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Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2010,02:39) hi all God is invisible but not Christ,it is trough Christ that God created all things, so there must be a chemistry .
and Adam was created to the likes of God but Eve was created to the likes of Adam
Pierre
Pierre,There is only ONE verse in the Bible when I did a search that says, “God is spirit” and it is here:
Jhn 4:24 “God is Spirit”, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
There are two problems with people building their theology on the Greek in this sentence:
1-Theos = God (ambiguous)
2-pneuma = spirit (ambiguous, neutered-noun but called “Him”)Hebrew has 3 major words used as God; El, Elohim and YHWH and each has a different fucntion. Next the Hebrew word for spirit is ruach and it is identified as a feminine noun.
PROBLEM:
Who do you want to believe? Hebrew or Greek.
Hebrew is older, the language of God's people, and has been better preserved without the debates of which translation is correct….and is specific in the details.
In Hebrew YHWH Elohim has physically appeared to people. Ruach Elohim has not appeared to anyone as “it” is spirit.
In Hebrew you can see the two are distinct and separate from each other.
John 4:24 confirms that “Spirit” is God and we worship in spirit and truth.
The Professor
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2010,15:05) Hi davidbfun. I went to Medellin last year.
I loved the climate and the city was safer than expected.
Stayed with a Kiwi who lives here.Here are some pics:
Very nice pictures t8, but what is a Kiwi? We have a fruit that is called a Kivi, I am not sure how we spell that. If it is spelled Kiwi or Kivi….Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2010,02:39) hi all God is invisible but not Christ,it is trough Christ that God created all things, so there must be a chemistry .
and Adam was created to the likes of God but Eve was created to the likes of Adam
Pierre
Hi Pierre,You bring up something interesting:
Eve was created to the likes of Adam.
How? Adam is a male, Eve is female. How did a female come out of a male. All that we know is that God took one part of Adam's rib…..and voila Eve (mother of all living).
Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Man: Male and female (in the image of God)
God: Male and femaleThe Professor
t8,
By the way, Strong's concordance doesn't list the “gender” of YHWH, only that it is a proper noun. However, Strong's does list Spirit as a feminine noun. So the only thing that is “certain” is Ruwach Elohim, the Spirit of God, is feminine and cannot be a “Father”.
Leaving the YHWH of God “undefined” gender-wise.
Gen 1:27 God created Man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
God = male and female
Man = male and female (image of God)The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 24 2010,19:22) t8, By the way, Strong's concordance doesn't list the “gender” of YHWH, only that it is a proper noun. However, Strong's does list Spirit as a feminine noun. So the only thing that is “certain” is Ruwach Elohim, the Spirit of God, is feminine and cannot be a “Father”.
Leaving the YHWH of God “undefined” gender-wise.
Gen 1:27 God created Man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
God = male and female
Man = male and female (image of God)The Professor
david,
are you stating that in the Old Testament that Jehovah never expressed himself as father?Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 16 2010,18:59) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 17 2010,07:18) God is not made in the image of man. God made man, male and female and in his image.
Perhaps you are imposing the physical form onto God? The physical body is the flesh, and it is not really applicable to God as he is spirit.
He is not a man, doesn't have a body, and he is not finite.I know man is fallen ,but i think it is fair to say that there are things in man that are attributes of God, but male and female is probably not one. Perhaps a better way to look at it is to say that God put some of his attributes in the masculine and some in the feminine.
But to say that God is male or female isn't right IMO.
Yes he is the Father, but that is not because he is male. It is because he is the originator. An earthly father is called father because he is an originator.
Hi t8,That is a good point, “God made man, male and female and in His image.”
God chose to create many things in many ways, but when it came to creating Man, God made it “personal” didn't He? He made us in His image.
Notice how God “said”, “Let Us make Man in Our image…”
And then it happened…..male and female.
Remember how you made a great point about the Angel of the Lord ceasing to appear AFTER Jesus was on the Earth?
Look how LORD God only formed Adam: (image)
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Then the spirit entered into him. (likeness)
Now notice that YHWH Elohim has a physical body whereas Ruach Elohim is only spirit. We, too, have a body and a spirit.
