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Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 13 2008,00:13) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,01:46) Hi Nick Quote I hope you do not mind me bothering you but the matter is urgent and we do not want the whole world to know what I am going to have to tell you.
That’s fine. I am used to being patronised here.Quote The reason I am writing to you is to inform you of the alarming early results of the Scandanavian double blind crossover W.A.C.K.O. trial on faith. Unfortunately results are not looking good. It seems that faith in it's native state is very unstable. Unless it is converted into action within a few days it seems to degenerate into useless inert philosophy or actually become dead religion. On the back of the continuing failure of the Department of Evolution project to convert theories into facts the future is looking particularly glum for not just the theology group but for the whole speculation industry. I think we can keep this under our hats in the meantime and hope things improve in later trials.
Move over Monty Python and make room for a comedy genius.Stuart
Stu,Give Nick a break. That was the longest post of his own words I've ever seen. He probably had to take a nap after writing it.
Hi Tow,
You protest that the apostles did not understand the messages of Christ as if their faith should have included understanding. I disagree. They are a great example of true faith that lacks understanding but holds on because their spirit has heard truth. Even later in life Peter was able to say he did not understand Paul because of the same problem.It is a huge advantage to be simple but loyal and Peter refused to leave Jesus despite not understanding the message Their simplicity and lack of intellectual barriers meant that they were good soil for the work of the Lord in them.
It is sad to see the success of the missionaries of doubt here who use lack of understanding as a weapon to weaken faith whereas faith never needed all the answers anyway.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2008,14:28) Hi Tow,
You protest that the apostles did not understand the messages of Christ as if their faith should have included understanding. I disagree. They are a great example of true faith that lacks understanding but holds on because their spirit has heard truth. Even later in life Peter was able to say he did not understand Paul because of the same problem.It is a huge advantage to be simple but loyal and Peter refused to leave Jesus despite not understanding the message Their simplicity and lack of intellectual barriers meant that they were good soil for the work of the Lord in them.
It is sad to see the success of the missionaries of doubt here who use lack of understanding as a weapon to weaken faith whereas faith never needed all the answers anyway.
Is this the ideal that you would have me apply to myself? That I should swap a life based on a worldview into which I have put a considerable amount of consideration, for one in which being loyal and unquestioning are qualities that will be of huge benefit?Your celebration of ignorance and unthinking obedience I find repugnant, and I suggest to you that such has been the starting point for the most brutal dictatorships in history.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
That contempt for simplicity has been the barrier for intellectuals since Christ.
Most intellectuals are unhappy with the thought of being born again.
But that is the only door, the door of Christ.Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,14:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2008,14:38) Hi Stu,
Let the houses of churchianity bleed membership.
They will of course become more man centred to stave off their demise
But what is real will remain because we do not need a building to chat to our Dad.
Well I think the principle applies equally to those who are devout / born again but who do not attend church. Your interpretation is a very boutique-sized one as religion goes.Stuart
Hi Stu,
You need to seem to want to be the judge of all behaviours in any way related to following Christ.That in itself is a pretty obvious indication of bias.
Having previously indicated that belief is useless you seem to want also to judge those who do believe but do not attend any denomination.
Your answer also shows a presumption that going to church is necessary for believers and it is wrong to not do so. Why do you reach this conclusion?
Hi Nick
Quote That contempt for simplicity has been the barrier for intellectuals since Christ.
Most intellectuals are unhappy with the thought of being born again.
But that is the only door, the door of Christ.
What value does this ‘truth’ have if it has barriers to particular ways of just being human? Actually in my experience the essence of intellectualism is to try and simplify, where that is appropriate. If being born again is the only door to a messiah who also commanded his followers to ‘hate’ their families in order to follow him, and that ‘it is good to teach’ stoning for ‘sinners’ of particular kinds (one of which I currently am according to that good-to-teach stuff) then you can appreciate that there is not much motivation for me to follow that path, notwithstanding the lack of any good reasons to do so.Quote You need to seem to want to be the judge of all behaviours in any way related to following Christ. That in itself is a pretty obvious indication of bias.
