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I am replying in a new thread to the topic “Trinity” since the topic has drifted away from the trinity.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 24 2008,22:28) Nick…..> while i would agree with you saying, we are all born in a kingdom of darkness, I believe we are not born sinners though, but become infected by it, like we do when exposed to viruses, we were born into a infected world and through contact it transfers to us, and i think we remain infected some what until we recieve our new bodies. IMO……….gene
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. — Romans 5:19, American Standard Version.
So you believe that an embryo, or newborn baby who dies, dies because he was infected by sin from an infected world? Does a baby died by means of Adam, or does a baby die because of his own sin, or whose sin?
If the baby does not die because he has the sin of Adam, then he is not included in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. It is only because, as Paul says, the many (the whole human race through Adam) are “made sinners” because of Adam's disobedience, that the many (the whole human race dying through Adam's disobedience) will be made alive.
If any are not made sinners through Adam's disobedience and are dying without having been made sinners through Adam, then there is no hope for them. They are outside the ransom sacrifice of Jesus.
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom [Antilutron, an offsetting price, corresponding price] for all [pantwn, a form of pas – Strong's #3956], to be testified in due time.
All forms of pas need to look to context as well as common evidence for determination of what is included in the “all” being spoken of. It is evident from the rest of the Bible of the Bible that pantwn here does not refer to absolutely all things in the universe, not even all “created” things. It is not, for instance, speaking of the faithful angels in heavens, since they do not need any price to be paid for them. Paul is speaking “all” who are dying in Adam, as he said to the Corinthians: “death came through [Greek, dia] a man.” (1 Corinthians 15:21, The Holman Christian Standard Bible translation) “Death”, evidently does not include death in all the lower living creation, but death in mankind. Thus, Paul, continues, “in [Greek, en, corresponding with the Greek dia, showing instrumentality, by means of] Adam all are dying.” (1 Corinthians 15:22) The man through whom death came to be was the first man, Adam. Death is the wages of sin (Romans 6:23), and thus, because Adam sinned, through his one sin all his descendants were “made sinners”, and thus the wages of sin — death — could come upon any of them at any time after conception, even as an embryo, or only a few minutes after birth. The sin of Adam was extended to all, making them all sinners, and thus under the condemnation of death. “by the transgression of the one the many [all of Adam's descendants] died.” (Romans 5:15, New American Standard, NAS) “Through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men.” (Romans 5:18, NAS) That condemnation was death, because as he then shows in the next verse, these were “made sinners” through the disobedience of Adam. Being made sinners through his disobedience, thus David could say: “I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Psalm 51:5, King James Version) David was not saying that his mother committed a sin by conceiving David, but rather that when he was conceived, he was already “in sin.”
There was one man who sinned — Adam, whose disobedience made all of his offspring sinners and brought the death penalty upon all his posterity. There was one Man who died, the Just for the unjust — Christ Jesus. Thus we have the corresponding/offsetting-price.
By making all sinners in one man, and thus under condemnation of death through one man, not only who we see God's love but also his wisdom in the method that he chose.
For instance, suppose that God had placed fifty perfect human beings on trial in Eden at the beginning, and that one half of them had sinned — twenty-five sinners and an equal number of saints; and suppose that there had been provided a paradise for the saints and the cursed condition for the sinners. Condemnation on one side of the fence, and blessing on the other — what confusion there would be! Then when it came to the redemption of the sinners, it would require that the twenty-five saints die for the twenty-five sinners. Where would the matter have ended then? God's strict justice demands: “Your eyes shall not pity; life [shall go] for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.” (Deuteronomy 19:21; Exodus 21:23-25.) And God operates His Government along the line of Justice, as the Psalmist intimates.
Thus, if any of mankind are not made sinners by means of Adam's transgression, that such a person should die, he would not be dying “in” — by means of — Adam, and thus would not be included in the resurrection. Thus we should be glad that we have all been made sinners through Adam's disobedience, since it is only by this means that one man brings deliverance from the condemnation of death. So, if an embryo had not been made a sinner through Adam's disobedience and that embryo dies, then that embryo would have paid the wages of sin — death — for his own sin, which makes no sense, since an embryo has not committed any act of sin.