YHWH Elohim formed Adam and thus Adam looks like YHWH who formed him. Even though Adam wasn't pro-created like Jesus, God still fashioned him into the image God wanted for Adam and the Bible tells us that, no?
Eve was fashioned after Adam and taken out of Adam.
I am not saying that God is “Male” OR “Female”. God is saying that God (Elohim) is male AND female.
I try not to put too much of my opinions into my observations. Regardless, my observations should be logical, yes?
Later on you read in the Bible how YHWH (masc) is God (El). And the Bible says that YHWH is “Father” and to me it is not talking “spiritually” in regards to His only begotten son. Spiritually in all other regards, yes, Father to the nation Israel, etc. But by knowing the Bible you know when it is metaphorically speaking of Father and when it is talking literally, and since God has only ONE “only begotten” all other times the term is non-literal.
All the other animals and species came out of water or earth at God's command. Adam was physically formed by God into His image, and then He said it was “VERY GOOD”.
The Professor
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Hello t8,Now to address this statement:
The physical body is the flesh, and it is not really applicable to God as he is spirit.
He is not a man, doesn't have a body, and he is not finite.You state the obvious: He is not man. I agree.
“The physical body is the flesh”: I agree partially, angels have bodies and I don't know what they are made of; ours is fleshly.
“He (God) doesn't have a body.” I disagree.
As you know God (Elohim) has two essences, male and female.
The Female is spirit and doesn't have a body, but I think your statement was referring to YHWH Elohim who does have a body and we “see” it appearing in Genesis 3:8ffToo many people see God only as “Spirit” and fail to observe the occasions which state otherwise.
t8 IF in your studies you could keep these words in-tact without translating you may begin to see what I am telling you:
Elohim = Elohim (don't translate it to “God”)
YHWH = YHWH
Ruach = “Spirit” or Holy Spirit
El = El (don't translate it to “God”)YHWH Elohim = YHWH (masc) is part of Elohim and functions separately and differently than Ruach Elohim
Ruach Elohim = Spirit (fem) is part of Elohim and functions separately and differently than YHWH Elohim
Elohim is the combined essences and can be addressed as God (El) Most High but usually “El” is a “title” used by YHWH.
One truth about YHWH does not negate a truth about Spirit. And both truths make up the entity “Elohim”. So, you must be astute and recognize which of the 4 words are being addressed in a conversation: Elohim, YHWH, Spirit, El
Usually, most people don't know what they are talking about and the posts get heated. Not that the people are stupid but rather “ignorant” (unknowing) of these aspects of “God”.
If you haven't noticed the people aren't able to rebutt this “Model” of God because every facet is backed up by Scripture. So, they must resort to name calling and character assassinations.
At best they attack a word in Scripture and say that the word doesn't really mean what is written. I give the complete verse it is up to them to believe what is written.
With you t8 it is different and that is why I explained further. As a “Mod” no one could refute this “wisdom” as it is strictly from the Bible. There is no confusion or debates as it is clear by the “position” which each does.
YHWH = God, Father, King, Priest, Prophet (Creator, Savior)
Spirit = YHWH's spirit (he doesn't control his own, Spirit does) & Elohim's Spirit (notice she is El's Spirit (local-7) and Elohim's Spirit (omnipresent))
Fear of YHWH
Wisdom
Counsel
Power (Strength) = behind creation
Knowledge
UnderstandingNotice that when you want something “invisible” you must go to “Spirit”? We often erroneously ask from “God” (vague) because of being “unaware” of YHWH's functions and Spirit's functions.
We are misled by translators because God is “He” and therefore anything dealing with the “She” is mislabeled “He”.
Look at the Hebrew word “ruach” and you will see that it is a noun, feminine.
Rather than argue WHY it is that way, accept it. When you do your eyes begin to open to see how this “model” fits into the Bible and the Bible doesn't have to fit into your theology.
These words are Biblical words, not David's words.
