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Heaven Net Friends,
Tradition has told us that we have a sinful nature which is called the “old man” and that this man has been crucified with Christ. We have been taught that each one of us has an “old man” that was crucified with Christ.
I believed this for a long time but have now come to reject this teaching. The “old man” was Israel's first husband which was Moses. When Paul said that “our” old man has been crucified with Christ he was speaking to Jewish Christians (Rom. 7:1). He said that they had been delivered from the law by the death of their first husband,
Quote Or do you not know brethren (…for I am speaking to those who know the law), how that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she shall be called an adultress; but if her husband be dead, she id free from that law, so that she is no adultress, though she be married to another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God (Rom. 7:1-4) Israel was married to the law, that is to Moses. Then she was set free from the law (Moses) so that she could be free to be married to Christ. So the “old man” is not my personal sin nature or your personal sin nature. Paul did not teach that our “old man” or sin nature had been crucified with Christ. Paul meant that Israel's “old man” which was the law and Moses had been crucified with Christ.
Therefore, the “old man” references had nothing to do with Gentile Christians. Paul explicitly said that he was speaking to those who “know the law” ,i.e., Israelites. He meant that Moses died to them and that they died to Moses. That is, the law died to them and they died to the law.
I know that some of you may be seething for my saying these things. But many Christians have been misguided into thinking that their supposed “sinful nature” was put to death and they end up feeling defeated because their lives don't match up with it. But we are not told anywhere in Scripture that our sinful natures were put to death. The Scripture says that it was Israel's first husband was put to death.
cordially,
thethinkerQuote (thethinker @ Feb. 27 2009,08:43) I know that some of you may be seething for my saying these things. But many Christians have been misguided into thinking that their supposed “sinful nature” was put to death and they end up feeling defeated because their lives don't match up with it.
Thinker,I hasten to endorse your admonition that we be aware of who various commands, concepts, laws, etc. are directed to when reading and considering the word lest we misapply or misunderstand.
There is comfort, challenge, and hope in these scriptures
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. (Gal.5:16-25)
That must be kept in balance with Paul's other words –
Rom 7:15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
But even Paul lost sight, momentarily of His source of salvation. Rather than dwell there, he came to his senses and found his victory.
Rom 7:24-25 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Rom 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Words true for eternity! No condemnation, set free.
Even in my weak times.There is an old saying that comes to mind that goes something like, ” Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.” There is to much wisdom in things like “The Sermon On The Mount, Proverbs, etal. for me to disregard them because they were not directed to me.
A statement may not be directed to me, but I will respond regardless. If I hear the fella in a foxhole next to me yell to his companion, “Duck, grenade” I”M DUCKING.
There can be purpose for us in words to others, I believe –
Rom 15:4 For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
Seeking
thethinker
The bride or the church in the wilderness was the nation Israel. The bridegroom was the son of God, he made a covenant with the bride/Israel; we call it the “law of Moses”. But the law did not come from Moses, it came from God.
The bride/Israel not only kept not the covenant, but she killed her husband. Now the husband is free to take on a new bride, the saints.2Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
At baptism is were a Christian leaves the “old man” behind, and becomes a new creature.
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;It is God's Holy Spirit that creates a new man in us.
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.Georg
Hi TT,
Rom6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
The OLD MAN is the BODY OF SIN.
Hi tt,
Col3
8But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.9Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
We will put on the new heavenly body alike to Christ.
We should live now as if it has happened and we are seated with Christ.No longer controlled by the body of earthly origin and sin which resides there.[rom7]
1Cor15
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 28 2009,03:36) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 27 2009,08:43) I know that some of you may be seething for my saying these things. But many Christians have been misguided into thinking that their supposed “sinful nature” was put to death and they end up feeling defeated because their lives don't match up with it.
Thinker,I hasten to endorse your admonition that we be aware of who various commands, concepts, laws, etc. are directed to when reading and considering the word lest we misapply or misunderstand.
There is comfort, challenge, and hope in these scriptures
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. (Gal.5:16-25)
That must be kept in balance with Paul's other words –
Rom 7:15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
But even Paul lost sight, momentarily of His source of salvation. Rather than dwell there, he came to his senses and found his victory.
Rom 7:24-25 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Rom 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Words true for eternity! No condemnation, set free.
Even in my weak times.There is an old saying that comes to mind that goes something like, ” Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.” There is to much wisdom in things like “The Sermon On The Mount, Proverbs, etal. for me to disregard them because they were not directed to me.
A statement may not be directed to me, but I will respond regardless. If I hear the fella in a foxhole next to me yell to his companion, “Duck, grenade” I”M DUCKING.
