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Hi Gene
Quote would you at least agree that the question about light presented to Job was a highly intellegent question, which could show and intellegent being's possibility. I’m sorry Gene I just don’t see what point you are trying to make here. What question was presented to Job? By whom?
Quote Your question about the east wind is easly answered, and east wind comes from the west. So sometimes people say an east wind, meaning the wind is comming from the east. But if you were in a boat and you caught a east wind it would mean the wind was driving you eastward but the wind was actually comming from the west heading east. Its a matter of how you conceder it. My point was that science does acknowledge that the sun's rays do drive winds. Even small sun wheeles prove the presence of driving ray of the sun. No, the east wind is defined as the one coming from the east. There is no coming from the west with an east wind! Job did not explain anything. Not even you used the word convection in your paraphrase of Job. Would you like to have a go at explaining to me how the sun wheels work? Which way do you think the vanes turn? Does the black side lead the rotation, or the white side?
Quote You comment about Newtons Genius being lost because He studied the bible has not ever been acknowledge by anyone that i know of. His genuis shined all the way through His entire life. Even Einstein, Said there was never a more intellegent person who ever lived. Now this highly intellegent human being whose analytic ability far exceeded anyone believed there was a God, in fact He wrote more about God then any of His other works. He was undoubtedly a highly intelligent and gifted man, but I am acknowledging for you now that his genius was for science, not religion.
Quote Could he just have been stupid , never mind we still to this day guide our spaceship through space by his analyitical mind's formulas. Don't you think this proof driven person may have also proven the existence of a Highly intellegent Creator Being. Don't you think it worth some consideration in our dialogue. No it is not worth a bean. Newton’s opinion about the existence of god makes it no more or less likely. Noam Chomsky is a genius not far off Newton, and is an atheist. Does Chomsky’s atheism prove that god does not exist? Dawkins and Hitchens could be converted tomorrow and it would not say anything about the truth of christian supernatual belief. Just as you have not proved there is a god, neither have I proved there isn’t one. Both are impossible.
Quote We could also get into prophesy where Daniel prophesied the pergression of the world ruling kingdoms in detail hundreds of year before it ever took place and even our prestent History teachs that these progression did take place one after another just like they were told they would. I'll look it up and present it for you for your evaluation when i get time to…….thanks ….gene OK! I don’t think it will be nearly as good as Darwin predicting what fossils would be found and where, or astronomers telling us exactly when the next lunar eclipse will be, or Mendelyev describing in accurate detail the properties of chemical elements that had not yet been discovered. Every biblical prophecy I have read has been about as good as the cold reading done by stage illusionists, or is so airy-fairy that just about any event could fulfil the prediction.
Good luck convincing me!
Stuart
Sorry, I should have put the following here:
What many call faith isn't really faith.
Let's take a quick look at how the Bible defines it.
The word “faith” is translated from the Greek pi′stis, primarily conveying the thought of confidence, trust, firm persuasion. Depending on the context, the Greek word may also be understood to mean “faithfulness” or “fidelity.”—1Th 3:7; Tit 2:10.
The Scriptures tell us: “Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.” (Heb 11:1)
“Assured expectation” translates the Greek word hy·po′sta·sis. This term is common in ancient papyrus business documents. It conveys the idea of something that underlies visible conditions and guarantees a future possession. In view of this, Moulton and Milligan suggest the rendering: “Faith is the title deed of things hoped for.” (Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, 1963, p. 660) The Greek word e′leg·khos, rendered “evident demonstration,” conveys the idea of bringing forth evidence that demonstrates something, particularly something contrary to what appears to be the case. Thereby this evidence makes clear what has not been discerned before and so refutes what has only appeared to be the case. “The evident demonstration,” or evidence for conviction, is so positive or powerful that faith is said to be it.Faith is, therefore, the basis for hope and the evidence for conviction concerning unseen realities.