Because all are made sinners through Adam's disobedience, then Jesus' ransom sacrifice is for Adam and all of his descendants, for the purpose of raising them from death and hades in the age to come, the day of judgment when the world of mankind will be blessed by God's kingdom through Jesus. The Christians, those called of this age, are exceptions, for they are not raised for judgment with the world, but they are being chosen and developed to judge the world with Jesus. Likewise, the faithful of old come forth in the earlier resurrection, and will become “princes in all the earth” (Psalm 45:16) who will rule in justice. — Isaiah 32:1.
It is because of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, that God “has appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness” — “the day of judgment and perdition [destruction] of ungodly men; but . . . do not be ignorant of this one thing, that one day with Yahweh is as a thousand years.” — Acts 17:31; 2 Peter 3:7,8; Psalm 90:4.
Because Christ paid the debt for mankind, “in that day,” the 1,000-year reign of Messiah, when He will judge mankind, “the earth will be full of the knowledge of Yahweh, as the waters cover the sea.” Then it will be said: “Look, this is our God. We have waited for him, and he will save us . . . . We will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.” — Isaiah 11:9,10; 25:6-9; 40:5; 52:10: Jeremiah 31:34; Habakkuk 2:14.
The saints, however, purchased as firstfruits to God (James 1:18), will rule with him over the earth in 1,000-year judgment day and assist in judging the world, offering to them “the water of life freely.” — Daniel 7:22,27; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Obadiah 21; Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:29,30; Romans 8:16-21; 2 Timothy 2:11,12; Revelation 3:21; 5:9,10; 20:4,6; 22:17.
The saints becomes saints partake of the age to come — the millennial age — so as to receive the application of ransom sacrifice before the world. (Hebrews 6:5) By receiving the benefits of the ransom beforehand, then, they become Abraham's seed with Christ, “sons of God”, and will particpate in blessing “all the families of the earth.” This blessing will come to the world during the 1,000-year reign. –
– Genesis 12:3; 22:16-18; Galatians 3:7-9,16,29; Hebrews 6:13-20; Acts 3:19-25.Due to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, those who are to be blessed include the dead as well as the living — the dead will be awakened from their “sleep” in death (Psalm 6:5; 146:4; Daniel 12:2; John 5:28,29 NASV; 11:11-14; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; 2 Peter 3:4) and will then be given an exact knowledge of the truth and a full opportunity to live eternally.
Thus, due to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, eventually “God will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither will there be any more pain; for the former things [things of Satan's reign, including the curse of sin and death] are passed away.” — Revelation 21:1-4; 22:1-3; Isaiah 35:10; 65:17-25.
“When the Son of man will come in his glory . . . then he will sit on the throne of his glory: and all nations [the unbelieving heathen – Psalm 46:10; 67; 72:1,11,17; 96:3,10; Isaiah 2:2-4; Ezekiel 37:28; 38:16; 39:7] will be gathered [from hades and death — Revelation 20:12,13] before him. He will separate them [under the testings of that great judgment day] one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.” Those whom he finds to be righteous, pictured as sheep (those who become sheep in the next age, not Christ's sheep of this present age — John 10:14-15), will be given everlasting life and will “inherit the kingdom” on earth (the meek will inherit it — Matthew 5:5), whereas those who will not have proved worthy, pictured as goats, will “go away into everlasting punishment [Greek, kolasin, cutting-off]” in the second death, never to live again. “All the wicked he will destroy.” — Matthew 25:31-46; Psalm 145:20; Revelation 20:9,15; 21:8.
The destruction of the wicked is symbolized by their being cast into the “lake of fire,” “which is the second death,” into “everlasting fire [fire is an apt symbol, not of preservation, but of destruction], prepared for the devil [who is to be destroyed, annihilated — Hebrews 2:14; Ezekiel 28:19] and his angels” — Revelation 20:14,15; 21:8; Matthew 25:41.
“The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.” “The soul that is sinning, it will die.” Eventually “every soul who will not hear [obey] that prophet [Christ] will be destroyed from among the people.” — Romans 6:21,23; John 3:36; 1 John 5:12; Psalm 37:38; Ezekiel 18:4,20; Acts 3:19-23.
Even though I have been as concise as I thought I could be, and still get the points across, this has still become a long post, and there are many, many scriptures cited. For many, I suspect that much stated will not be understood or appreciated. Only those who will ask for and actively seek God's wisdom from the scriptures will understand; and even then, one may be hindered by the traditions that set up mental blocks to understanding. May God bless.