There can be purpose for us in words to others, I believe –
Rom 15:4 For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
Seeking
Seeking,
The “flesh” of Galatians 5 is not the “old man” of Romans 6. The “flesh” in Galatians 5 is indeed the sinful nature. All men have a sinful nature. But the “old man” was a metaphor for Moses or the Mosaic code. The “old man” therefore was the law to which Israel was married. The law had been nailled to the cross,Quote And you having been dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:13-15) It clearly says that the written code was put to death in Christ. That written code was Moses, Israel's first husband.
thinker
Cindy said:
Quote At baptism is were a Christian leaves the “old man” behind, and becomes a new creature. Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;Cindy,
The old man or “former conversation” was the Jewish way of life under the law of Moses. Ephesians was addressed to Jewish Christians. Paul referred to his former conversation before Agrippa,Quote My manner of conversation from my youth, which was spent from the beginning among my own nation at Jerusalem all the Jews know. They knew me from the first, if they were willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee (Acts 26:4-5) Paul's “former conversation” was his previous manner of life as a Pharisee under the Mosaic code. This was Paul's “old man.”
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2009,06:06) Hi TT,
Rom6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
The OLD MAN is the BODY OF SIN.
Nick,
First, Paul was addressing Jewish Christians specifically as I have already proved (Rom. 7:1).Second, Paul did not say that the old man was the body of sin. He said that the old man was crucified in order that the body of sin might be rendered powerless. This means that Moses, that is, the Mosaic code was put to death so that they could live new lives. In Chapter 7 Paul said that it was the law (Moses) that made them sin. So that “old man” had to be put to death. The “old man” was not the body of sin or the sin nature. It was Moses. It was the law.
Third, it had nothing to do with Gentiles because they were never married to Moses. They did not have the law (Rom. 2). They had only the revelation of God in nature.
thinker
Hi TT.
Rom6
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,Context.
OUR old man.
Body of sin.No mention of Moses or the OT law
thethinker,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Thinker wrote – Seeking,The “flesh” of Galatians 5 is not the “old man” of Romans 6. The “flesh” in Galatians 5 is indeed the sinful nature. All men have a sinful nature. But the “old man” was a metaphor for Moses or the Mosaic code. The “old man” therefore was the law to which Israel was married. The law had been nailled to the cross,
Thinker, I didn't say it was and I didn't say it wasn't. I pasted the portion of your entry I was addressing.
Quote I know that some of you may be seething for my saying these things. But many Christians have been misguided into thinking that their supposed “sinful nature” was put to death and they end up feeling defeated because their lives don't match up with it. To that end, I believe my observations are appropro.
Seeking
Ho S,
You say
“But the “old man” was a metaphor for Moses or the Mosaic code.”
Really.
You will provide us with the scriptural backing?OUR OLD MAN[rom6]
Hi S,
Rom6
Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sinMoses was crucified?
Hi:
Following is one of the visions that the Lord showed me shortly after my conversion experience:
I saw a casket. The top half was open and I saw what I thought was my dad in the casket. The bottom half of the casket was draped with an array of white impatien flowers with one red one in the center. There was also the calendar month of June with a 15-16 date in the vision.
I thought that the Lord was showing me that my dad was going to pass away in the month of june following my conversion experience which was in the month of February. My dad was living in New Mexico, and so in the month of June I went to New Mexico expecting him to pass away, but he did not.
God was not showing me that my dad was going to pass away, but that my old impatient man would pass away. The white impatien flowers were my sins which were washed away and the red one was the blood of Jesus. Whether or not I have totally arrived or whether it will be this June, I do not know. I do know that I was very impatient, but in waiting on the Lord, I have learned and am learning patience.
And so, yes, the old man is crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be detroyed.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2009,16:31)
Nick writes –Ho S,
You say“But the “old man” was a metaphor for Moses or the Mosaic code.”
No sir!!!! Wasn't me!!!!
thethinker,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Thinker wrote – The “flesh” of Galatians 5 is not the “old man” of Romans 6. The “flesh” in Galatians 5 is indeed the sinful nature. All men have a sinful nature. But the “old man” was a metaphor for Moses or the Mosaic code. The “old man” therefore was the law to which Israel was married. The law had been nailled to the cross,In response to thinker's statement “The “flesh” of Galatians 5 is not the “old man” of Romans 6. ” I replied as follows:
Thinker, I didn't say it was and I didn't say it wasn't. I pasted the portion of your entry I was addressing.
To your – “Really.
You will provide us with the scriptural backing?” my answer is NO!Later!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2009,19:13) Hi S,
Sorry,
I am slowly getting used to your different style of replying.
No problem.Seeking
Hi,
Here is the OLD MAN
Rom7
17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
2Cor5
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Hi,
The OLD MAN is of the first ADAM.
Earth into which God breathed.
It cannot inherit the kingdom.The NEW man is created in the likeness of the second Adam.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
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