As a side note, the entire body of truths delivered by Jesus Christ and his inspired disciples constitutes the true Christian “faith.” (Joh 18:37; Ga 1:7-9; Ac 6:7; 1Ti 5:8) But that is not the use of the word we are speaking of.Faith is based on concrete evidence. The visible creative works testify to the existence of an invisible Creator. (Ro 1:20) The actual occurrences taking place during the ministry and earthly life of Jesus Christ identify him as the Son of God. (Mt 27:54)
God’s record of providing for his earthly creatures serves as a valid basis for believing that he will surely provide for his servants, and his record as a Giver and Restorer of life lends ample evidence to the credibility of the resurrection hope. (Mt 6:26, 30, 33; Ac 17:31; 1Co 15:3-8, 20, 21) Furthermore, the reliability of God’s Word and the accurate fulfillment of its prophecies instill confidence in the realization of all of His promises. (Jos 23:14) Thus, in these many ways, “faith follows the thing heard.”—Ro 10:17; compare Joh 4:7-30, 39-42; Ac 14:8-10.So faith is not credulity. The person who may ridicule faith usually has faith himself in tried and trusted friends. The scientist has faith in the principles of his branch of science. He bases new experiments on past discoveries and looks for new discoveries on the basis of those things already established as true.
Ancient Examples of Faith. . Each one of the “so great a cloud of witnesses” mentioned by Paul (Heb 12:1) had a valid basis for faith.
For example, Abel certainly knew about God’s promise concerning a “seed” that would bruise “the serpent” in the head. And he saw tangible evidences of the fulfillment of the sentence Jehovah pronounced upon his parents in Eden. Outside Eden, Adam and his family ate bread in the sweat of their face because the ground was cursed and, therefore, produced thorns and thistles. Likely Abel observed that Eve’s craving was for her husband and that Adam dominated his wife. Undoubtedly his mother commented about the pain attending her pregnancy. Then, too, the entrance to the garden of Eden was being guarded by cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword. (Ge 3:14-19, 24) All of this constituted an “evident demonstration,” giving Abel the assurance that deliverance would come through the ‘seed of promise.’ Therefore, prompted by faith, he “offered God a sacrifice,” one that proved to be of greater worth than that of Cain.—Heb 11:1, 4.Another example:
Abraham had a firm basis for faith in a resurrection, for he and Sarah had experienced the miraculous restoration of their reproductive powers, which was, in a sense, comparable to a resurrection, allowing Abraham’s family line to continue through Sarah. Isaac was born as the result of this miracle. When told to offer up Isaac, Abraham had faith that God would resurrect his son. He based such faith on God’s promise: “It is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be.”—Ge 21:12; Heb 11:11, 12, 17-19.Faith is not the possession of all persons, as it is a fruit of God’s spirit. (2Th 3:2; Ga 5:22)
And a Christian’s faith is not static, but it grows. (2Th 1:3)Hence, the request of Jesus’ disciples, “Give us more faith,” was very appropriate, and he did provide them the foundation for increased faith. He supplied them with greater evidence and understanding on which to base their faith.—Lu 17:5.
The entire life course of a Christian is actually governed by faith, enabling him to overcome mountainlike obstacles that would hinder his service to God. (2Co 5:7; Mt 21:21, 22)
Faith for Christians who are born again believers, in not in believing that God is a reality without evidence, but through the born again experience God has testified to His reality and that His testimony regarding His Son and His Christ, Jesus, is true having reconciled us to Himself forgiving us of all of our sins and dwelling within us as our helper by His Spirit.
Our faith is believing that the promises that God has made to us by personal prophecy or through His written Word are true in spite of the fact that we may not see any evidence in our present circumstances. We know that God's character of Holiness is such that if He has given His Word that He will surely bring what He has spoken to pass. It is impossible for God to lie.
God Bless
I think the last two posts have contributed further to the understanding of the concept of faith as held by the faithful. Reflecting on the contributions thusfar there is a striking difference in how people percieve the meaning of religious faith. Some think I as an atheist have faith. Others think I don't. Faith is evidence unseen or can be evidence seen too (no-one has claimed both, though).