Hi RD,
You say
“Due to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, those who are to be blessed include the dead as well as the living — the dead will be awakened from their “sleep” in death (Psalm 6:5; 146:4; Daniel 12:2; John 5:28,29 NASV; 11:11-14; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; 2 Peter 3:4) and will then be given an exact knowledge of the truth and a full opportunity to live eternally.”So are you speaking of the second resurrection here?
Where is it written the raised will be educated and given a fresh opportunity?Hi,
The word RANSOM appears twice in the NTMatt 20
28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”1Tim2
5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
As SOL pointed out a ransom is not paid to to the good but to evildoers and so is it possible that the life of Christ was the price paid for the potential release of all from the kingdom of darkness and that god of this earth?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 31 2008,14:18) Hi,
The word RANSOM appears twice in the NTMatt 20
28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”1Tim2
5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
As SOL pointed out a ransom is not paid to to the good but to evildoers and so is it possible that the life of Christ was the price paid for the potential release of all from the kingdom of darkness and that god of this earth?
NHI dont think so.
The Father nor Yehsua had to pay satan anything back.
For satan was a liar and a thief from the beginning.
Jesus simply conquered satan and took back what was already ours. He conquered the world and satan and even death so that we could also overcome and take back what was stolen.
The payment Jesus made was for our sin against God. His sacrifice was to satisfy the justice of a Holy God and to bring us back into fellowship with him.
The dept was due to God and not to satan.
1 Jn 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.Blessings
Quote NH I dont think so.
The Father nor Yehsua had to pay satan anything back.
Definitely true.
Quote Where is it written the raised will be educated and given a fresh opportunity?
The bible speaks of a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. Why would God resurrect the unrighteous just to condemn them to death. It appears such a resurrection is for ones who didn't have the opportunity to hear the good news and decide which side they were on.
I believe that during judgement day (the thousand years) these ones will be given the chance to show their true colors.To the wicked one beside him, Jesus said: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”
Will this wicked one be given an opportunity to be educated? This was not a disciple of Jesus, but Jesus could see something in him.ACTS 24:15
“and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”John 5:28, 29: “All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”
REVELATION 20:12-13
“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.”Both those who formerly did good things and those who formerly practiced bad things will be “judged individually according to their deeds.” What deeds?
It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people simply for them to be destroyed. So, at John 5:28, 29a, Jesus was pointing ahead to the resurrection; then, in the remainder of verse 29, he was expressing the outcome after they had been uplifted to human perfection and been put on judgment.Hi David,
You say
“The bible speaks of a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. Why would God resurrect the unrighteous just to condemn them to death. It appears such a resurrection is for ones who didn't have the opportunity to hear the good news and decide which side they were on.”For a man who knows scripture I am surprised you would move to pure conjecture.
Where is this second chance written?Hi David,
You say
“I believe that during judgement day (the thousand years) these ones will be given the chance to show their true colors”Well of course the first resurrection is only of the sons of God and into the 1000yr reign.
The general resurrection of the nations is after that time.[Rev 20]Were you thinking all the men who had ever lived would be living together on this little globe for 1000 years?
Sounds like a bit of a squash.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 31 2008,16:46) Hi RD,
You say
“Due to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, those who are to be blessed include the dead as well as the living — the dead will be awakened from their “sleep” in death (Psalm 6:5; 146:4; Daniel 12:2; John 5:28,29 NASV; 11:11-14; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; 2 Peter 3:4) and will then be given an exact knowledge of the truth and a full opportunity to live eternally.”So are you speaking of the second resurrection here?
Where is it written the raised will be educated and given a fresh opportunity?
Jesus said he came, not to judge the world, but to save (deliver) the world.Yes, in beginning of the “last day”, those who believe are raised first (John 6:39,40,44,54), and will participate with Jesus in ruling and judging (Daniel 7:22; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Revelation 20:4) the world of mankind that are raised for judgment in that same “last day”. — John 5:28,29; 14:48.
Christian love,
RonaldQuote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 31 2008,16:46) Where is it written the raised will be educated and given a fresh opportunity? Yahweh comes to judge the world of mankind by means of the one whom he has appointed.
[God] has appointed a day in which he [God] will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he has ordained; whereof he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead. — Acts 17:31.
Yahweh … comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, The peoples with his truth. — Psalm 96:13.
Yahweh, For he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, And the peoples with equity. — Psalm 98:9.
