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Hi,
There is no doubt that Satan has powers and such that can produce miracles as the magicians of Pharaoh performed and as are shown in Revelation.Here is a link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OccultSuch belief in magic powers permeates some aspects of denominational church life too with the baptism of infants and the eucharist.
Witchcraft is to be shunned by those who live in the powers of God's Spirit.
Nick,
From the site you provided the link to: “Occultism is the study of occult or hidden wisdom. To the occultist it is the study of “Truth”, a deeper truth that exists beneath the surface: 'The truth is always hidden in plain sight'.”
What evil is there in this? Seeking truth or wisdom is not evil. The three wisemen or magi would be considered occultists today. Just because there are some evil cults that fall under this wide umbrella does mean all are tainted. Witchcraft (of which there are many kinds) is a subset of the occult and not necessarily indicative of the whole. It is like saying religion is bad because there are Satanists, your net is cast too wide.
Cato! Just because there are so many occults today, we as Christians have to be twice as careful not to get involved with them. Coming out of the Catholic Church I know how easy it is to be deceived.
So the best advice I give anybody that even has the slightest interest in these things to stay away.
Since your Post is somewhat positive about these occults, do you study with them or what?Peace and Love Mrs.
Seek,
You must learn to differentiate connotation from definition. To many, occult implies devil worship and scenes from Rosemary's Baby and various other Hollywood movies. It is in fact merely seeking hidden wisdom and includes many areas from alchemy to astrology. I have studied some of what would be referred to as occult and find it a very diversified landscape of truth, lies, non-sense, and wisdom, just like many other broad fields of study. I would, like you, advise the ignorant or the weak to be careful as some areas do contain dangers and pitfalls. Yet it would be wrong to paint the entire picture with the color of one part. You would hate for all to view Christianity through the lens of the Inquistion wouldn't you? It is the quest for wisdom and whether mystic or monk enlightenment is an admirable goal. In any field of study there are charlatans, the disreputable, and the down right evil, but this is true in religion, business, science and life in general but we don't judge all by the actions of some. There is good as well as malevolent in the occult, it is not for children as in many areas it touches upon deep psychological impulses but it is not evil or wrong anymore then studying other facets of creation. I will grant this much, the broad area covered by the term occult is unfortunately littered with con-men and ignorant dabblers inspired by popular fiction rather then true seekers of wisdom.
Hi cato,
How can you decide what is good or evil in the occult?There is indeed hidden wisdom.
1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:But it is revealed in Christ by the Spirit and not propounded by those ignorant of his ways. Such wisdom is likely to be demonic or from the angelic realm. It cannot produce good fruit.
Jas3
13Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.14But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Quote (Cato @ Mar. 28 2008,06:14) Seek, You must learn to differentiate connotation from definition. To many, occult implies devil worship and scenes from Rosemary's Baby and various other Hollywood movies. It is in fact merely seeking hidden wisdom and includes many areas from alchemy to astrology. I have studied some of what would be referred to as occult and find it a very diversified landscape of truth, lies, non-sense, and wisdom, just like many other broad fields of study. I would, like you, advise the ignorant or the weak to be careful as some areas do contain dangers and pitfalls. Yet it would be wrong to paint the entire picture with the color of one part. You would hate for all to view Christianity through the lens of the Inquistion wouldn't you? It is the quest for wisdom and whether mystic or monk enlightenment is an admirable goal. In any field of study there are charlatans, the disreputable, and the down right evil, but this is true in religion, business, science and life in general but we don't judge all by the actions of some. There is good as well as malevolent in the occult, it is not for children as in many areas it touches upon deep psychological impulses but it is not evil or wrong anymore then studying other facets of creation. I will grant this much, the broad area covered by the term occult is unfortunately littered with con-men and ignorant dabblers inspired by popular fiction rather then true seekers of wisdom.
I an really disappointed in your answer. How in the world can you say that anything coming out of the occult would be good or even wisdom. Wisdom is of God. What comes out of there is of the devil and has nothing to do with God. And for that reason we as Christian should not even dribble in it.
Boy, Oh Boy. I did not think that I would ever hear anybody say such an insult to God. Give me a break. Yes, I am very upset with such nonsense.Mrs.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2008,07:07) Hi cato,
How can you decide what is good or evil in the occult?
The same way we decide what is good or evil in anything in life by examining it through our God given conscience. Nick and Seek, both of you are still confusing the total of occultism with its negative aspect as most see in popular fiction. As defined before, all it means is studying hidden wisdom. If you claim all wisdom comes from God then it is a study of God. The three wisemen from Matthew were magi most likely Persian, they studied the stars to lead them to Jesus, clearly occult, are they evil?Many in Judaism study kabbalah According to the Zohar, generally considered the foremost Kabbalistic text, Torah study is divided into four levels:
Peshat, the simple meaning of the text;
Remez, literally “hint“—biblical allusion and allegory;
Derash, i.e. midrash, Rabbinic scriptural exegesis;
Sod, which is the kabbalah, the secret inner meaning of the Torah.
Kabbalah is considered, by its followers, as a necessary part of the study of Torah — the study of Torah (the Law of God) being an inherent duty of observant Jews.[3] Kabbalah teaches doctrines that are accepted by some Jews as the true meaning of Judaism while other Jews have rejected these doctrines as heretical and antithetical to Judaism.The Essene sect of the Jews who many believe may have included Jesus himself and many of the early followers of Jesus were mystics and would be considered occultists.