The concepts I present are straight from the Bible, that is why the people can't refute them.
t8 I would hope to have you apply this model for a month and see if what I am saying isn't true.
Everyone else wants to use the Church “fathers” to build their foundation, or Church doctrines. Try the Bible and the Hebrew words (versus Greek) and see how it surpasses all others.
Greek, because it is unable to convey the two Hebrew words Elohim and El and place “Spirit” as a neuter but translate it as “He”, so no one would be able to agree on anything. In your years here I bet you'll see thousands of hours wasted on arguing the Greek and hardly an hour for Hebrew.
And if you don't have the “right” God of the Bible, which the Greek cannot represent, why debate someone using “Greek”?
Also, you probably noticed that Greek “Scholars” get puffed up and try to lord it over people.
In God's Love and mine,
David
I dont believe that God can be limited to what Spiritual nor by whats Physical.there were many times of wars in the old testament,
in one such occassion i believe a Prophet open
the eyes of the enemy to show them they were surrouded by angels.Whats spiritual and whats Physical interwine alot.
Angels are said to be beings of great power, yet they come has humble visitors, who dress and look like us. “suppously” we see examples in the bible where these angels look like common folks or came as visitors, who ate, and talked and what not.
Yet these angels had the power to limit themselves in to a common humanistic body. Yet not the fleshly body.There is a power in being able to choose to limit yourself.
When it comes to Adam he live in a perfected time, where he and eve were blameless and innocent.
That image was destroyed a long time ago, and its almost impossible to compare the First Adam to who God is.But the Second Adam, the one who came, through That Man, we can know how God is like. For he is the IMAGE of the Invisible God, the uknowable God, the almighty. The one who dwells in a light were no other can approach.
By that image, i would describe God, not solely on Adam and Eve, though at a time of perfection, chose the flawed way.
Again, God created Adam in his image, but in LIKENESS. IT never says that Adam is the exact image of God.
Yet Jesus is said to be THE image of God.
I agree that the holy spirit is omnipresent.
I also agree that YHWH has a throne, which i believe represents his totality, His Almighty, the unknowable things about him.
Even the Cherbuims hide there presence with their wings, while in his presence in front of the throne.This is where i believe that God true nature, True power is, but its unknowable, becase such things would kill us.
just like having all knowldege would destroy the human brain.
Eve was never said to be fashioned to be like Adam. Adam had no idea that he was in need of a woman. Since it was a time that Women didnt exist, its possible to assume that Adam could never imagine how a woman look like. And now that they do exist in the creation of Eve, we KNOW FOR SURE THAT MEN AND WOMEN ARE VERY DIFFERENT.
but in ECHAD, in ONE flesh, they become one.
Adam was physically formed out of the dust of the earth by God.
Anyways, i like your hebrew anaysis, i study hebrew as well, and i have also noticed that greek doesnt do the bible any good because there are so many meaning (like english) to one word.
where hebrew we do not have that problem, the words is very distinct and specfic.
I think your model would work better if Jesus was used as the example rather than Adam,
Becuase it also works in the same way because he had the Holy Spirit,
but since most of it is in greek, i understand why ur using Adam.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 25 2010,09:32) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 24 2010,19:22) t8, By the way, Strong's concordance doesn't list the “gender” of YHWH, only that it is a proper noun. However, Strong's does list Spirit as a feminine noun. So the only thing that is “certain” is Ruwach Elohim, the Spirit of God, is feminine and cannot be a “Father”.
Leaving the YHWH of God “undefined” gender-wise.
Gen 1:27 God created Man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
God = male and female
Man = male and female (image of God)The Professor
david,
are you stating that in the Old Testament that Jehovah never expressed himself as father?
Dennison,No I am not saying that. I was only going one step at a time. What I thought was “odd” was that YHWH was unidentified by “gender”.
Personally, I think YHWH is the male essence of Elohim and is: God (El), Father, Priest, Prophet, King in that order.
There are some here that want to believe, contrary to what is written, that Spirit (noun, feminine) is YHWH (noun, “masculine”).
Obviously only YHWH could be “Father”, no?
The Professor
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