These scriptures have to do with the “last day” judgment of the world. It is in the “last day” that the world will be raised for judgment. This judgment takes place on earth.
John 5:28
Don't marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
John 5:29
and will come forth; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.John 12:48
He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.When God's judgments are in the earth, the world will learn righteousness.
Isaiah 26:9
when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.Isaiah 2:2
It shall happen in the latter days, that the mountain of Yahweh's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be raised above the hills; And all nations shall flow to it.
Isaiah 2:3
Many peoples shall go and say, “Come, let's go up to the mountain of Yahweh, To the house of the God of Jacob; And he will teach us of his ways, And we will walk in his paths. For out of Zion the law shall go forth, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.
Isaiah 2:4
He will judge between the nations, And will decide concerning many peoples; And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruning-hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war any more.Not all of the world, however, will learn righteousness, even though they be shown favor in the new earth of righteousness. — 2 Peter 3:13.
Isaiah 26:10 Let favor be shown to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land [earth – 'erets] of uprightness will he deal wrongfully, and will not see the majesty of Yahweh.
Jesus showed that when his disciples will judge Israel, it will be the time of the regeneration (or re-creation).
Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly I tell you, that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on the throne of his glory, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”It is in the time when those of Israel will be restored to life (regeneration), that is, the unbelievers of Israel who are judges in the “last day”. (John 12:48) It is the same time that is spoken of in Matthew 25:31-46, when Jesus sits on his throne of glory, and separates the heathen, represented as “sheep” and “goats”. It is thus the “day” that God has appointed to the judge the world by means of the one whom he has ordained, Jesus. — Acts 17:31.
It is only because Jesus came to save the world, that the world will be released from the first judgment through, and its condemnation and penalty, death and hades, in that last day, that they might be judged by means of the things written in the books that are opened to them in that “last day” of judgment, according to their works. Those who learn righteousness in that earth of uprightness will have their names written in the book of life that is opened to them at that time. These will inherit the kingdom (dominion) that God prepared for man in the beginning, and they will live forever upon the earth. (Genesis 1:26,28; Psalm 8:5-8; Matthew 25:34; Psalm 37:29) Those who do not learn righteousness will not have their names written in the book of life and will be thrown into the second death, the death for which there is not ransom sacrifice, since “there remains no more a sacrifice for sins.” (Hebrews 10:26) Thus, those who go into the second death die for their own willfull sin, not because of being condemned in Adam. Those who die the second death are dead, cease to have sentiency, for eternity — eternal punishment. — Revelation 20:11-15; Matthew 25:46.
Quote (ronday888 @ Feb. 01 2008,03:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 31 2008,16:46) Hi RD,
You say
“Due to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, those who are to be blessed include the dead as well as the living — the dead will be awakened from their “sleep” in death (Psalm 6:5; 146:4; Daniel 12:2; John 5:28,29 NASV; 11:11-14; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; 2 Peter 3:4) and will then be given an exact knowledge of the truth and a full opportunity to live eternally.”So are you speaking of the second resurrection here?
Where is it written the raised will be educated and given a fresh opportunity?
Jesus said he came, not to judge the world, but to save (deliver) the world.Yes, in beginning of the “last day”, those who believe are raised first (John 6:39,40,44,54), and will participate with Jesus in ruling and judging (Daniel 7:22; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Revelation 20:4) the world of mankind that are raised for judgment in that same “last day”. — John 5:28,29; 14:48.
Christian love,
Ronald
Hi RD,
The sons of the resurrection are to be judges kings and priests, but teachers?It is not written that further education and more opportunities for salvation will be offered to those raised later.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 31 2008,16:46) Where is it written the raised will be educated and given a fresh opportunity? Yahweh comes to judge the world of mankind by means of the one (Jesus) whom he has appointed.
[God] has appointed a day in which he [God] will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he has ordained; whereof he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead. — Acts 17:31.
Thus Jesus' resurrection provides assurance, a guarantee, of the coming day of judgment for the world of mankind, when righteousness (that which is not crooked, that which is just, incorrupt) will prevail (Psalm 9:8; 72:2; Isaiah 9:7; 11:4; 32:1; 2 Peter 3:13), and not the deceptions of Satan that now fill the earth. — Revelation 12:9; 20:1-4.
Yahweh … comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, The peoples with his truth. — Psalm 96:13.