Yes, I am definitely biased. I consider those who follow in ignorance with compassion but those who follow in the full knowledge of what they are doing with a challenge to show that it is actually true, what is claimed. Those who spout doctrine are the ones worthy of grief for the death of their capacity for critical thought, a quality that separates us from other species, and I would have thought from the point of view of the believer, a gift from the creator to be used to its full capacity. Yet you proclaim ignorance as a virtue. Why did your god give you a frontal cortex at all?Quote Having previously indicated that belief is useless you seem to want also to judge those who do believe but do not attend any denomination. Your answer also shows a presumption that going to church is necessary for believers and it is wrong to not do so. Why do you reach this conclusion?
I think it is faith that is pretty useless. Whether you go to church or not is irrelevant to whether you have faith that a man had only one human parent, was able to walk on the surface of water without support and walked again after he had been judicially executed. Those are childish, wishful fantasies, and it looks now like the Archbishop of Canterbury is joining the great hoards of Anglicans who are admitting they never believed these things to be literally true. As others do the same, your mode of faith gets more boutique-sized by the week. Maybe you think it is not useless for you and I don’t know you well enough to make that judgement, but I don’t think you have really made an objective assessment of it that we here have read.Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2008,21:28) Hi Tow,
You protest that the apostles did not understand the messages of Christ as if their faith should have included understanding. I disagree. They are a great example of true faith that lacks understanding but holds on because their spirit has heard truth. Even later in life Peter was able to say he did not understand Paul because of the same problem.But you still failed to show how it was possible to misunderstand when Jesus told them he would die and be raised three days later. How simple can this get?
================================
Mar 9:31 for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him. And when he is killed, after three days he will rise.”
================================What's sad is that you say it took spiritual understanding to figure out what this meant, so I guess you are saying there were others who did not follow him that had a better understanding:
================================
Mat 27:63 and said, “Sir, we remember how that impostor said, while he was still alive, 'After three days I will rise.'
Mat 27:64 Therefore order the tomb to be made secure until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal him away and tell the people, 'He has risen from the dead,' and the last fraud will be worse than the first.”
================================Quote It is a huge advantage to be simple but loyal and Peter refused to leave Jesus despite not understanding the message Their simplicity and lack of intellectual barriers meant that they were good soil for the work of the Lord in them. It is sad to see the success of the missionaries of doubt here who use lack of understanding as a weapon to weaken faith whereas faith never needed all the answers anyway.
Hehe, we use lack of understanding. I likely understand what the scriptures are supposed to mean more than you and that is why you can often do no more than attack me on my lack of belief in parts of the Tanakh. None of this detracts from the fact that you believe all of it is true yet cannot defend such belief as being realistic when I provide passages that refute your Jesus as being who you think he is.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2008,00:51) Hi Stu,
That contempt for simplicity has been the barrier for intellectuals since Christ.
Most intellectuals are unhappy with the thought of being born again.
But that is the only door, the door of Christ.
Once more, Nick puts forward the idea that Christianity is not for intelligent people.Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 14 2008,00:32) I likely understand what the scriptures are supposed to mean more than you
Nick has been on here a very long time and knows his Scripture very well. You make such prideful and arrogant, assumptions.Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 13 2008,07:35) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 14 2008,00:32) I likely understand what the scriptures are supposed to mean more than you
Nick has been on here a very long time and knows his Scripture very well. You make such prideful and arrogant, assumptions.
Chap,90% of his responses show personal philosophy and predictable dogma rather than scriptural knowledge. His main ploy against what I post is that I don't believe this, don't believe that. Yet he says he does but cannot refute what I post with scriptural evidence.
That is why I make this statement.
Hey I found this site that may be of some interest. Check it out if you want…
http://www.gotquestions.org/bible-covenants.html
Hi Stu,
You say
“Those are childish, wishful fantasies, “
How can you say this?
Were you there?
Others were.Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 14 2008,00:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2008,00:51) Hi Stu,
That contempt for simplicity has been the barrier for intellectuals since Christ.
Most intellectuals are unhappy with the thought of being born again.
But that is the only door, the door of Christ.
Once more, Nick puts forward the idea that Christianity is not for intelligent people.
Intelligent people according to their understanding in the flesh?1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Does you intelligence understand the above scripture?