Do the faithful need a flexible dictionary to get along with one another? Does each use a different sense of the word to mean their own kind of faith?
Stuart
The following was recently posted in the Boy Scouts' section of the forum:
Quote
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2006,13:30)
Hi,
A verse I had not noted before.
Rom 1.19
“because that which is known about God IS EVIDENT WITHIN THEM; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen…”So every man is given a measure of faith to be able to recognise the works of God in creation?
That is a very well put verse Nick. Thanks for reminding me about it.
It also reminds us for need for child like faith. A child will believe just because the gospel is true, whereas an adult will usually contest that which faith would show them with reason and/or excuses.
Children are genetically programmed to believe things told to them by adults because of the immense survival advantage it gives. That same essential childish gullibility is exploited ruthelessly by those of religious fatih who had the same thing done to them, in an effort to spread the 'word' (or the meme) of religion. The Jesuits 'give me the boy and I'll give you the man' is better put as 'give me the boy and I'll give you another Catholic'. Does faith prey on the qualities children have, and is there a vicious cycle of deception, a bit like generational domestic violence? Don't forget that very few 'muslim children' are born to christian parents, and vice-versa.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Are scientists born to scientists?Faith is within us and all have choices.
I was raised religious but found the bible and found faith.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,19:20) Hi Stu,
Are scientists born to scientists?Faith is within us and all have choices.
I was raised religious but found the bible and found faith.
I think we are all scientists, whether we realise it or not. Science is just a specialised and formalised part of human nature.Skepticism is within us but is overpowered by the way natural selection has slanted our senses including the brain (to our survival advantage, but not perception advantage), because the meme that is religious belief hijacks the vulnerabilities in our thinking processes much like a virus hijacks the cell's replication mechanism. To the outside it may look like we are capable of faith, but you could equally say that the drunk is capable of falling over.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Natural selection is one of the scientific conclusions that you tell us are so prone to being found to be erroneous but yet you confidently propound it as truth. It is a pretty shallow foundation.
I work within a scientific field and love knowledge that reveals more of the design of creation.
But I worship God and not the reflection.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 21 2007,05:06) Hi Stu,
Natural selection is one of the scientific conclusions that you tell us are so prone to being found to be erroneous but yet you confidently propound it as truth. It is a pretty shallow foundation.
I work within a scientific field and love knowledge that reveals more of the design of creation.
But I worship God and not the reflection.
I'm afraid I think your 'reflection' aphorism would make you less of a scientist because you have come to a conclusion without evidence.I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what 'falsifiable' means. Natural selection is falsifiable, it is possible to disprove it, just like gravity or atomic theory or plate tectonics, but that is not to say that is has been disproved.
Your faith is something you rely on because no-one can disprove the existence of your creator, but by the nature of faith you have no guarantee that it is right. In any case, I don't pin all my hopes and dreams on the correctness of evolution by natural selection, although it has more substance than christianity or any of the other religious belief system.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
You float in a sea of possibilities and need an anchor for your soul.
I grew fascinated and then amazed and I continue to be so with the beauty and consistency and harmony of all the books of the bible written through so many authors over so many centuries. That alone is strong enough evidence for me that the God spoken of in the book was indeed the true Author and obedience to what is written has given me peace.
Perhaps you prefer intellectual stuff but inner peace is so good.Hi Nick
Quote You float in a sea of possibilities and need an anchor for your soul.
I’m not saying that the universe owes us security. Doesn’t this faith look rather like a child’s security blanket?Quote I grew fascinated and then amazed and I continue to be so with the beauty and consistency and harmony of all the books of the bible written through so many authors over so many centuries. That alone is strong enough evidence for me that the God spoken of in the book was indeed the true Author and obedience to what is written has given me peace.
Science is doing exactly the same. The grand scheme is to unite Quantum theory with gravity. It involves a lot of mathematical meddling to match the two up. That is not a fraction of the meddling that has gone into trying to get the bible consistent. Even though it still isn’t.Quote Perhaps you prefer intellectual stuff but inner peace is so good.