Who do you think Daniel was, he talked with Gabriel and an unknown being by the name of Ulai (Daniel 8:15 ) how did he know it was not Satan in disguise?
Not everything outside of your understanding is from Satan. Are you next going to break out the Malleus Maleficarum and go burn some witches? You see evil in everything you don't understand.
Hi cato,
Is conscience reliable?
Scripture speaks of damaged consciences.
And conscience is not consistent among humanity.1 Corinthians 8:7
Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1 Corinthians 8:12
But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
Titus 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
1 Corinthians 10:29
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?God commanded his ancient people, the Israelites, to avoid all occult practices. “Everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah,” warns Deuteronomy 18:10-12. Christians were likewise warned that “those practicing spiritism” would meet destruction at God’s hand. (Revelation 21:8)
Consider what happened in the first-century city of Ephesus. Many there “practiced magical arts.” But some were moved by the powerful works the apostle Paul performed with the aid of holy spirit. The results? “Quite a number of those who practiced magical arts brought their books together and burned them up before everybody. And they calculated together the prices of them and found them worth fifty thousand pieces of silver. Thus in a mighty way the word of Jehovah kept growing and prevailing.”—Acts 19:11-20.
This being said, a lot of what people consider “the work of demons” isn't. Those people who see an illusionist do a card trick and think it's the power of beelzebub bother me.
David,
Biblical warnings do not cover the total of the occult but only a part. I would in no way defend the black arts, necromancy, curses, etc., also I find that diviners are usually frauds and con-men out to fleece the gullable. However there are other aspects that are noble in their goals and seek to advance the cause of God and humanity. Many of the founders of the U.S.A. were occultists, from Ben Franklin to Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, a group of noble, educated, intelligent men of wisdom and ability who changed the world for the better. Again go back to the definition of occult and quit confusing same with black magic and demon Worship. Remember much of science would have been considered occult and evil in the middle ages, just look what the church did to Galileo.
Hi Cato,
I think people are completely missing what you say about the definition of occult.
They can only see it as black arts.Definition of occult.
1.Of, relating to, or dealing with supernatural influences, agencies, or phenomena.
2.Beyond the realm of human comprehension; inscrutable.
3.Available only to the initiate; secret: occult lore.
4.Hidden from view; concealed.Pretty much every Christian fits within that description if they believe in Jesus.
Tim
Hi cato,
Yes The USA was founded on masonic occult practices.
Is that some sort of proof that this is the true way of God?
No it is the way of the god of this world and that god has been judged.John 15:19
“If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.Question cato.
Is that a wizard you portray, with your avatar? I don't know, but it just looks or feels like a wizard or something. Do you see yourself that way?
Quote (david @ Mar. 29 2008,13:19) Question cato. Is that a wizard you portray, with your avatar? I don't know, but it just looks or feels like a wizard or something. Do you see yourself that way?
David! I am smiling
because I had the same impression some time ago.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (david @ Mar. 29 2008,13:19) Question cato. Is that a wizard you portray, with your avatar? I don't know, but it just looks or feels like a wizard or something. Do you see yourself that way?
Gandalf the Grey (later the White) is a archtypical wizard from Tolkien, like Merlin in Arthurian romance. In literature he is a strong force for good and represents wisdom and learning as well as power. As an imaginative archtype I would love to model my later years after him, but that is like saying I hope to be spiderman or batman, it is fantasy. No I am no wizard or even wiseman, just a middle age engineer, father, and husband, yet I have a good mind, solid education and have seen too many things in my life to accept allegory and symbolism as fact and history like too many here do.Hi cato,
The bible mentions such characters.Leviticus 19:31
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.Leviticus 20:6
And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.Deuteronomy 18:11
Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.Isaiah 8:19
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?Seems their inspiration is other than the Spirit of God.
First of all there are many versions and translations of the Bible where the word wizard is never mentioned, ie., NIV, English Standard version, Darby, New Life, Holman standard, Wycliffe New Testament, Worldwide English NT, Todays New International Version, to name a few.
Perhaps it is because the term wizard is in itself ambiguous, which is why not all translations use the term. It can mean:
1. One who practices magic; a magician.
2. A skilled or clever person.
3. Archaic A sage.A more accurate rendition of Biblical warning would be against:
necromancy –1. a method of divination through alleged communication with the dead; black art.
2. magic in general, esp. that practiced by a witch or sorcerer; sorcery; witchcraft; conjuration.In either event I thought it plain that wizards such as depicted in my avatar are fictional. This one in particular was the creation of a great author who distinguished this character by his goodness and wisdom. The fact that you, David and Seek even bring up my avatar's picture, which was by the way offered for use at this sight, I see as a childish way to distract from true dissertation or taint my character as nefarious or delusional. I don't know whether to laugh at the attempt or be offended knowing that this is a fundamentalist site where many people take even veiled accusations of evil seriously. I am thankful that this is not the middle ages for I fear I would next be accused of witchcraft and burnt at the stake.
Cato,
I've always thought your Avatar was cool! And by the way, it suits you.
David and Irene, I have a question for you both – what if Cato said he practiced witchcraft? Would you condemn him?
How about you, Nick? Would you “….regard him not…” as the bible teaches?
I wonder what the difference is between practicing witchcraft and telling a lie? Or stealing and sleeping with your neighbor's wife? Is there any difference between “sins”?
I've heard Christians come down really heavy on those who participate in Harry Potter, but I've also seen the same Christians sit down to an “R” rated movie that is filled with lying, stealing, orgies and so on. Are they any better than those they condemn? Scripture condemn's both parties as far as I am aware.
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