaining trees, but since they had eaten of the forbidden tree, God did not want them to also eat of the trees of life after having eaten the fruit of that forbidden tree.
As for Jesus, he was born into a world without those life-sustaining trees, and yet in his flesh was life. Since that flesh, however, was given for the very purpose of being expended in suffering and dying in the likeness of sinful flesh, there was no need to provide that flesh with fruit from the trees of life that Jesus could live forever as a man. However, Jesus had that right to so live forever as a man, since he had never sinned, and due to his being born into the world without sin, and due to the fact that he never sinned, he never fell short of the glory of God in his flesh. That life, including the right live forever as a human, was what he sacrificed on our behalf.
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