Yahweh, For he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, And the peoples with equity. — Psalm 98:9.
Acts 10:42
He charged us to preach to the people and to testify that this is he who is appointed by God as the Judge of the living and the dead.2 Timothy 4:1
I charge you therefore before God and the Lord, Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom.These scriptures have to do with the “last day” judgment of the world. It is in the “last day” that the world will be raised for judgment. This judgment takes place on earth.
John 5:28
Don't marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
John 5:29
and will come forth; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.John 12:48
He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.When God's judgments are in the earth, the world will learn righteousness.
Isaiah 26:9
when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.Isaiah 2:2
It shall happen in the latter days, that the mountain of Yahweh's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be raised above the hills; And all nations shall flow to it.
Isaiah 2:3
Many peoples shall go and say, “Come, let's go up to the mountain of Yahweh, To the house of the God of Jacob; And he will teach us of his ways, And we will walk in his paths. For out of Zion the law shall go forth, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.
Isaiah 2:4
He will judge between the nations, And will decide concerning many peoples; And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruning-hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war any more.Yes, that day of judgment will be the time foretold when God blesses all the heathen by means of the seed of Abraham. Mankind will indeed be instructed in the ways of Yahweh.
Not all of the world, however, will learn righteousness, even though they be shown favor in the new earth of righteousness. — 2 Peter 3:13.
Isaiah 26:10 Let favor be shown to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land [earth – 'erets] of uprightness will he deal wrongfully, and will not see the majesty of Yahweh.
Jesus showed that when his disciples will judge Israel, it will be the time of the regeneration (or re-creation).
Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly I tell you, that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on the throne of his glory, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”It is in the time when those of Israel will be restored to life (regeneration), that is, the unbelievers of Israel who are judged by means of Jesus and his disciples in the “last day”. (John 12:48) It is the same time that is spoken of in Matthew 25:31-46, when Jesus sits on his throne of glory, and separates the heathen, represented as “sheep” and “goats”. It is thus the “day” that God has appointed to the judge the world by means of the one whom he has ordained, Jesus. — Acts 17:31.
It is only because Jesus came to save the world (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14), that the world will be released from the first judgment and its condemnation and penalty — death and hades — in that last day, that they might be judged by means of the things written in the books that are opened to them in that “last day” of judgment, according to their works. Those who learn righteousness in that earth of uprightness will have their names written in the book of life that is opened to them at that time. These will inherit the kingdom (dominion) that God prepared for man in the beginning, and they will live forever upon the earth. (Genesis 1:26,28; Psalm 8:5-8; Matthew 25:34; Psalm 37:29) Those who do not learn righteousness will not have their names written in the book of life and will be thrown into the second death, the death for which there is not ransom sacrifice, since “there remains no more a sacrifice for sins.” (Hebrews 10:26) Thus, those who go into the second death die for their own willfull sin, not because of being condemned in Adam. Those who die the second death are dead, cease to have sentiency, for eternity — eternal punishment. — Revelation 20:11-15; Matthew 25:46.
Thus there are two general days of judgment revealed in the scriptures, the first which condemns the world in Adam, and the second day of judgment which provides a release by ransom from the condemnation of the first day of judgment, so that those of mankind, now blinded by Satan, who desire to do so may return to God in that day.
I have written an extended study on the world's two days of judgment, which gives greater details:
http://hereafter.reslight.net/cdj.htmlChristian love,
RonaldHi RD,
The full expression of the Kingdom of Christ on earth begins with the first resurrection. Some natural men will survive the great tribulation so there will be nations to be ruled. They will respond to the ministry of Christ for 1000 years because the dragon will be enchained. The spiritually dead will still be buried and not available for education.Rev 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Then follows the revolt of Ps 2 and Rev 20 and then the second resurrection and the judgement.
Rev20
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
No room for repentance and salvation.
If today you hear his voice harden not your hearts.
Today does not come around for more than a few short years.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 31 2008,22:18) Hi,
The word RANSOM appears twice in the NTMatt 20
28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”1Tim2
5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
Actually, the word “ransom” appears three times in the NT:
Matthew 20:28 – even as the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Mark 10:45 – For the Son of Man also came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
1 Timothy 2:6 – who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times;
The principle behind the ransom, however, is shown many times in the NT.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 31 2008,22:18)
As SOL pointed out a ransom is not paid to to the good but to evildoers and so is it possible that the life of Christ was the price paid for the potential release of all from the kingdom of darkness and that god of this earth?Evidently the above is in reference to something that “SOL” stated, but no reference is given, so I am not sure what “SOL” said.
