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Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 04 2009,08:33) To all,
The Scriptures do not say that our sin nature was put to death. It says that we are to do this ourselves. Therefore, the “old man” in Romans 6 cannot be our sin nature because that man was crucified with Christ. We don't do this ourselves.Again, the “old man” in Romans 6 was Israel's first husband (Moses, the law).
thinker
Hi thethinker:We are crucified with Christ as an act of our will by being baptized in water thereby showing that we have died unto sin. We are raised again from the dead by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus was raised from the dead by the Spirit of God.
Quote Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.Quote Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Mar. 05 2009,09:40) Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 04 2009,08:33) To all,
The Scriptures do not say that our sin nature was put to death. It says that we are to do this ourselves. Therefore, the “old man” in Romans 6 cannot be our sin nature because that man was crucified with Christ. We don't do this ourselves.Again, the “old man” in Romans 6 was Israel's first husband (Moses, the law).
thinker
Hi thethinker:We are crucified with Christ as an act of our will by being baptized in water thereby showing that we have died unto sin. We are raised again from the dead by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus was raised from the dead by the Spirit of God.
Quote Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.Quote Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
I believe that you are taking Paul's statements out of their larger context. First, Paul is speaking to Jewish Christians (7:1). Second, Paul was saying that their old manner of life under Moses was crucified and not their “sin nature.” Your treatment of the text does not match with human experience. But more importantly you have no exegetical grounds for what you say.In chapter 7 Paul explained the principles he laid down in chapter 6. He said that if the husband be dead the woman is free to marry again. The “husband” was Moses, that is, the law, and the “woman” was Israel.
The Gentiles were never under Moses. And the sin nature was not put to death with Christ. Paul said “I die daily.”
thinker
thethinker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote I believe that you are taking Paul's statements out of their larger context. First, Paul is speaking to Jewish Christians (7:1). Thinker,
You impose this statement frequently. Can you expand on it.
Do you mean to imply that anything spoken to a Jewish Christian or prostelyte does not have application for us?You speak of the death of the “old man” which is in the context Marty posted and discussed. Yet you go on to say
he has no exegetical foundation for his conclusions.Paul spoke to the end result of the death of the “old man”
stating as follows –Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
So you believe Pauls point was, The “husband” was Moses, that is, the law, and the “woman” was Israel. and not that
“henceforth we should not serve sin.”I agree with Marty and Paul. His point is, “henceforth we should not serve sin.” He began that point in 6:1 by stating –
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
He continues his thought and analogy for them –
Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
Rom 6:7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.Release of enslavement to sin is his point – Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
Oh, I know, of course the ESV and NIV are inaccurate – it should be old man. Obviously their understanding of “old man”
was “old self.” I realize yours is about husband Moses, law and woman Israel.You would say too, that really none of this pertains to us anyway correct? Or is that not what this is meant to say,
The Gentiles were never under Moses. And the sin nature was not put to death with Christ?You mentioned that Paul said he died daily. He also said –
Gal 2:20 YLT with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh–in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;
I note he says “have been crucified” perfect, passive, indicative.
That he relates during a time and to a people he was encouraging to remain true to the gospel he preached.
So, Romans may not apply to us as non-Jews but what hope we have as Christians – I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
Faith alone – I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Seeking
Hi thethinker:
You say:
Quote In chapter 7 Paul explained the principles he laid down in chapter 6. He said that if the husband be dead the woman is free to marry again. The “husband” was Moses, that is, the law, and the “woman” was Israel. But this is what Paul states:
Quote Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. And so, it is not a matter of Moses being dead, but Jesus the Son of the living God who was born of a woman under the law of Moses having fulflled the law died once unto sin, and having been raised from the dead by the Spirit of God, death has no more dominion over him.
And as you have acknowledged elsewhere all whether Jew or Gentile have transgressed God's law, and therefore, although we the gentile nations were never the law, we are guilty as charged. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
And so, all whether Jew or gentile are saved by Faith, belieivng what God has done for us in paying the judgment that was against us because of having transgressed his eternal law, must come to God with a repentant heart through Jesus Christ. The scripture states that all must be born again, and we are born again when we are raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus was raised from the dead when he died unto sin and God declared him not guilty by the resurrection from the dead.
