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Hi TT,
The law was a schoolmaster.
It brought out the power of sin in the flesh.
Moses was long dead and buried when Paul sought freedom from that fleshthethinker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Reader be aware BEWAREQuote For sin shall not have power over you, for you are not under the law (Moses) but under grace (Rom. 6:14) Rom 6:14 for sin over you shall not have lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace.
Quote For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law (Moses) were at work in our members to bear fruit to death (7:5) Rom 7:5 for when we were in the flesh, the passions of the sins, that are through the law, were working in our members, to bear fruit to the death;
Quote But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment (Moses) produced in me all manner of evil desire (7:8) Quote And the commandment (Moses), which was ordained o life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment (Moses) deceived me, and by it killed me(7:11) Rom 7:11 for the sin, having received an opportunity, through the command, did deceive me, and through it did slay me ;
You are viewing two versions of scripture. The one quoted is mans version and contains the addition to God's word “(Moses)” throughout.
The version in italics is taken from Young's Literal Translation of God's word.
The first technique is commonly referred to as –
EISEGESIS
an interpretation, esp. of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text. (Dictionary.Com)
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 05 2009,17:02) Quote “THE LAW ENTERED THAT SIN MIGHT INCREASE” What is your reply to this inspired and infallible statement? thinker
My reply to this inspired and infallible statement is a big AMEN!
Quote Moreover, the law (Moses) entered that sin might increase (Rom. 5:21) My reply to this uninspired, fallible statement is HOGWASH
EISEGESIS
the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary)
Hi,
Moses was just a servant and the law was not of him.Psalm 105:26
He sent Moses His servant,And Aaron, whom He had chosen.Hebrews 3:5
Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;Revelation 15:3
And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, ” Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty;Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!Seeking said:
Quote My reply to this uninspired, fallible statement is HOGWASH EISEGESIS
the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary)
Seeking,
You say “hogwash” and “eisegesis”? Then answer this. Paul said,Quote For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were AROUSED BY THE LAW were at work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death (Rom, 7:5) and,
Quote For these are the two covenants; the one from Mount Sinai which GIVES BIRTH TO BONDAGE (Gal. 4:24) Paul said that the law “aroused” the sinful passions within him. He said also the law “gives birth to bondage.” Please explain these things without any eisegesis please. I am beginning to wonder if you really understand the gospel. The law or Moses which was Israel's first husband had to die so she could be free to be married to Christ. Moses is the “old man” that was crucified with Christ.
thinker
thethinker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Seeking,
You say “hogwash” and “eisegesis”? Then answer this. Paul said,Quote For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were AROUSED BY THE LAW were at work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death (Rom, 7:5) and,
Quote For these are the two covenants; the one from Mount Sinai which GIVES BIRTH TO BONDAGE (Gal. 4:24) Paul said that the law “aroused” the sinful passions within him.
Nothing to explain. Scripture explains itself. It is your unbiblical blaming of Moses acting as God's servant that is
ridiculous.You cite a passage and deny what is states, “Paul said that
the law “aroused” the sinful passions within him
You say “Moses” aroused the sinful passions within him. Paul would have been blessed to have you around to enlighten him.
Perhaps you would have some additions to his “Faith Alone” gospel too. By the way, still waiting to hear your rendition on that.Quote He said also the law “gives birth to bondage.” Please explain these things without any eisegesis please. OK, here goes – the law “gives birth to bondage Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Quote I am beginning to wonder if you really understand the gospel. Wonder no longer! I understand the gospel very well.
Quote The law or Moses which was Israel's first husband had to die so she could be free to be married to Christ.
Moses is the “old man” that was crucified with Christ.These man made concoctions of yours need not be understood or entertained to know the truth of the gospel.
EISEGESIS
the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary)
IS NOT THE GOSPEL
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2009,05:31) Hi TJ,
You say
“The cross afords carnal man the licence to claim salvation through the sacrafice of Gods only begotton son Jesus….This claim is legitmised through repentance and embracing of the law…. “Where is this new way of salvation written?
Is it shown in ACTS?
Greetings Nick…..The scripture is replete with the Good news regarding salvation….Not withstanding any scriptual verse that can be taken out of context or misinterpreted…Let us not forget the sacrafice that justifies all to seek salvation through the blood….God wants no one to perish but ALL to attain eternal life….And it is the cross that makes that possible…This is why ..If we go before the father as creatures that are poor in spirit and in Jesus'name we seek mercy and forgiveness…Just as thief who was poor in spirit was humble and contrite believed….salvation is attainable…
God is love and he is mercifull….and yes he will meet out judgement on the un repentent…Hi TJ,
The good thief died under the old covenant as Jesus had yet to die.
We should rather obey the commands of Jesus as it is now the new covenant.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2009,08:53) Hi TJ,
The good thief died under the old covenant as Jesus had yet to die.
We should rather obey the commands of Jesus as it is now the new covenant.