The statement that “a ransom is not paid to the good but to the evidoers” is true, only if by saying “to” one means the application of the sacrifice, not the sacrifice itself, since the sacrifice itself is offered to God. (Ephesians 5:2) As a result of that sacrifice, the application is then applied “to” sinners.
The term “evildoer” may also be misleading. One would have to qualitfy this by noting hat all of Adam's descendants are counted as “evildoers”, by nature “children of wrath”, “sons of disobedience” (Ephesians 2:1-3) by means of Adam's transgression, so that, as all are condemned in Adam, all will be justified by means of Jesus. Those who put faith in the blood of that sacrifice in this present evil world are counted, reckoned, imputed as justified, and given an accounting of righteousness in the body of the flesh as Adam had it before Adam sinned.
Christian love,
RonaldHi RD,.
The two resurrections are shown in Jn 5 which you quote,24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Those that know the voice of the shepherd and are not dead but asleep will be raised in the first resurrection to the tribunal of Christ of reward for the increase of those ten talents invested in us. They have passed over from death to life.
Then ALL are raised 1000 years later unto judgement.
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 01 2008,00:15)
The Father nor Yehsua had to pay satan anything back.For satan was a liar and a thief from the beginning.
Sometimes many say things in such a way that what is said can be easily misinterpretated by others. I know when I first read Nick's statement it sounded like he was saying that sacrifice was paid to evildoers, but then I thought, perhaps that is not what he meant to say, so decided that he must have meant that the application of the sacrifice, not the sacrifice itself.I think Nick meant that the application of the ransom sacrifice releases all from the present kingdom of darkness, the present evil age, and the influence of the god of this age.
in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God. – 2 Corinthians 4:4, Young's Literal
Believers in this age are delivered from this “present evil age.”
who did give himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of the present evil age, according to the will of God even our Father. — Galatians 1:4, Young's Literal.
They do so by tasting “the powers of the age to come”, having those power applied to them in this age, so that they belong to the light of coming day (Acts 26:8; Ephesians 5:8; 1 Thessalonians 5:5,8; Hebrews 10:25), and not the darkness and corruption (that now exists upon the earth). — 2 Peter 1:4.
During “the age to come”, “the Day approaching” (Hebrews 10:25), Satan will be abyssed, so that he will not be able deceive the heathen who are raised in the last day, the thousand years during which he is abyssed. The present evil age will have passed away, giving way to the new age of righteousness.
Christian love,
RonaldQuote (david @ Feb. 01 2008,01:12)
The bible speaks of a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. Why would God resurrect the unrighteous just to condemn them to death. It appears such a resurrection is for ones who didn't have the opportunity to hear the good news and decide which side they were on.David, I agree that the resurrection of the unjust, provided by means of Jesus' sacrifice, will be for the purpose of englightenment, not just bring them forth from death in order to condemn them again. However, Jesus spoke of those who ilistened to his sayings and who did not obey, that they will be judged in the last day. (John 12:47,48) Thus, even those who have the Gospel presented to them but who do not believe will be there in that day of judgment. Jesus did not come to add a new judgment to that of Adam's, nor should we. All who are dying in Adam will be made alive.
Quote (david @ Feb. 01 2008,01:12)
I believe that during judgement day (the thousand years) these ones will be given the chance to show their true colors.Yes, that thousand years will indeed a time for the heathen to prove whether they will be sheep or if they will be goats, for then they will not under the veil of deception that exists today over the earth. (Isaiah 25:7) Therefore, if they prove themselves in disobedience even after all the favor shown them in that age to come, then they enter into the second death, while the sheep will enter into everlasting life.
Quote (david @ Feb. 01 2008,01:12)
To the wicked one beside him, Jesus said: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”
Will this wicked one be given an opportunity to be educated? This was not a disciple of Jesus, but Jesus could see something in him.ACTS 24:15
“and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”John 5:28, 29: “All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”
REVELATION 20:12-13
“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.”Both those who formerly did good things and those who formerly practiced bad things will be “judged individually according to their deeds.” What deeds?