Water baptisim symbolizes our dying unto sin and being raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God unto the newness of life. However, crucifying the flesh is a daily thing. As you say, the Apostle Paul states that he dies daily.
Quote Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.Love in Christ,
Marty942767 said:
Quote And so, it is not a matter of Moses being dead, but Jesus the Son of the living God who was born of a woman under the law of Moses having fulflled the law died once unto sin, and having been raised from the dead by the Spirit of God, death has no more dominion over him. Marty,
It is a matter of Moses being dead. Paul said,Quote For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. The “death” of the Jewish saints was a metaphor for their being released from the law. So let's paraphrase the verse you gave according to this sense
Quote Therefore, my brethren, you have also been released from the law by the body of Christ, that you may be married to another, to Him who was raised from the dead…..But now we have been delivered from the law…. So it was a matter of Moses dying for by his death they were freed to be married to another which is Christ. Their “death” was Paul's way of saying that they had been set free from the law. Paul said, “But now we have been delivered from the law.”
Paul said this also in chapter 6
Quote For he who has died hav been freed from sin .
The old man represented Moses who died to them. And their death represented their being set free from the law in order that they might be married to Christ. The sin nature has not been put to death. Paul said elsewhere that we have to crucify the flesh ourselves. Their “death” simply meant that were were no longer under the law.
thinker
Hi TT,
There is no older man than ADAM.
Gentiles never were under the Law.
They never were baptised into Moses.1Cor10
Hello all,
Paul has spoken elsewhere about victory over the “old man.”
Eph 4:20-23 But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
How does the believer do that? Is it through hard work and self determination? Is it something done through hard work and daily commitment? Or, is it in simple submission to God remembering the symbolic changing of our dress and allowing Him to renew our minds?
Consider – Gal 3:27 NSV For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. and You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal.3:27 NIV).
Put off the old man, put on Christ, clothe yourself with Jesus. Using the “boot strap” method you will fail. You cannot pull yourself up, but –
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. (Rom.8:13-14)
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
Let Him transform your mind – Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will. (Rom.12:2)
Be blessed put on Christ,
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote Paul has spoken elsewhere about victory over the “old man.”Eph 4:20-23 But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; How does the believer do that? Is it through hard work and self determination? Is it something done through hard work and daily commitment? Or, is it in simple submission to God remembering the symbolic changing of our dress and allowing Him to renew our minds?
Seeking,
The construction in the Greek indicates that it is the deeds that were associated with the old man that they had to put off and not the old man himself. The old man was crucified WITH Christ once for all (Rom. 6). That man was Moses. According to Romans 7 Moses incited God's people to sin. The only remedy for this was the death of Moses. So the next order of business for them was to put off the deeds of Moses which incited them to sin. The putting off of the deeds of Moses is what Ephesians 4 is all about.thinker
Hi TT,
You say
“According to Romans 7 Moses incited God's people to sin. The only remedy for this was the death of Moses.”How odd it is that folk let their theories lead them to ridiculous places but they do not notice and still hold their theories. Like the frog in water warmed to the boil?
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 05 2009,09:34) Seeking said: Quote Paul has spoken elsewhere about victory over the “old man.”Eph 4:20-23 But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; How does the believer do that? Is it through hard work and self determination? Is it something done through hard work and daily commitment? Or, is it in simple submission to God remembering the symbolic changing of our dress and allowing Him to renew our minds?
Seeking,
The construction in the Greek indicates that it is the deeds that were associated with the old man that they had to put off and not the old man himself. The old man was crucified WITH Christ once for all (Rom. 6). That man was Moses. According to Romans 7 Moses incited God's people to sin. The only remedy for this was the death of Moses. So the next order of business for them was to put off the deeds of Moses which incited them to sin. The putting off of the deeds of Moses is what Ephesians 4 is all about.thinker
So the “old man” was crucified, his “deedswere just lingering on. I would have to hold to if you kill the deeds you killl the old man and if the old man was killed the deeds died with him.Once again we will see things differently.