You don't know TOW! But you have swayed those who knew but were weak in faith and sought to be wise in their own mind. But now have become fools in their own understanding that they once had.
And to them that Now deny Christ:
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
But as Christ forgave Paul He will forgive you WHEN you are finished and if you repent. But for them it is impossible. Proud of yourself, perhaps now but OH! How deep will your sorrow be!
God help you!
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jo 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.Hi Tow
“What's sad is that you say it took spiritual understanding to figure out what this meant, so I guess you are saying there were others who did not follow him that had a better understanding:”
Absolutely.
2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
2 Corinthians 11:30
If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
1 Corinthians 1:25
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.The priests and scribes even knew where the messiah was to be born but did not bother to travel there.
Mt2
4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.5And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2008,11:30) Hi Tow
“What's sad is that you say it took spiritual understanding to figure out what this meant, so I guess you are saying there were others who did not follow him that had a better understanding:”
Absolutely.
2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
2 Corinthians 11:30
If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
1 Corinthians 1:25
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.The priests and scribes even knew where the messiah was to be born but did not bother to travel there.
Mt2
4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.5And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel
Too bad Mic 5:2 (5:1 in Jewish translations) was merely a reinforcement of whose tribe the King Messiah would belong to, not the physical birth location.Mic 5:1 (JPT) And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah-you should have been the lowest of the clans of Judah-from you [he] shall emerge for Me, to be a ruler over Israel; and his origin is from of old, from days of yore.
But in their attempts to legitimize Jesus, Matthew and Luke went out of their way to have Jesus born in Bethlehem. Matthew has Mary and Joseph supposedly already living there, Luke has them travelling there. Matthew has them in a house, Luke has them in a barn or some other place with a manger. Who has a manger in a house?
Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 13 2008,11:21) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 14 2008,00:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2008,00:51) Hi Stu,
That contempt for simplicity has been the barrier for intellectuals since Christ.
Most intellectuals are unhappy with the thought of being born again.
But that is the only door, the door of Christ.
Once more, Nick puts forward the idea that Christianity is not for intelligent people.
Intelligent people according to their understanding in the flesh?No, this is not the first time he paints a picture of Jesus' followers being mentally deficient.
Quote 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Does you intelligence understand the above scripture?
Yeah it means that Paul had some who laughed at him so he tried to insult them like most Christians do of those who don't believe in Jesus.
Quote You don't know TOW! But you have swayed those who knew but were weak in faith and sought to be wise in their own mind. But now have become fools in their own understanding that they once had. How nice of you to insult people rather than trying to show love and understanding towards them. Your attitude is one that drives many away from your faith. I know people with your attitude made me think twice before I started investigating.
Quote And to them that Now deny Christ: Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
But as Christ forgave Paul He will forgive you WHEN you are finished and if you repent. But for them it is impossible. Proud of yourself, perhaps now but OH! How deep will your sorrow be!
God help you!
Repent of what? Proving Jesus was nothing more than a street preacher?Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 13 2008,11:22) 1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jo 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
Oh no, 67% of the earth are antichrists and liars!Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 14 2008,04:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2008,11:30) Hi Tow
“What's sad is that you say it took spiritual understanding to figure out what this meant, so I guess you are saying there were others who did not follow him that had a better understanding:”
Absolutely.
2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
2 Corinthians 11:30
If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
1 Corinthians 1:25
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.The priests and scribes even knew where the messiah was to be born but did not bother to travel there.
Mt2
4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.5And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel
Too bad Mic 5:2 (5:1 in Jewish translations) was merely a reinforcement of whose tribe the King Messiah would belong to, not the physical birth location.Mic 5:1 (JPT) And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah-you should have been the lowest of the clans of Judah-from you [he] shall emerge for Me, to be a ruler over Israel; and his origin is from of old, from days of yore.
But in their attempts to legitimize Jesus, Matthew and Luke went out of their way to have Jesus born in Bethlehem. Matthew has Mary and Joseph supposedly already living there, Luke has them travelling there. Matthew has them in a house, Luke has them in a barn or some other place with a manger. Who has a manger in a house?
Hi Tow,
Some sort of conspiracy?
To gain what?
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