It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people simply for them to be destroyed. So, at John 5:28, 29a, Jesus was pointing ahead to the resurrection; then, in the remainder of verse 29, he was expressing the outcome after they had been uplifted to human perfection and been put on judgment.Precisely. They are being judged by means of the things written in the books that opened to them in that “last day”, the thousand years of the blessing of the heathen by means of the seed of Abraham.
Christian love,
RonaldHi RD,
You say
“David, I agree that the resurrection of the unjust, provided by means of Jesus' sacrifice, will be for the purpose of englightenment, not just bring them forth from death in order to condemn them again.”Where is this shown in scripture or is it just your opinion?
Is that opinion based on not all having had a chance to hear the gospel?
Should we add our views to scripture because we cannot understand God's ways?” However, Jesus spoke of those who ilistened to his sayings and who did not obey, that they will be judged in the last day. (John 12:47,48) Thus, even those who have the Gospel presented to them but who do not believe will be there in that day of judgment. Jesus did not come to add a new judgment to that of Adam's, nor should we.”
Would you reject the words of John?
Jn3
” 33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
” All who are dying in Adam will be made alive.
Hi,
The ransom price is shown too in scripture.
1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.1 Corinthians 7:23
Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.The life of Christ was the price.
But to whom was it paid?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 01 2008,02:55) Hi David,
You say
“I believe that during judgement day (the thousand years) these ones will be given the chance to show their true colors”Well of course the first resurrection is only of the sons of God and into the 1000yr reign.
The general resurrection of the nations is after that time.[Rev 20]Were you thinking all the men who had ever lived would be living together on this little globe for 1000 years?
Sounds like a bit of a squash.
Yes, the 20 to 40 billions who will have been conceived since Adam's creation will indeed be brought back to this earth during that time. Over a hundred years ago, Charles Taze Russell proved that over 20 billion people could all be fitted into the state of Texas. Of course, that would a squash, if that were the only land on the earth. In reality, large portions of the earth today are unoccupied, and the prophecies show that that deserts will blossom. God can assuredly place all the billions of mankind who have ever lived upon the earth with no problem. We can rest assured that God knows when enough to fill the earth will be reached.
Now the other point concerning the general resurrection as being after that time. I suppose that this is meant to say that the general resurrection of the heathen takes place after the “last day”, the thousand years, and not during the thousand years? One scripture seems to indicate this in Revelation 20:5:
Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead didn't live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.Taken as it is written, it seems to be saying that those who participate in the first resurrection are the “rest of the dead” and that these didn't live until the thousand years were finished. And yet, I don't know of anyone who says that the “first resurrection” takes place after the thousand years have ended. Therefore, many would place the sentence “The rest of the dead didn't live until the thousand years were finished” in parentheses, to indicate that “This is the first resurrection” applies to those being spoken of in Revelation 20:4, and not the “rest of the dead”.
While that would solve one conflict, it would not resolve what Jesus said, that those who listened to his sayings, but who did not obey, would be judged in the last day, not after the last day. (John 12:47,48) As I have shown, both resurrections take place in that last “day”. The first resurrection, therefore, must take place at the beginning of that day, and the resurrection of the heathen would be later during that “last day.”
Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment. — John 5:28,29, Young's Literal.
John 5:28,29 places both kinds of resurrection in a figurative “hour” yet to come, also indicating that both resurrections take place in the same time period.
Thus it appears that this phrase concerning the “the rest of the dead” might be in conflict with what Jesus said in John 5:28,29 and 12:47,48. How is this to be resolved?
Actually, the “rest of the dead” sentence is missing in the earliest Greek manuscripts—Codex Sinaitic and Codex
Alexandrine. (The Codex Vatican #1209 does not contain the Book of Revelation.) These words are also missing in the earliest Syriac and Aramaic manuscripts. This indicates that John probably never wrote those words, but that they were added by later copyists. Indeed, if this sentence was not in the original, complete harmony is restored with the context as well as John 5:28,29 and John 12:47,48.Nevertheless, once one realizes that the “rest of dead” do not actually enter into everlasting life until after the thousand years of Jesus' rulership, then even this statement is true: “The rest of the dead didn't live until the thousand years were finished.” This would, however, have to assume the exception of those who do not so enter into life, and prove themselves incorrigible, who are thrown into the lake of fire, the second death. It is actually after the thousand years that the final rewards are given pertaining to the general resurrection: “These [goats] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” — Matthew 25:46.
Christian love,
Ronald
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