Nick,
Jesus' words were old covenant. Paul was the administrator of the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3).thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 05 2009,21:45) 942767 said: Quote And so, it is not a matter of Moses being dead, but Jesus the Son of the living God who was born of a woman under the law of Moses having fulflled the law died once unto sin, and having been raised from the dead by the Spirit of God, death has no more dominion over him. Marty,
It is a matter of Moses being dead. Paul said,Quote For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. The “death” of the Jewish saints was a metaphor for their being released from the law. So let's paraphrase the verse you gave according to this sense
Quote Therefore, my brethren, you have also been released from the law by the body of Christ, that you may be married to another, to Him who was raised from the dead…..But now we have been delivered from the law…. So it was a matter of Moses dying for by his death they were freed to be married to another which is Christ. Their “death” was Paul's way of saying that they had been set free from the law. Paul said, “But now we have been delivered from the law.”
Paul said this also in chapter 6
Quote For he who has died hav been freed from sin .
The old man represented Moses who died to them. And their death represented their being set free from the law in order that they might be married to Christ. The sin nature has not been put to death. Paul said elsewhere that we have to crucify the flesh ourselves. Their “death” simply meant that were were no longer under the law.
thinker
Hi thethinker:The Law continued in force long after Moses died. What scripture supports that he was Israel's husband? His death had no bearing on Israel being released from the law.
Paul states:
Quote Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; Does the following scripture mean anything to you?
Quote Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: Love in Christ,
Martythethinker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Jesus' words were old covenant. Paul was the administrator of the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3). Heb 9:14-15 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant
Heb 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,
Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenantn in my blood.1Co 11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” [/I]
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of
the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.I see only two covenants in scripture. The first was of the letter and involved the blood of bulls and goats, birds, etc.
Jesus did away with it and introduced the “New Covenant” of the Spirit which was “in His Blood.” Paul spoke of it in the Corinthian letter ch.11 mentioned above. It is the one Paul is the minister of in the 2Cor.3:6 passage.The alternative has been introduced which is three covenants:
1) Old
2) Introduced by Jesus
3) Ministered by PaulThree covenants is not my understanding.
Seeking
Quote (SEEKING @ Mar. 07 2009,00:47) Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 05 2009,21:14) Quote Seeking,
You say “hogwash” and “eisegesis”? Then answer this. Paul said,Quote For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were AROUSED BY THE LAW were at work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death (Rom, 7:5) and,
Quote For these are the two covenants; the one from Mount Sinai which GIVES BIRTH TO BONDAGE (Gal. 4:24) Paul said that the law “aroused” the sinful passions within him.
Nothing to explain. Scripture explains itself. It is your unbiblical blaming of Moses acting as God's servant that is
ridiculous.You cite a passage and deny what is states, “Paul said that
the law “aroused” the sinful passions within him
You say “Moses” aroused the sinful passions within him. Paul would have been blessed to have you around to enlighten him.
Perhaps you would have some additions to his “Faith Alone” gospel too. By the way, still waiting to hear your rendition on that.Quote He said also the law “gives birth to bondage.” Please explain these things without any eisegesis please. OK, here goes – the law “gives birth to bondage Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Quote I am beginning to wonder if you really understand the gospel. Wonder no longer! I understand the gospel very well.
Quote The law or Moses which was Israel's first husband had to die so she could be free to be married to Christ.
Moses is the “old man” that was crucified with Christ.These man made concoctions of yours need not be understood or entertained to know the truth of the gospel.
EISEGESIS
the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary)
IS NOT THE GOSPEL
Seeking
Your post in its entirety is unintelligible. Please explain your distinction between the old and new covenants. And when giving your explanation keep in mind that you are an incurable sinner.Thanks,
thinkerSeeking said:
Quote I see only two covenants in scripture. The first was of the letter and involved the blood of bulls and goats, birds, etc.
Jesus did away with it and introduced the “New Covenant” of the Spirit which was “in His Blood.” Paul spoke of it in the Corinthian letter ch.11 mentioned above. It is the one Paul is the minister of in the 2Cor.3:6 passage.The alternative has been introduced which is three covenants:
The above statement by you is what I have said all along. The first covenant was according to the letter, baptism and all that Israel stuff. The second covenant is according to the spirit of the law.
Prove that I have introduced a third covenant or stfu!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 09 2009,10:44) Quote Seeking
Your post in its entirety is unintelligible.Should one other person find it unintelligible and so post, I will attempt clarification.
Quote Please explain your distinction between the old and new covenants. FIRST COVENANT
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Heb 9:1-2 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place
Heb 9:8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing
Heb 9:9-10 (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
(These washings [baptisms] were the ones Jesus was continually chastised by the Pharisees for not keeping)
NEW COVENANT (Second)
Heb 9:11-12 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you isthe new covenant in my blood.