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 05 2009,09:34) Quote So the next order of business for them was to put off the deeds of Moses which incited them to sin. You have the “fruit” mixed up with the “root.” The deeds do not entice them. It is because they were enticed that the “fruit” of the enticement, “deeds” manifested.
Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Eph 4:19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.
Callous, sensual, greedy, impurity, are the fruit not the root.
The truth of the matter is –
Gal 2:20 YLT with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh–in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;
I note he says “have been crucified” perfect, passive, indicative.
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
Faith alone – I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2009,11:06) Hi TT,
You say
“According to Romans 7 Moses incited God's people to sin. The only remedy for this was the death of Moses.”How odd it is that folk let their theories lead them to ridiculous places but they do not notice and still hold their theories. Like the frog in water warmed to the boil?
Nick,I had an instructor once who was accustomed to saying,
“you can't get that out of there with a jack-hammer.”Using the “reasoning”, if Moses “enticed” them to sin by giving the law, I guess it would be reasonable to say God enticed them to sin since He gave the law to Moses.
But we know better than that, I HOPE!
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Blessings,
Seeking
Hi S,
The law was not given to all men.
Sin in the flesh became activated by the Law.
Flesh is of earth and mudman returns to the dust whence he came.
But the plan of God was to draw out the awareness of man's helplessness and need to seek His grace.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2009,14:33) Hi S,
The law was not given to all men.
Sin in the flesh became activated by the Law.
Flesh is of earth and mudman returns to the dust whence he came.
But the plan of God was to draw out the awareness of man's helplessness and need to seek His grace.
Nick,Is this in response to my comments on interpretation of Rom.7:1ff?
I don't get it. Without law there is no sin imputed or counted.
(Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.)Even though the law is not given to me specifically, am I not accountable to obey it? Is that not why the declaration “all have sinned” was made?
And yes, once declared a sinner, grace and the shed blood of Jesus is my only out.
But what does all that, while true, have to do with the comments regarding Romans seven?
Just wondering.
Hi S,
Rom3
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The OT LAW was never given to the gentiles-only to the Jews.
This is the natural fate of gentiles
Rom2
11For there is no respect of persons with God.12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
That is why the way of Jesus is so vital for us, a people without hope.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2009,15:42) Quote The OT LAW was never given to the gentiles-only to the Jews. Rom 2:14-15 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
They are still held accountable for violating the principles of the law, are they not?
Rom 2:26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
But the uncircumcised to whom the law was not given did not keep the precepts of the law, did they?
Thus it could be said – “all have sinned.”
I trust this is not a response to my comments regarding Romans seven and you are just choosing to ignore me in that regard.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 06 2009,05:06) Hi TT,
You say
“According to Romans 7 Moses incited God's people to sin. The only remedy for this was the death of Moses.”How odd it is that folk let their theories lead them to ridiculous places but they do not notice and still hold their theories. Like the frog in water warmed to the boil?
Nick,
Paul saidQuote For sin shall not have power over you, for you are not under the law (Moses) but under grace (Rom. 6:14) and,
Quote For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law (Moses) were at work in our members to bear fruit to death (7:5) and,
Quote But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment (Moses) produced in me all manner of evil desire (7:8) and,
Quote And the commandment (Moses), which was ordained o life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment (Moses) deceived me, and by it killed me(7:11) What is your reply Nick? Sure looks to me like the law (Moses) was not Israel's friend!
thinker
Seeking said:
Quote Using the “reasoning”, if Moses “enticed” them to sin by giving the law, I guess it would be reasonable to say God enticed them to sin since He gave the law to Moses.
Seeking,
You're catching on bro! Paul said exactly what you said bro!Quote Moreover, the law (Moses) entered that sin might increase (Rom. 5:21) The law was not given to show Paul how good he thought he was. It was given to show him to how wretched he really was so he would call upon Christ. The law was given Paul to increase his sin so he would become tired of it.
“THE LAW ENTERED THAT SIN MIGHT INCREASE” What is your reply to this inspired and infallible statement?
thinker
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