Isn’t the first step to honest inner peace the one where you throw away the security blanket?Stuart
Stu,
You talk as if faith is exclusive to those having “religion”. Faith is no more than the trust you put in a person, an idea, or a thing to the extent that it becomes the basis for your position on all things related.You scorn the “unseen” the same as science has many of it's own advancements until evidence became overwhelming. I see no conflicts with science only with many of the conclusions.
You accuse those who have placed their trust in God of being blind to alternative postulations, but you are no different.
Your “religion” is science and you are a defender of it's faith which by it's own teaching ends in death. You accuse others of “wishful thinking” but I do not believe those of your persuasion have thought about it at all. If there is nothing but this life then it would only make sense to think only of yourself (to quote a popular movie “take all you can get, give nothing back”) and when things get rough, despair and die, higher ideals are only possible where there is more to life then what you see. Society itself begins to break down with your belief and that is evident all around us.Fortunately there is a God who loves us and provides peace and yes He is my “security blanket”. All He asks is that we place our trust in Him, die to self, meaning, do just the opposite of what your “religion” inspires.
Wm
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 05 2008,23:26) Hi Nick Quote You float in a sea of possibilities and need an anchor for your soul.
I’m not saying that the universe owes us security. Doesn’t this faith look rather like a child’s security blanket?Quote I grew fascinated and then amazed and I continue to be so with the beauty and consistency and harmony of all the books of the bible written through so many authors over so many centuries. That alone is strong enough evidence for me that the God spoken of in the book was indeed the true Author and obedience to what is written has given me peace.
Science is doing exactly the same. The grand scheme is to unite Quantum theory with gravity. It involves a lot of mathematical meddling to match the two up. That is not a fraction of the meddling that has gone into trying to get the bible consistent. Even though it still isn’t.Quote Perhaps you prefer intellectual stuff but inner peace is so good.
Isn’t the first step to honest inner peace the one where you throw away the security blanket?Stuart
Hi stu,
You have the choice.
Supposed knowledge about how
gives a transient false sense of security and control.
However the amazing harmonious bible offers insights beyond what we see and hear that must either be accepted or rejected.
Most are with you and feel brave enough to reject these things but life is short and the answers will be with you soon enough.Hi Seekingtruth
Quote You talk as if faith is exclusive to those having “religion”. Faith is no more than the trust you put in a person, an idea, or a thing to the extent that it becomes the basis for your position on all things related.
I think we have dealt with the definitions of ‘faith’, and some agree with you but I don’t. For me the key definition is belief without evidence and it is not only the religious but those who take astrology and alien abduction seriously who have faith. I certainly take things / people on trust, but that is based on evidence that they are trustworthy. I extend to you the challenge to tell me something I do purely on faith.Quote You scorn the “unseen” the same as science has many of it's own advancements until evidence became overwhelming. I see no conflicts with science only with many of the conclusions.
Can you explain what you mean by that last sentence?Quote You accuse those who have placed their trust in God of being blind to alternative postulations, but you are no different. Your “religion” is science and you are a defender of it's faith which by it's own teaching ends in death.
As I said above, ‘trust’ in god is actually not trust but faith, and yes it is blind. Again, can you explain what you mean by the last sentence about death? I don’t understand that bit. I accept the possibility that there is a god but I give it a very low probability. Are you willing to accept the possibility that there is no god of the kind you worship? If you say no, then there is the basis of my accusation.Quote You accuse others of “wishful thinking” but I do not believe those of your persuasion have thought about it at all. If there is nothing but this life then it would only make sense to think only of yourself (to quote a popular movie “take all you can get, give nothing back”) and when things get rough, despair and die, higher ideals are only possible where there is more to life then what you see. Society itself begins to break down with your belief and that is evident all around us.