1Co 11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant
in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”1) Old Covenant – Mosiac – John's Baptism
2) New Covennat – Christ – Baptism into HimHear Paul on the two baptisms:
Act 19:3-5 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Quote The above statement by you is what I have said all along. Not true. You have said Jesus spoke relating to a covenant of “old things” and Paul introduced the “Faith Alone” Gospel.
You use this passage in which Paul states he is a minister of the “New Covenant” scripture says JESUS INTRODUCED to say this was Paul's new covenant –2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of
the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.So, if we do the math –
1) Old – Mosiac – veil in place – ceremonial washigs, blood of
bulls and goats, etc.2) New Covenant Introduced by Jesus – veil torn down –
baptism into Christ – Christ's blood3) Ministered by Paul – the one you introduce us to
Seeking
thethinker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Prove that I have introduced a third covenant or stfu! [quote=thethinker,Mar. 06 2009,17:04]
Jesus' words were old covenant. Paul was the administrator of the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3).The Bible speaks of two. Neither are introduced by Paul as you state above. So it is PROVEN that you introduce a third.
FIRST COVENANT
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Heb 9:1-2 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place
Heb 9:8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing
Heb 9:9-10 (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
(These washings [baptisms] were the ones Jesus was continually chastised by the Pharisees for not keeping)
NEW COVENANT (Second)
Heb 9:11-12 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,Quote or stfu! Is this part of Paul's faith alone covenant? Have you never read –
Eph 4:29-30 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption
Eph 5:2-6 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints.
Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.And you would presume to be a teacher! Shame!!
Seeking
Seeking and thinker! Look in the Covenant post you will find more then two Covenants. All, New Testaments and Old Testaments
Peace amd Love Irene.
Thinker said:
Quote or stfu! Seeking replied:
Quote Is this part of Paul's faith alone covenant? Have you never read – Eph 4:29-30 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption
Eph 5:2-6 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints.
Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.And you would presume to be a teacher! Shame!!
Seeking,
Corrupt communication is more than stfu. Corrupt communication occurs also when falsehoods are spoken. Read the context,Quote Therefore, putting away lying…. again,
Quote You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor…. I have never spoke of a third covenant. I haven't said anything that even remotely infers a third covenant. I have spoken only of the letter of the law (the old) versus the spirit of the law (the new). Rather than seek clarification and promote understanding you opt to hurl a false charge. There have been times when I have felt like accusing you of denying God's new covenant program. But I bite my tongue.
You level a false charge and would presume to be a teacher! Shame!!
However, I will apologize for responding in kind. There is no excuse for my using vulgar language. Love is patient.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 09 2009,17:01) Quote Seeking,
Corrupt communication is more than stfu. Corrupt communication occurs also when falsehoods are spoken. Read the context,Quote I have never spoke of a third covenant. I haven't said anything that even remotely infers a third covenant. Quote QUOTE] thethinker,Mar. wrote:Jesus' words were old covenant. Paul was the administrator of the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3).
You said – Paul was the administrator of the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3).
This is a direct contradiction of scripture which states Jesus is the mediator of the “New Covenant.”
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Scripture is plain that it speaks of the Mosiac covenant when it refers to an old covenant –
Heb 9:1-2 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place
Those are the TWO basic covenants being discussed in Hebrews as the OLD and the NEW.
For you to make your statement, ]Paul was the administrator of the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3).
Is to do more than “infer” a third.
Quote You level a false charge and would presume to be a teacher! There is no false charge. And, yes, when you attribute the “New Covenant” to Paul when scripture attributes it to Jesus, you err . When you state, Jesus' words were old covenant.
you further contradict scripture and err.Quote There have been times when I have felt like accusing you of denying God's new covenant program. But I bite my tongue. You did better than that,
Quote To All,
Our brother Seeking is starting to fall apart. He can't even give a coherent reply nowYou said, There is no excuse for my using vulgar language.
You are right! Why spend a whole post attempting to justify yourself?
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance
Thinker wrote:
Quote Paul was the administrator of the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3). Seeking replied:
Quote This is a direct contradiction of scripture which states Jesus is the mediator of the “New Covenant.” I said that Paul was the administrator of the new covenant. I did NOT say that he was the mediator of the new covenant. Paul himself said that he and his fellow apostles were the administrators of the new covenant
Quote The qualification WE have comes from God; it is he who has qualified US to dispense his new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6, NEB) Moses was the mediator of the old covenant. But God qualified the Levites to administer it, that is, to dispense it. So Christ is the mediator of the new covenant and God qualified the Apostles to administer it. And according to Paul they were qualified by God to administer the new covenant according to the spirit of the law and not according to the letter of the law.
Quote He has made us compotent as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter KILLS, but the Spirit gives LIFE (NIV) The letter of the law has passed away for the letter “kills.” Moses represents the letter of the law and Christ represents the spirit of the law. This is why Israel's first husband, which was Moses had to die. Israel's “old man” died.
thinker
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