I can’t see at all why it would only make sense for a non-believer to think of oneself in the situation that you describe. I find no meaning for my life in having everything revolve around me. What of the joy of seeing happiness in others? I don’t think society is ‘breaking down’ because of atheism. Christianity had 1500 years of dominance but you could hardly call the result of that pleasant. I think there has never been a better age to live in. The only threats are our unfortunately destructive environmental habits and religious fundamentalism.Quote Fortunately there is a God who loves us and provides peace and yes He is my “security blanket”. All He asks is that we place our trust in Him, die to self, meaning, do just the opposite of what your “religion” inspires.
I don’t have a religion, and I suggest to you that there is no such god of which you write. I think faith in any god is a bluff, or a self-delusion. All the concrete evidence says so.Stuart
Hi Nick
Quote You have the choice. Supposed knowledge about how gives a transient false sense of security and control.
If you mean that the scientific model of the universe gives some kind of emotional security for us then I would disagree. The universe is pitilessly indifferent to us and if we venture outside our very thin biosphere on this planet then we don’t last long without intensive support from it. As for control, we have very limited powers to control cosmic processes. Our knowledge does tell us that, which is at least useful for gaining more control over it. We even know that intercessory prayer doesn’t work! I would have thought religious faith is the transient false sense of security, judging by the numbers who simply abandon faith in god as a sick joke, often after an event like the Asian tsunami.Quote However the amazing harmonious bible offers insights beyond what we see and hear that must either be accepted or rejected.
The fact that it is not harmonious is another major reason why people walk away from christianity.Quote Most are with you and feel brave enough to reject these things but life is short and the answers will be with you soon enough.
Meaning what, exactly?Stuart
Hi tow,
Concrete cannot hold the dead.
The concrete evidence as written is that all who die will rise again.
It is best to be raised in the first resurrection but the rest will be raised to face judgement 1000 years later.
Then only those found worthy because of love shown to the followers of Christ will be shown mercy.
So philosophy falls flat when what is written is taken into account.Jn5, Rev 20,
Hi Nick
Quote Hi tow, I’m assuming you mean Hi Stu
Quote Concrete cannot hold the dead. The concrete evidence as written is that all who die will rise again. You have verifiable evidence of resurrection? Faith is dead, then, there is no need to believe the unseen!
Quote It is best to be raised in the first resurrection but the rest will be raised to face judgement 1000 years later.
Then only those found worthy because of love shown to the followers of Christ will be shown mercy.
So philosophy falls flat when what is written is taken into account.‘It is written’ was the great con job of the literate clergy when they didn’t want to be questioned on the absurd doctrines that very likely they themselves did not really believe. The difference here is that you have swallowed the line (and the hook and the sinker) without a scrap of critical thinking. It is also written that god does not exist. Neither means anything without evidence, and unverified scripture most certainly is not evidence.
Stuart
Hi stu,
Yes a fool says in his heart there is no God.
Faith in what is written is a requirement of faith in our God.
Intellectual satisfaction may never be gained by yourself but the message of God in the bible cannot be ignored.
You must be born again.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 06 2008,19:17) Hi stu,
Yes a fool says in his heart there is no God.
Faith in what is written is a requirement of faith in our God.
Intellectual satisfaction may never be gained by yourself but the message of God in the bible cannot be ignored.
You must be born again.
Thanks for the insult Nick. I have lost count of how many times I have had this quoted to me. I am not the most brilliant person, but I am not a fool.I actually think what you have written here is completely meaningless. I cannot fathom what it means to say
Quote Intellectual satisfaction may never be gained by yourself but the message of God in the bible cannot be ignored. – are you saying that I can neither gain intellectual satisfaction and I must accept scripture? I think accepting scripture and intellectual satisfaction are mutually exclusive.
Why must I be born again? You add to the 'fool' insult the slight that I was not born correctly the first time?
Stuart
Hi Stu,
You were surely pointing to this verse in your previous post?
Besides if scripture offends you then such is the work of scripture.
Knowledge surely follows faith when it comes to spiritual matters.If you want personal proof that God exists and every word written is valid
then you will not know these things till you decide to believe and obey.
Such is the seemingly unreasonable nature of illogical FAITH
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